I'm sick to death of leveling.

Has anyone noticed that now ALL games have leveling? Racing games? Beat em ups? Gardening simulators?

In the "good old days" we had loads of different mechanics governing game progression but now almost all games, not just mmorpgs, are turning into extremely limited, least-common-denominator skinnerian grinds with different skins. (forgive my weak pun.)

It is an incredibly limiting design choice and  it's becoming nauseatingly boring.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I'm sick to death of leveling.

Has anyone noticed that now ALL games have leveling? Racing games? Beat em ups? Gardening simulators?

In the "good old days" we had loads of different mechanics governing game progression but now almost all games, not just mmorpgs, are turning into extremely limited, least-common-denominator skinnerian grinds with different skins. (forgive my weak pun.)

It is an incredibly limiting design choice and  it's becoming nauseatingly boring.

Back when UO came out, you didn't have levels, you had skills. As you used your skills (IE like Elder Scrolls) your skill got better and that is how your characrter improved.

The question is, is that any different than a grind fest? Does that change the basic premise that all MMO games aren't really skill based at their core but time based. Think about Everquest and rare spawned mobs that spawned every 7-10 days back in the day, think Vanilla WoW where raids could last upwards of 5-6 hours, those are just 2 off the top of my head. And after you did these what actually changed in the world? It was like nothing happened.

Some people may love that, but does that improve enjoyment or is that, in fact, nothing more than another time sink disguised as some amazing content to make the user think they are getting value?

If a developer is ever serious about reducing boredome in an MMO, the first thing you would need to do is vary the type of quests you do. I am not niave enough to think that we will ever get an open world MMO again worth it's salt so that is out of the question, so I am basing this on the current themepark MMO's we have. SWTOR came closest to doing this out of the recent batch of MMO's as it wasn't in your face about kill 10 of x or 15 of x, it was more there just not in your face.

The other thing that is missing is conflict. Most of these games you have a good side and a bad side and aside from battlegrounds you almost never interact with one another in any signifigant way. Doesn't necessarily need to be PvP based, but it could be quest based, something in which each side thinks they are doing something dynamic to change the world around them in a competitive way. Sure throw some PvP in there but it doesn't need to be 50/50 or even 30/70 PvP, but make it something that is non-static. Make it something where those who wouldn't be caught dead in a PvP zone or fighting another player will be able to feel the conflict and non static world in PvE and feel like their actions matter.

Alot of this go along way to stomping out the tedium and boredome in my opinion.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I'm sick to death of leveling.

Has anyone noticed that now ALL games have leveling? Racing games? Beat em ups? Gardening simulators?

In the "good old days" we had loads of different mechanics governing game progression but now almost all games, not just mmorpgs, are turning into extremely limited, least-common-denominator skinnerian grinds with different skins. (forgive my weak pun.)

It is an incredibly limiting design choice and  it's becoming nauseatingly boring.

 

You mind explaining what they were?

You mean "the mechanics of the good old days"?

Jeez....

Don't tell me you never saw a computer game which does not employ xps levels and the whole skinnerian grind?

What about the P-n-P role playing games? There are hudreds of them out there which do not use xp and levels.

What about the text and graphical adventure games? Pure role playing WITHOUT levels, stats and gear.

In the old days you had fps's where it was all about fun and skill. Now it's collecting xp to unlock cooler guns. You have a tank game where it's all about collecting xp and unlocking tanks. And a gardening simulator which is about collecting xp and unlocking seeds........ And racing games where you collect xp to unlock cars and a frigging air guitar simulator where you collect xp to unlock songs. WTF?!

What about the last 4000+ years of board game evolution? I don't recall xp and levels giving advantage to chess and bridge players so they can unlock new pieces and cards lol. What about more modern games (although there is a nasty trend nowadays to include the skinner crud there as well, sadly) I'm really "not sure" that Setlers of Cataan would be a better game if you collected XP to unlock stuff. Jeez....

You sure Rollercoaster Tycoon would have been a better game with xp and level unlocks? Civilization? Jeez pick any golden oldie and try to screw on xp+unlocks progression on it and you'll get the same old bland crap.

Nowadays you even have sandbox games with "leveling up" your pumpkins and seeds ffs. How stupidly revoltingly unimaginative and ludicrous  is that?! Killing iconic SW characters FOR THEIR PANTS! And the SW fans praising that game? For being true to Star Wars?

And on and on and on...

I'd say this plague begun with the introduction of formalized game-design education. It's just a feeling I have. A "scientific" (read psychologically manipulative) approach to game design. Makes me want to puke.

I'm beta testing Wakfu now and it's an utterly cool and engrossing little sandbox game with everything just like I'd love it to be but... yes  you guess, you collect xp to unlock levels and seeds. You have a level 10 loaf of bread and a level 50 loaf of bread. And yes, the level 10 loaf of bread becomes obsolete. This xp/level/unlock thing is turning everything into a railroaded ratrace, no matter how brilliant the rest of the game is. Yes, you guessed, I'm not subscribing to it - and I would really love to. But I'm really unwilling to spend any more of my time and money on being a rat in box.

The industry really needs to move away from that black hole otherwise it'll implode.

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Originally posted by Goknub
Moving to Bad Company 2 from WoW has been a breath of fresh air for me, leveling rewards you with new gear/weapons but your health doesn't change. A Level 1 can down the best Max-level/geared player if they can get them in their sights.
This not only means every engagement is a challenge, but also that if you don't want to race through the levels you DON'T have to just to remain competitive.

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Originally posted by kellian1

Back when UO came out, you didn't have levels, you had skills. As you used your skills (IE like Elder Scrolls) your skill got better and that is how your characrter improved.

Grind is excessive repetition.  Every account I've heard of UO's skill system is it was incredibly fast to max things out.  So it sounded like you weren't actually required to excessively repeat any activity (at least for raising skills; maybe other parts of the game were excessively repetitive?)

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by kellian1

Back when UO came out, you didn't have levels, you had skills. As you used your skills (IE like Elder Scrolls) your skill got better and that is how your characrter improved.

Grind is excessive repetition.  Every account I've heard of UO's skill system is it was incredibly fast to max things out.  So it sounded like you weren't actually required to excessively repeat any activity (at least for raising skills; maybe other parts of the game were excessively repetitive?)

Actually they had training dummies where it would take hours to raise your sword skill (or other assorted skills). Those enterprising among us came up with macro's do it for us (before they got wise to that), but yeah excessive repetition would be a GREAT word for what it was.

That's not to say it couldn't be done properly in the future using skills and not levels. UO though certainly had a grind element to it when it first came out. Maybe since 97-98 it has changed, I can only go by what I experienced in 97-98.

I don't think that anything is wrong with leveling necessarily.  I think there's certainly a point where it gets in the way but I think leveling is sort of a general and artificial means of pacing a player through a game.  

Dark Souls didn't really need a leveling system, but it doesn't exactly get in the way of gameplay.  

Unlocking cars in a racing game... unless the process takes entirely too long, I don't see an issue with this either, you could replace leveling with a currency system and still achieve essentially the same thing... po-ta-toes pah-tah-toes.  

In League of Legends, leveling serves as a way to force you into playing the game enough so that at level 30 you can start doing ranked matches... this could've been replaced with a flat "earn 100 Classic wins".  

For gardening games, plants reaching levels... not necessary but they still need time to grow and be nurtured so what's the difference between structuring it around a level system instead of just a growth meter?  

To call leveling like this BS is just silly... I mean I get that there's sometimes more creative ways of achieving the same thing, but grinding is grinding any way you look at it.  Now complaining about leveling as a significant gameplay mechanic, like Ultima Online or Elder Scrolls versus WoW and TOR, that's different.  For PvP-centric games, leveling is not the way to go, unless it's done like League of Legends where it really doesn't matter.  WoW can kind-of get away with it because many people say the game begins once you reach the level cap, and if you're looking to do arenas and battlegrounds, it works... but it makes world PvP a pain when it's impossible to win against some people while leveling.    

I personally enjoy the prospects of skill-based gameplay much more however.  I don't enjoy being beaten by a 12 year old that spends 16 hours a day on something to grind out levels and gear and ultimately facerolls people regardless of skill, having spreadsheets and number-crunching dictate the outcome of a battle rather than skill.  I'd love to see something MMORPG-like, even entirely instance-based, that had combat with the depth of a fighting game.  Soul Calibur with a bit of tweaking can work beautifully, IV introduced character creation where you can fit armor and stuff on characters so they even have the code for equipping different gear.

Making broader content and more paths to progress I´d guess.

Making the game fun all the time is the key..

Me I find themepark games like wow and swtor realyl boring... but i really enjoy games like Darkfall even though most people will call it a grind.

I enjoyed lvling my character and taking time getting him right.. it kept me hooked to the game for well over a year, im usualyl bored of MMORPGs after 6 months or sometimes less depending how simple they are to lvl up..

At the end of the day if your having fun your having fun.

Originally posted by steuss

The answer is NEITHER. Devs need to put interesting things to do that aren't leveling.

 

Meaningful crafting? EASY crafting. I forever love EQ's baking where common mob drops could be used to make steaks with stat boosting effects.

 

Meaningful buffs that were expensive to use, once given to lower levels was a SUPER boost.  Encouraged higher levels to help out lower levels.

 

Changable game world based on player interaction; cut a tree down the tree is gone. build a house... etc.

I agree with everything but the part about the changable game world. Problem is there will always be players that will use such a feature to the detriment of others. Building houses with the purpose of obstructing others; cutting down every tree in the game just because they can; etc. Too much realism a good game does not make.

Leveling absolutely needs to take longer, though. Devs just need to do something fresh with it to keep it from becoming a grind. More new areas, monsters that arent just the same AI in a different model, new skills/abilities to look forward to that aren't just the same skills you have with bigger numbers on them, these are things that keep leveling fresh.

Alternative things to do is a plus as well. Crafting is so often either just an afterthough, or involves a boring tedious mini-game that gets old quickly. Some games, like Rift, make crafting almost completely useless by only allowing you to make subpar items for levels smaller than you have to be to obtain the materials to make them.

I use Final Fantasy XI as an example a lot, but the game had plenty to keep you busy. Crafting, item farming, raising/racing chocobo, gardening, decorating your house, fishing, Ballista, Aht Urghan Whitegate Beseiged attacks, Goblin dungeons, and a multitude of different classes to play and try. There was plenty besides just good old monster smashing. Probably why it was the only MMO I've ever spent 2 years straight subscribed to.

Speaking of which, class selection is pretty sorry in most modern-day MMOs. I dont know why developers today seem to think its such a sin to have multiple classes that can do the same job in different ways. EQ had a ton of classes to try out, which made it easy to find one or more you liked. It actually makes repeating that leveling content more interesting also.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

I'm sick to death of leveling.

Has anyone noticed that now ALL games have leveling? Racing games? Beat em ups? Gardening simulators?

In the "good old days" we had loads of different mechanics governing game progression but now almost all games, not just mmorpgs, are turning into extremely limited, least-common-denominator skinnerian grinds with different skins. (forgive my weak pun.)

It is an incredibly limiting design choice and  it's becoming nauseatingly boring.

Leveling is limiting? As opposed to what...remaining the same throughout the game? What do you consider the "good old days"? The NES? Even in those days most any game that took more than 20 minutes to play through had some sort of leveling, be it the number of heart containers you pick up as you complete "levels", or a traditional number-based leveling system.

So please elaborate because you're not making any sense here.

*double post*

Horizontal rather than vertical expansions

e.g. COX, DAOC, GW