Originally posted by Professor78

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by DarkPony
 

- Crafting and re-engineering; to discover higher tiered versions of those recipes as well as having procs on individual crafting products adds a lot of depth and specialization to crafting.

EQ2 had several versions of the same item, tiered, probably EQ1 also. And proccing ect.

- Exploring for stat increases: datacrons & matrix cubes. And how some of them are hidden is simply brilliant world design.

EQ2 and  RIFT massive amounts and collection/set rewards, achievements ect. bound to loads more that have this but wana go for a bath!

Thank you Dark, you took the words out of my mouth with the companions and crafting. This is new. I've played every god damn MMO since Ultima and Eq1 and I've never seen a comparable companion or crafting system. 

 

{mod edit}

Like you said its hard to say if something really is different, it will have ties to some other game somewhere. But for apart from large VO and a more in depth pet system its not alot different from others compared to the several times more money they have invested in it, they must have run out when they came to getting the graphics half decent!

EQ2 definitely does not have the same crafting / reverse engineering system, or even anything remotely like it. It has a 'transmuting' which is basically just a copy of WoWs enchanting - which is not even close to the SWTOR system. The 'higher tiers' are just the difference between normal crafting and mastercrafting, based entirely on harvesting a rare component from a world node. The advanced recipes are drops, not learnt from reverse engineering products you can already make.

Also the EQ2 shiny system doesnt encourage exploration, they are just randomly spread throughout an area. They also do nothing for character progression and are mostly fluff house items or leveling gear.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by BadSpock

The use of companions to craft and run missions is, to my knowledge, new to the genre.

EvE has time based "crafting foreman vs. crafter" but not companions or sending them on missions.

I can't think of any MMO that has companions you can send on missions to gather materials/items.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4674771

Who the F cares about what Grand Fantasia does?

I've never even HEARD of that game.

I mean, I stand corrected but seriously? OP's intentions were obvious, didn't actually care if anything we new or different in TOR just another pointless troll/flame thread.

 Just cause You didn't hear of a game doesn't make it not matter, just an FYI Grand Fantasia has just opened a new server with 5 new channels cause of its population and release yet another expansion, so obviously someone has heard of it. OP intention is whatever the commenter wants it to be to them, you see it as a troll, others see it as a question, again the world doesn't revolve around your views.

Originally posted by Vato26

Actually, wormywyrm is totally correct.  This is because he is basing that the whole gaming experience in other mmorpg's is the story.  Other mmorpg's do not have the story explicityly thrown to the players like in SWTOR... it's what the players do that is the story.  So, players in groups that make decisions on what to do with their group time does, in fact, affect those players' stories.

And, before you start spouting the "We are not talking about a sandbox!" card, this applies to themepark mmorpgs as well.  What the player does with their gametime IS their own story.

No what worm and now you are doing is splitting hairs. Why would I need to bring sandboxes into this discussion? As was said earlier you are simply moving the goal post and not much else with such an argument. There's a huge difference between a player's "story", and the "story" in TOR...

Your argument would be like me saying DE's in GW2 are nothing new, open world PVP is just as dynamic, you walk around and find a battle going on. Which is not even remotely the same thing.

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

Nothing to complain about when it's free.

You hit the nail in the head.

And those games are always fresh because it's your hand-eye-coordination that matters and almost all situations are about reactions and knowledge of the playground. Hardly any dicerolling there, just physical training.

FPS have been simplified a lot to suite console gamers, but gladly PC versions still quite a lot rely on the true aiming.

How is this relevant to whether or not the game is fun?  Or are you just looking to stir people up?

Give me one reason I should give a damn if it doesn't. Oh and it has to be a major reason that matters to me. Not some reason that matters to the majority of gamers or isn't so completely game breaking it wouldn't cause every person on earth to reject the game.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Vato26

Actually, wormywyrm is totally correct.  This is because he is basing that the whole gaming experience in other mmorpg's is the story.  Other mmorpg's do not have the story explicityly thrown to the players like in SWTOR... it's what the players do that is the story.  So, players in groups that make decisions on what to do with their group time does, in fact, affect those players' stories.

And, before you start spouting the "We are not talking about a sandbox!" card, this applies to themepark mmorpgs as well.  What the player does with their gametime IS their own story.

No what worm and now you are doing is splitting hairs. Why would I need to bring sandboxes into this discussion? As was said earlier you are simply moving the goal post and not much else with such an argument. There's a huge difference between a player's "story", and the "story" in TOR...

Your argument would be like me saying DE's in GW2 are nothing new, open world PVP is just as dynamic, you walk around and find a battle going on. Which is not even remotely the same thing.

 

Anything in the game that you can do affects your story.  The story that you create while playing the game.  And, the story is decided through actions of the player.  Regardless if it's overt story, like SWTOR's cutscenes, or just a person meandering about to do whatever they want... it's all the same.  They are creating their story through their choices.  

I'm sorry you can't see it, but what I am stating is completely factual.

How about planets that have perpetual daylight without getting cooked?

 Perhaps the OP....would grace us with an answer on.....whats WOW done.....or Rift.......  or(fill in the blank).........or is your intent to just post a hit piece in the form of a question... on the merits of SWTOR ?

I could however listed 100s of things they did only 50% complete.

SWTOR did nothing but show why we need to move to making true MMOs again.

Originally posted by Pelaaja

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

Nothing to complain about when it's free.

You hit the nail in the head.

And those games are always fresh because it's your hand-eye-coordination that matters and almost all situations are about reactions and knowledge of the playground. Hardly any dicerolling there, just physical training.

FPS have been simplified a lot to suite console gamers, but gladly PC versions still quite a lot rely on the true aiming.

It doesn't matter what the mechanics are.  The Op is arguing that this game doesn't have anything new.  Ok, so fair question.  But this question could get asked about any game of any genre, and most games (even great ones) would not have anything completely new, which is what the OP wants.

SWTOR has some new concepts.  Some are drawn or heavilly expanded from other games.  The complete voice over, whether other mmos have voice overs or not, is completely new.  No other game has the ridiculouly enormous amount of voicing that this game has.  No other MMO has even attempted to voice every single line (with very few exceptions, obviously if you find a datapad on the ground, it won't start talking).   That's just naming one thing.

Originally posted by Vato26

 

Anything in the game that you can do affects your story.  The story that you create while playing the game.  And, the story is decided through actions of the player.  Regardless if it's overt story, like SWTOR's cutscenes, or just a person meandering about to do whatever they want... it's all the same.  They are creating their story through their choices.  

I'm sorry you can't see it, but what I am stating is completely factual.

The problem isn't not being able to see it, it's the correlation you're trying to present. The question was simple, the reply was simple. No other MMO has a "written" story with branching paths of that story in the way TOR does. You're trying to say that's the same thing as the day to day activities and decisons a player may make while playing. It's not...

Originally posted by Thorbrand

I could however listed 100s of things they did only 50% complete.

SWTOR did nothing but show why we need to move to making true MMOs again.

Complete in your eyes, just because the game dosn't conform to your ideals doesn't make it 50% complete.  Are there issues with the game like every other game?  You bet but you also seem to ignore that we are three weeks into launch.

When is your game being released?

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Vato26

 

Anything in the game that you can do affects your story.  The story that you create while playing the game.  And, the story is decided through actions of the player.  Regardless if it's overt story, like SWTOR's cutscenes, or just a person meandering about to do whatever they want... it's all the same.  They are creating their story through their choices.  

I'm sorry you can't see it, but what I am stating is completely factual.

The problem isn't not being able to see it, it's the correlation you're trying to present. The question was simple, the reply was simple. No other MMO has a "written" story with branching paths of that story in the way TOR does. You're trying to say that's the same thing as the day to day activities and decisons a player may make while playing. It's not...

It is.  Because the players' choices allow them to experience what they wish to experience.  Experience their own story.

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by Pelaaja

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

Nothing to complain about when it's free.

You hit the nail in the head.

And those games are always fresh because it's your hand-eye-coordination that matters and almost all situations are about reactions and knowledge of the playground. Hardly any dicerolling there, just physical training.

FPS have been simplified a lot to suite console gamers, but gladly PC versions still quite a lot rely on the true aiming.

It doesn't matter what the mechanics are.  The Op is arguing that this game doesn't have anything new.  Ok, so fair question.  But this question could get asked about any game of any genre, and most games (even great ones) would not have anything completely new, which is what the OP wants.

SWTOR has some new concepts.  Some are drawn or heavilly expanded from other games.  The complete voice over, whether other mmos have voice overs or not, is completely new.  No other game has the ridiculouly enormous amount of voicing that this game has.  No other MMO has even attempted to voice every single line (with very few exceptions, obviously if you find a datapad on the ground, it won't start talking).   That's just naming one thing.

I was kind of answering to your question, but here's take two.

Generally FPS-players don't complain about the games. There's few, of course, but generally the forum complaining isn't usual to the genre. Buy, like/don't like, ditch, next game. It must be because in FPS games you don't develop your character and try to attach into it. There has come mechanics like character development to FPS games too (unlocks as they say), but I really hope those will die soon and we can get back to good old CounterStrike-style killing.

Don't know if mechanics make any difference, but quick peek to WWII Online -forums didn't reveal same kind of discussion we see on any MMORPG forums.

SW:ToR on the other hand doesn't offer new concepts. It does, though, offer a new soup with seasoning. Sadly, they just made 16 episodes (class quests) of Clonewars.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by Distopia

The problem isn't not being able to see it, it's the correlation you're trying to present. The question was simple, the reply was simple. No other MMO has a "written" story with branching paths of that story in the way TOR does. You're trying to say that's the same thing as the day to day activities and decisons a player may make while playing. It's not...

It is.  Because the players' choices allow them to experience what they wish to experience.  Experience their own story.

What you're describing is playing the game, at least when it comes to free-form RPG or MMO game-play. That in no shape or form is the same thing as a cinematically told story, which is what this aspect of TOR is.

What you're saying would be the equivalent of stating "running around the world in Skyrim and deciding where to go next, is the same thing as deciding the way the story unfolds in Mass Effect". These are two completely different things, one is player created and 100% player defined, the other is a semi-linear progression controlled by a wrtier and the limitations they've put in place. With that I'm done with this exchange.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Pelaaja

I was kind of answering to your question, but here's take two.

Generally FPS-players don't complain about the games. There's few, of course, but generally the forum complaining isn't usual to the genre. Buy, like/don't like, ditch, next game. It must be because in FPS games you don't develop your character and try to attach into it. There has come mechanics like character development to FPS games too (unlocks as they say), but I really hope those will die soon and we can get back to good old CounterStrike-style killing.

Don't know if mechanics make any difference, but quick peek to WWII Online -forums didn't reveal same kind of discussion we see on any MMORPG forums.

SW:ToR on the other hand doesn't offer new concepts. It does, though, offer a new soup with seasoning. Sadly, they just made 16 episodes (class quests) of Clonewars.

I understand what you're saying when you say that how fps games (and any other genre) are different.  My question to you is why there would need to be new things in MMOs, and not in other kind of games.  You did talk about character development but I don't see how this is a reason why there needs to be anything new.

There should be a difference between completely new, which is what the OP wants, and rethought, or done differently, which is what SWTOR does imo (and which is what WoW did in the past)  Great games take old concepts and presents them differently.

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by Pelaaja

I was kind of answering to your question, but here's take two.

Generally FPS-players don't complain about the games. There's few, of course, but generally the forum complaining isn't usual to the genre. Buy, like/don't like, ditch, next game. It must be because in FPS games you don't develop your character and try to attach into it. There has come mechanics like character development to FPS games too (unlocks as they say), but I really hope those will die soon and we can get back to good old CounterStrike-style killing.

Don't know if mechanics make any difference, but quick peek to WWII Online -forums didn't reveal same kind of discussion we see on any MMORPG forums.

SW:ToR on the other hand doesn't offer new concepts. It does, though, offer a new soup with seasoning. Sadly, they just made 16 episodes (class quests) of Clonewars.

I understand what you're saying when you say that how fps games (and any other genre) are different.  My question to you is why there would need to be new things in MMOs, and not in other kind of games.  You did talk about character development but I don't see how this is a reason why there needs to be anything new.

There should be a difference between completely new, which is what the OP wants, and rethought, or done differently, which is what SWTOR does imo (and which is what WoW did in the past)  Great games take old concepts and presents them differently.

You're right MMOs don't really need all new inventions. That I don't argue with.

And taking old concepts and presenting them differently isn't bad, as long as that differently is done better than those where they were drawn. In other words, the soup has to have that fresh taste and texture althought it's the same peasoup.

How I see it, the most important thing for a MMO launching today is momentum. That momentum is right when there's certain amount of need for another thing (or new thing, if you like). Don't know if the momentum was right for SW:ToR, only time will tell.

Then there's other things to consider too. You can't launch an MMO without airbag these days (car analogy, they are kind of cliché but what the hey). The industry has evolved to have certain standards and if you don't have them in your game, you're out. SW:ToR is lacking quite a many of these, but they might have until 3 Mo mark to add those to keep the players in.

MMO players are a very demanding audience. Of course, there is people who have played WoW and think they're MMO-players but they really aren't. Those are the people that will forgive the company those little and major faults in the game and sing their joy of having fun in the game on boards. And after a month or three they're gone, because it wasn't the steerability they liked about the game, but that new game smell (another car analogy, sorry).

MMO players on the other hand might get into the hype, but in general are able to see the game objectively. They are the ones that write well structured reviews about games on these boards. Of course there's those jaded players who are totally tired of trying to open kittens eyelids and come bluntly forward with their observations, which leads to forumwars and flamethrowers.

Back to adopting things from old games. I really don't understand why the devs these days don't adopt the most important thing old games had. They had at least 6 month timespan to reach level cap. You might say it's a grind if you do it that way, but I say if you have that thing in your game the player will feel it's an accomplishment if you reach that cap after half a year instead of todays "four alts at cap in the 1st month" -style. That's what WoW did (I've been told), and that might be the reason why people are still drawn into that game.

Originally posted by Pelaaja

 I really don't understand why the devs these days don't adopt the most important thing old games had. They had at least 6 month timespan to reach level cap. You might say it's a grind if you do it that way, but I say if you have that thing in your game the player will feel it's an accomplishment if you reach that cap after half a year instead of todays "four alts at cap in the 1st month" -style. That's what WoW did (I've been told), and that might be the reason why people are still drawn into that game.

I'm not really sure why they do this either; it's like they're begging people to hit the cap before the first month is up, which is odd when you consider they should be doing everything to ensure that people resub. Levelling in SWTOR is too fast for my tastes - there's a ton of content that I keep outlevelling it before I get to it - I don't actually want to hit the level cap in the first month.

I know some people quit games if they seem too hard, or they'll take too long to 'win', but the levelling curve of all the recent MMO's seems very shallow to me - even established games like CoH have rejigged the curve to make levelling trivial.

It's like all the MMO devs have bought into the ridiculous 'the game starts at end-game' myth, and decided to apply it to their games.