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News & Features Discussion  » Ultima Online: Fifteen Years & Counting

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84 posts found
  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

1/10/12 8:50:11 AM#61

Have they considered making it into an iPad app, yet?

 

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 679

1/10/12 9:00:35 AM#62
Originally posted by Vhaln

Have they considered making it into an iPad app, yet?

 

You jest....

 

Richard Garriot has stated that his intention is to make his new "Spiritual Successor to UO" MMO a game that plays across all platforms, including iOS & Android.

  Invintion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 28

1/10/12 9:03:03 AM#63

Originally posted by RajCaj


 



With that said, I don't buy the argument that PKers drove people away from UO.  They had a whole "carebear" version of the world all to themselves to play in without worrying about player killers.


 





 


I loved "old school UO", even as a player that is not driven by PVP, the "wild-west" feel you describe is defintely great for the MMO push to not venture out alone.  That being said, I do feel that it is best to keep this open world pvp to a level where the player has been able to grow to a point they could manage to compete with either similar or higher levels.  This can be done thru the common flagging systems of today or by the UO regulation we saw of guard zones.


Something about the timing in regards to when you refer to the Tram Xpac for UO.  if I'm not mistaken, the release of EQ (which was more catering to a beginner and much less threatening) and the UO expansion which split the worlds are very curiously coinciding.


~V~


  User Deleted
1/10/12 9:08:44 AM#64
Originally posted by Amaranthar

One thing a lot of people don't know about UO's subscription numbers. They had a lot of gamers try the game. Just as many, or nearly, as EQ and other games until WoW brought in that huge influx. It was the rampant PKing that drove most of them out right away. If not for the PKing, Sandbox would probably be looked at with much more hope for subscription numbers, at least on an equal basis with Themepark. And this kills me every time I think about it.

Can you point out to me the source information you are using to back up the fact that a great deal of gamers turned away from sandbox games because of rampant pking in UO? For a start non MUD mmorpgs where still in their infancy in the pre tram days, to somehow think that there was a massive crowd already there playing and then quitting seems inherently incorrect.

 

SWG doesn't really fit into that remit either, given it was a sandbox without pking (ignoring the Jedi system). Nor does EVE, given it is successful and has pking in it.

 

Moreoever the actual increase in subs UO gained post Tram was not really much over what you would have expected given the rise in internet access for gamers, the awareness of the mmorpg genre and the bump in subs seen with major expansions.

 

EQ (which you touched upon)and the rise of the more graphically orientated mmorpgs (followed by more single player/casual centric mmos) is what "did for" UO in terms of it being a major market share holder. The ismoetric world was simply behind the times and the majority of gamers new to the genre wanted 3D.

 

UO is for me certainly the greatest mmo there has been, but it is not what it once was and that boils down to what occurred with "the split". If you removed the pking/ffa from EVE it would still probably go on, but it would be a mockery of the game it once was and that is exactly what happened to UO.

 

That is not to say there wasn't issues with pking of course.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 679

1/10/12 9:34:21 AM#65
Originally posted by Invintion

Originally posted by RajCaj


 



With that said, I don't buy the argument that PKers drove people away from UO.  They had a whole "carebear" version of the world all to themselves to play in without worrying about player killers.


 





 

I loved "old school UO", even as a player that is not driven by PVP, the "wild-west" feel you describe is defintely great for the MMO push to not venture out alone.  That being said, I do feel that it is best to keep this open world pvp to a level where the player has been able to grow to a point they could manage to compete with either similar or higher levels.  This can be done thru the common flagging systems of today or by the UO regulation we saw of guard zones.


Something about the timing in regards to when you refer to the Tram Xpac for UO.  if I'm not mistaken, the release of EQ (which was more catering to a beginner and much less threatening) and the UO expansion which split the worlds are very curiously coinciding.


~V~

I obviously can't speak for everyone that "graduated" to PvPing in UO, but from my personal experience in UO....Trammel was an important step in my maturation as a MMO gamer.

 

The protections that Trammel offered allowed me to get my MMO legs under me and get proficient at playing my character.  After my skills were raised to a level that I could compete with other players, I got board with the predictable AI the monsters in the game had. 

It was that point where I moved to Felucia for the next challenge....playing against the ultimate AI, other people.  Even PvEing in the Felucia zone was MUCH more entertaining due to threat associated with playing in that "Wild West" environment. 

With that said, the progression I made may have not come if I weren't able to get myself aclimated to the game in the lands of Trammel (where there are more protections for new players)

 

Contrast that with games like Darkfall that smack newbies over the head with a blunt weapon as soon as they step out of town.  Not saying that MMOs have to cow-tow to new or less experienced players....but they should alteast provide for the opprotunity for players to grow to a point where they willingly look for additional challenges in a FFA environment.  The Trammel / Felucia system as a PvP switch was a lazy way to fix the problem, but effective none the less.

  Illyssia

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 1523

1/10/12 9:35:48 AM#66
Originally posted by RajCaj
Originally posted by Vhaln

Have they considered making it into an iPad app, yet?

 

You jest....

 

Richard Garriot has stated that his intention is to make his new "Spiritual Successor to UO" MMO a game that plays across all platforms, including iOS & Android.

Facebook does indeed play on most platforms.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

1/10/12 12:06:49 PM#67

For the record 

Ultima Online Renissance launched in 2000

Ultima Online hit it's highest peak in subscribers in 2003

Ultima Online Age of Shadows was launched in 2003 

After Age of Shadows the steady decline began

 

Trammerl didn't kill UO, people wouldn't sit around for 3 years in a game that no longer appealed to them. 

Age of Shadows and the insane itemization did. 

 

If Trammel killed UO it wouldn't have peaked 3 years after it happened lol. While some of us (Myself included) enjoyed the FFA PvP the fact remains that far from all players do. When persistent characters are involved the majority out there do not FFA PvP. The Tram/Fel split was an excellent answer to this as the PvP'rs were able to continue PvP'ing and the trammies got to stay safe and PvE. It was a steady rise after the fel/tram split up until Age of Shadows. 

 

You can say UO's hayday was before trammel but thats the opinion of only a few UO's hayday was from 2000-2003. After that it was all down hill. 

 

While you personally may disagree the fact remains that UO's popularity increased when Tram hit. 

  Ozmodan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6562

1/10/12 12:21:12 PM#68
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

For the record 

Ultima Online Renissance launched in 2000

Ultima Online hit it's highest peak in subscribers in 2003

Ultima Online Age of Shadows was launched in 2003 

After Age of Shadows the steady decline began

 

Trammerl didn't kill UO, people wouldn't sit around for 3 years in a game that no longer appealed to them. 

Age of Shadows and the insane itemization did. 

 

If Trammel killed UO it wouldn't have peaked 3 years after it happened lol. While some of us (Myself included) enjoyed the FFA PvP the fact remains that far from all players do. When persistent characters are involved the majority out there do not FFA PvP. The Tram/Fel split was an excellent answer to this as the PvP'rs were able to continue PvP'ing and the trammies got to stay safe and PvE. It was a steady rise after the fel/tram split up until Age of Shadows. 

 

You can say UO's hayday was before trammel but thats the opinion of only a few UO's hayday was from 2000-2003. After that it was all down hill. 

 

While you personally may disagree the fact remains that UO's popularity increased when Tram hit. 

This!

UO had huge server and bug issues after Age of Shadows was released.  Took them 2-3 months to get things stablized.  The itemization issues just enhanced the exodus.  Lances were so bugged that they were immediately FOTM and it took them quite a while to fix that problem.  

UO did not need itemization.  Another example of developers messing with success to come up with a disfunctional game.

The most important thing about a pvp game that has item loss, is to keep replacement equipment cheap.  Even with insurance it became very expensive to outfit your avatar after that.  Became very expensive to make anything useful too.

  User Deleted
1/10/12 12:26:34 PM#69
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar

One thing a lot of people don't know about UO's subscription numbers. They had a lot of gamers try the game. Just as many, or nearly, as EQ and other games until WoW brought in that huge influx. It was the rampant PKing that drove most of them out right away. If not for the PKing, Sandbox would probably be looked at with much more hope for subscription numbers, at least on an equal basis with Themepark. And this kills me every time I think about it.

Can you point out to me the source information you are using to back up the fact that a great deal of gamers turned away from sandbox games because of rampant pking in UO? For a start non MUD mmorpgs where still in their infancy in the pre tram days, to somehow think that there was a massive crowd already there playing and then quitting seems inherently incorrect.

 

SWG doesn't really fit into that remit either, given it was a sandbox without pking (ignoring the Jedi system). Nor does EVE, given it is successful and has pking in it.

 

Moreoever the actual increase in subs UO gained post Tram was not really much over what you would have expected given the rise in internet access for gamers, the awareness of the mmorpg genre and the bump in subs seen with major expansions.

 

EQ (which you touched upon)and the rise of the more graphically orientated mmorpgs (followed by more single player/casual centric mmos) is what "did for" UO in terms of it being a major market share holder. The ismoetric world was simply behind the times and the majority of gamers new to the genre wanted 3D.

 

UO is for me certainly the greatest mmo there has been, but it is not what it once was and that boils down to what occurred with "the split". If you removed the pking/ffa from EVE it would still probably go on, but it would be a mockery of the game it once was and that is exactly what happened to UO.

 

That is not to say there wasn't issues with pking of course.

No, I can't support that statement. My sources are lost on the internet or gone.

What I can tell you is this. I've seen several statements to this effect from the original big dogs at UO, Koster for sure, and I think Garriott and Star Long, but maybe others instead.

Raph Koster posted as Holocron on the SWG boards before release that the numbers of players that left UO directly because of PKing was in the 6 figures. So anywhere from 100,000 to something short of a million that left UO directly because of rampant PKing. I think it's safe to say that it was on the short end of that range, but that's quite a number.

One of these guys said in an interview once (I think it was Long, but it might have been a later big wig) that UO had more than a million gamers try it, but most leaving. But I don't know the time frame there, it could have been over 5 years, I just don't know. But also, all these games have a lot of players try them out and leave. One of WoW's developers that talked about the percentages of keepers more than a few months, and how low it was for all of them, even WoW. It was something in the 20%-25% range for WoW. The hidden numbers out there are much larger than we gamers know because they aren't talked about much.

But I don't have links, and I've tried before to find these things without luck, so I'm not going to even try now.

Let me add that EQ came out only 1 year after UO. Their numbers were quite a bit larger. Do you think that there was that much of a new community of gamers that knew nothing about UO? In one year? And if said community did grow that much, was it because they were aware of UO, the first truly massive MMORPG and heavily in the gaming news, or not?

One of my biggest regrets in my time playing MMORPGs is the fact that I've been unable to get PvPers as whole to realize their affect on their games. And I've tried for quite a few years. I mean, all you have to do is look at what happened to any game or server that allowed wide open PvP. UO (until Trammel was added), UO's PvP Felucca, AC's Darktide server, Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, all of them. They may have started well, but al started sufefring the hemorrhage of attrition as players found out that they aren't going to be King of the Hill, and there's no room for any other play in such an environment.

You know, you just can't have meaningfull PvP as part of a game world unless PvPers give something. But PvPers won't give. Neither will non-PvPers. I can offer you a system that makes PvP meaningfull in one world, and separates the PvPers from non-PvPers, through the use of a "military" function in guilds and adding a separate supply chain/resources/territory (a combined system) to fight for, but I've been shot down before so I won't bother now.

  Invintion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 28

1/10/12 12:34:42 PM#70

I don't believe anyone tried to say that the tram xpac was UO's downfall.  It was merely a turning point where the many generations of UO players differ greatly in schools of thought.

Personally, I have done plenty of stocking my house with multiple sets of banged out armor, guild colored clothing, and reagent bags for recovery situations in hopes you could retrieve the goods from the PK or that are soon to decay on your corpse in the dungeon. 

When they took away the fear of gear loss, and introduced lower reagent cost (I NEVER want to go back!), I adapted and happily hoarded those pixels of jewelry and armors that I might use for one of my characters or my friend's guildmate's cousin who just started.. or that noob that I saw sweating so hard chopping wood to build their first house that the axe mightve flown out of their hands! ~V~

  MacroHard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 105

1/10/12 5:14:47 PM#71

perhaps it wasn't feasible to continue to poor heavy investment into the title a handful of years down the road.  So instead EA appeared to keep UO as a bank that was dwindling every year and put limited funds into that arrangement - instead of trying to keep it going full-fludged for years and years to come.  Eventually all games die.  No one knows when. 


  User Deleted
1/10/12 5:31:47 PM#72
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar

One thing a lot of people don't know about UO's subscription numbers. They had a lot of gamers try the game. Just as many, or nearly, as EQ and other games until WoW brought in that huge influx. It was the rampant PKing that drove most of them out right away. If not for the PKing, Sandbox would probably be looked at with much more hope for subscription numbers, at least on an equal basis with Themepark. And this kills me every time I think about it.

Can you point out to me the source information you are using to back up the fact that a great deal of gamers turned away from sandbox games because of rampant pking in UO? For a start non MUD mmorpgs where still in their infancy in the pre tram days, to somehow think that there was a massive crowd already there playing and then quitting seems inherently incorrect.

 

SWG doesn't really fit into that remit either, given it was a sandbox without pking (ignoring the Jedi system). Nor does EVE, given it is successful and has pking in it.

 

Moreoever the actual increase in subs UO gained post Tram was not really much over what you would have expected given the rise in internet access for gamers, the awareness of the mmorpg genre and the bump in subs seen with major expansions.

 

EQ (which you touched upon)and the rise of the more graphically orientated mmorpgs (followed by more single player/casual centric mmos) is what "did for" UO in terms of it being a major market share holder. The ismoetric world was simply behind the times and the majority of gamers new to the genre wanted 3D.

 

UO is for me certainly the greatest mmo there has been, but it is not what it once was and that boils down to what occurred with "the split". If you removed the pking/ffa from EVE it would still probably go on, but it would be a mockery of the game it once was and that is exactly what happened to UO.

 

That is not to say there wasn't issues with pking of course.

No, I can't support that statement. My sources are lost on the internet or gone.

What I can tell you is this. I've seen several statements to this effect from the original big dogs at UO, Koster for sure, and I think Garriott and Star Long, but maybe others instead.

Raph Koster posted as Holocron on the SWG boards before release that the numbers of players that left UO directly because of PKing was in the 6 figures. So anywhere from 100,000 to something short of a million that left UO directly because of rampant PKing. I think it's safe to say that it was on the short end of that range, but that's quite a number.

One of these guys said in an interview once (I think it was Long, but it might have been a later big wig) that UO had more than a million gamers try it, but most leaving. But I don't know the time frame there, it could have been over 5 years, I just don't know. But also, all these games have a lot of players try them out and leave. One of WoW's developers that talked about the percentages of keepers more than a few months, and how low it was for all of them, even WoW. It was something in the 20%-25% range for WoW. The hidden numbers out there are much larger than we gamers know because they aren't talked about much.

But I don't have links, and I've tried before to find these things without luck, so I'm not going to even try now.

Let me add that EQ came out only 1 year after UO. Their numbers were quite a bit larger. Do you think that there was that much of a new community of gamers that knew nothing about UO? In one year? And if said community did grow that much, was it because they were aware of UO, the first truly massive MMORPG and heavily in the gaming news, or not?

One of my biggest regrets in my time playing MMORPGs is the fact that I've been unable to get PvPers as whole to realize their affect on their games. And I've tried for quite a few years. I mean, all you have to do is look at what happened to any game or server that allowed wide open PvP. UO (until Trammel was added), UO's PvP Felucca, AC's Darktide server, Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, all of them. They may have started well, but al started sufefring the hemorrhage of attrition as players found out that they aren't going to be King of the Hill, and there's no room for any other play in such an environment.

You know, you just can't have meaningfull PvP as part of a game world unless PvPers give something. But PvPers won't give. Neither will non-PvPers. I can offer you a system that makes PvP meaningfull in one world, and separates the PvPers from non-PvPers, through the use of a "military" function in guilds and adding a separate supply chain/resources/territory (a combined system) to fight for, but I've been shot down before so I won't bother now.


To suggest that all the subs, or even the majority of them (in SWG) came purely from people who had rejected UO due to pking is a leap into the realms of fantasy. Frankly if Koster said that it numbered 6 figures who left UO purely due to pking then all the data that is on the net with regards to subs must be totally and utterly false to a factor of about 10. Which is unlikely.

 

All the data that you can still access on the net, actually points to the sub numbers steadily increasing over time up until the point the pleothora of more graphically advanced and all round less complex mmos came to dominate the market.

 

EQ was indeed just after UO, but it heralded a new dawn which clearly appealed to a larger userbase. Not everyone rushed to it from UO because not everyone was playing UO in the first place. That is not surprising given how new the genre was to the market place still and how few (when compared to now) people actually played mmorpgs.

 

i'm not debating the pros and cons of ffa here, I just think you are being somewhat hyperbolic with regards to your thoughts on the negative impact UO's ffa stage had upon the sandbox market place.

  HolaHola

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/08
Posts: 68

1/10/12 5:45:53 PM#73

Ultima Online is to me the best MMORPG made too this days, and even with some wrong turns it is still the best one out there (which is sad).

Played it on and off for 10 years, and nothing came or comes close to it. People often says AoS destroyed it, well it changed, and not for the better at that time, but today its a really really solid games which could work for the masses if it just got a new updated client with new graphics (still keep top-down view else its not UO) and UI.

Playing: League of Legends!

  Vagelisp

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/05
Posts: 446

1/10/12 6:00:49 PM#74

Why don't you improve the game's Graphics for God's sake?! This is a hudge drawback for almost every player including old farts like me who played it from 1997. I got spoiled by the 3D areas of EQ and so forth and i am sure that there are many other people who feel like i do.

I know that UO is still the "WOW" of sandbox mmorpgs and there is still not a chance to find a "modern" mmo that has 10% of its features. Why don't you take advantage of UO's unique features and evolve the game as it deserves?

 

 

  AirmidCecht

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/12
Posts: 4

1/10/12 6:26:10 PM#75

Because they risk losing a bulk (not all) of their current subscribers who prefer 2D and what's considered a classic client. Kingdom Reborn was the first attempt at a compromised solution but was 1.implemented way too early and 2. not promoted properly.  The new Enhanced Client is a slow build this time with lots of input from players. Pinco's UI is a great example of taking the EC and tweaking it. We are already seeing more screen shots and in game videos taken with the EC than ever before which means slow and steady does win the race :)


Sosaria Reels is UO based videos with both CC and EC featured if you want to compare. It comes with a warning though that this is not your bells and whistles graphics in either case but it will highlight the subtle differences as well as a look at different shards. 


 


Airmid (Karina)
https://twitter.com/#!/KarinasTweets

  User Deleted
1/10/12 6:37:34 PM#76
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar

One thing a lot of people don't know about UO's subscription numbers. They had a lot of gamers try the game. Just as many, or nearly, as EQ and other games until WoW brought in that huge influx. It was the rampant PKing that drove most of them out right away. If not for the PKing, Sandbox would probably be looked at with much more hope for subscription numbers, at least on an equal basis with Themepark. And this kills me every time I think about it.

Can you point out to me the source information you are using to back up the fact that a great deal of gamers turned away from sandbox games because of rampant pking in UO? For a start non MUD mmorpgs where still in their infancy in the pre tram days, to somehow think that there was a massive crowd already there playing and then quitting seems inherently incorrect.

 

SWG doesn't really fit into that remit either, given it was a sandbox without pking (ignoring the Jedi system). Nor does EVE, given it is successful and has pking in it.

 

Moreoever the actual increase in subs UO gained post Tram was not really much over what you would have expected given the rise in internet access for gamers, the awareness of the mmorpg genre and the bump in subs seen with major expansions.

 

EQ (which you touched upon)and the rise of the more graphically orientated mmorpgs (followed by more single player/casual centric mmos) is what "did for" UO in terms of it being a major market share holder. The ismoetric world was simply behind the times and the majority of gamers new to the genre wanted 3D.

 

UO is for me certainly the greatest mmo there has been, but it is not what it once was and that boils down to what occurred with "the split". If you removed the pking/ffa from EVE it would still probably go on, but it would be a mockery of the game it once was and that is exactly what happened to UO.

 

That is not to say there wasn't issues with pking of course.

No, I can't support that statement. My sources are lost on the internet or gone.

What I can tell you is this. I've seen several statements to this effect from the original big dogs at UO, Koster for sure, and I think Garriott and Star Long, but maybe others instead.

Raph Koster posted as Holocron on the SWG boards before release that the numbers of players that left UO directly because of PKing was in the 6 figures. So anywhere from 100,000 to something short of a million that left UO directly because of rampant PKing. I think it's safe to say that it was on the short end of that range, but that's quite a number.

One of these guys said in an interview once (I think it was Long, but it might have been a later big wig) that UO had more than a million gamers try it, but most leaving. But I don't know the time frame there, it could have been over 5 years, I just don't know. But also, all these games have a lot of players try them out and leave. One of WoW's developers that talked about the percentages of keepers more than a few months, and how low it was for all of them, even WoW. It was something in the 20%-25% range for WoW. The hidden numbers out there are much larger than we gamers know because they aren't talked about much.

But I don't have links, and I've tried before to find these things without luck, so I'm not going to even try now.

Let me add that EQ came out only 1 year after UO. Their numbers were quite a bit larger. Do you think that there was that much of a new community of gamers that knew nothing about UO? In one year? And if said community did grow that much, was it because they were aware of UO, the first truly massive MMORPG and heavily in the gaming news, or not?

One of my biggest regrets in my time playing MMORPGs is the fact that I've been unable to get PvPers as whole to realize their affect on their games. And I've tried for quite a few years. I mean, all you have to do is look at what happened to any game or server that allowed wide open PvP. UO (until Trammel was added), UO's PvP Felucca, AC's Darktide server, Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, all of them. They may have started well, but al started sufefring the hemorrhage of attrition as players found out that they aren't going to be King of the Hill, and there's no room for any other play in such an environment.

You know, you just can't have meaningfull PvP as part of a game world unless PvPers give something. But PvPers won't give. Neither will non-PvPers. I can offer you a system that makes PvP meaningfull in one world, and separates the PvPers from non-PvPers, through the use of a "military" function in guilds and adding a separate supply chain/resources/territory (a combined system) to fight for, but I've been shot down before so I won't bother now.


To suggest that all the subs, or even the majority of them (in SWG) came purely from people who had rejected UO due to pking is a leap into the realms of fantasy. Frankly if Koster said that it numbered 6 figures who left UO purely due to pking then all the data that is on the net with regards to subs must be totally and utterly false to a factor of about 10. Which is unlikely.

 

All the data that you can still access on the net, actually points to the sub numbers steadily increasing over time up until the point the pleothora of more graphically advanced and all round less complex mmos came to dominate the market.

 

EQ was indeed just after UO, but it heralded a new dawn which clearly appealed to a larger userbase. Not everyone rushed to it from UO because not everyone was playing UO in the first place. That is not surprising given how new the genre was to the market place still and how few (when compared to now) people actually played mmorpgs.

 

i'm not debating the pros and cons of ffa here, I just think you are being somewhat hyperbolic with regards to your thoughts on the negative impact UO's ffa stage had upon the sandbox market place.

Well, let me try to explain.

If a game has 100K subs, and over the next few months gains another 300K subs, but loses 250K of those new subs, plus loses another 50K of the original subs, you'd see a report that the game stayed at 100K subs. Yet, 400K people tried the game out.

And the same sort of thing with the entire industry itself in those days. A lot of people tried out UO and left the MMORPG scene entirely, while new people came in at the same time. Subs did increase overall quite considerably, especially with WoW, but also overall. Some old UO players ended up in EQ, others in AC, others in DAoC, mixed in with the new players who never played UO, and some just left the scene and went back to SPgames or FPSers, or whatever. The overall retention numbers increased, we don't know how much the overall numbers of people who didn't stick increased but I'm absolutely sure they did. The point is, that UO had about as many players try it as those other games before WoW did, game per game. But the other games had more retention than UO did exactly because of the PKing. And of you don't want to believe Koster, that's your right. But you don't know how many left a game before they could be counted as subs on a quarterly basis. Koster did.

  User Deleted
1/11/12 3:13:36 AM#77
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Amaranthar

 

 

Well, let me try to explain.

If a game has 100K subs, and over the next few months gains another 300K subs, but loses 250K of those new subs, plus loses another 50K of the original subs, you'd see a report that the game stayed at 100K subs. Yet, 400K people tried the game out.

And the same sort of thing with the entire industry itself in those days. A lot of people tried out UO and left the MMORPG scene entirely, while new people came in at the same time. Subs did increase overall quite considerably, especially with WoW, but also overall. Some old UO players ended up in EQ, others in AC, others in DAoC, mixed in with the new players who never played UO, and some just left the scene and went back to SPgames or FPSers, or whatever. The overall retention numbers increased, we don't know how much the overall numbers of people who didn't stick increased but I'm absolutely sure they did. The point is, that UO had about as many players try it as those other games before WoW did, game per game. But the other games had more retention than UO did exactly because of the PKing. And of you don't want to believe Koster, that's your right. But you don't know how many left a game before they could be counted as subs on a quarterly basis. Koster did.

I'll start by stating catagorically that whilst I have looked at data on the net, it is clear that obviously Koster knows far more about the situation that occurred than I do in terms of numbers. So don't take any counter points I make as me trying to make out otherwise!

 

That being said, whilst Koster may have been privy to how many people have ever tried the game and then quit, I can safely say that he has no idea how many of them would fall into the camp of "I quit because I got pk'd", he certainly has no clear idea as to how many of them who thought "I quit because I got pk'd and now I am put off sandboxes forever". The vast, vast amount of people don't bother to explain to a developer why they are quitting their game.

 

Many of those players may have just been trying it out and didn't like it for any number of reasons, many will have seen the newer games and left, a large amount may no longer have the funding or have other obligations. Sorry but I am highly skeptical of the fact that a massive swathe of people not only gave up the game due to pk'ing, but also didn't bother to go back after Tram and gave up on sandboxes in general.

 

What is clear though is that the sub numbers where gradually climbing and that moreover, any massive leap in the sub data did not coincide with the introduction of Tram (which saw a moderate increase that pretty much any major expansion would add), it simply carried on groing as one would expect with a product which was seeing a larger and larger potential customerbase accessing the market via the internet.

 

Koster went on to make a 3D sandbox with possibly one of the largest IP's seen in a game or within the entertainment industry in general, Star Wars. More and more people had access to the internet and to the mmorpg gaming sphere and yet for all of those advantagesand the game being non ffa, what happened to that? By 2004 it had 250k subs and by 2006 110-175k subs. After that they changed the core model. It may have shifted 1mm boxes over several years but that is not subs and those figures are hardly pointing to ffa being a major issue for UO.

 

There is no doubt (especially these days) that more people prefer not to have ffa/looting than people who do want that kind of thing. But I really don't see your initial premise being correct. The majority don't play sandbox games because they don't give a toss about world simulation, they just want to log into a game and "have a blast" or quick adventure in a graphically rich world. Furthermore the road to the loot grind started with Tram and the casualisation it brought into the game. 

 

Personally I just wish they would make an updated (pre Tram) UO. Doubt it will happen mind you /sigh.

 

 

  Hexipox

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/11
Posts: 194

1/11/12 6:46:14 AM#78
There is a reason that my sign here is UO. Its simply the best MMO ever made IMO. I started playing it in 1997 {mod edit}
  Hrica

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/31/05
Posts: 1135

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow a mystery, and today is a gift"

1/11/12 11:12:12 AM#79
Originally posted by Vhaln

Have they considered making it into an iPad app, yet?

 

^ this and I would go buy a iPhone right now

  SylenThunder

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/09
Posts: 5

1/19/12 7:22:02 AM#80

Just a curiosity, why is it that everyone thinks that UO was the first, when in fact, Meridian59 came out before it did, and had much better PvP mechanics?

 

Although, I guess you could call UO the granddaddy, if you also assume that M59 was the grandmother that gave birth to it all. In fact, the only reason that M59 didn't become bigger than UO was because of some bad decisions by 3DO.

SylenThunder Xfire Miniprofile
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