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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Guess now we know EAlouse wasn't just raving mad

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176 posts found
  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5554

12/26/11 3:38:59 PM#81

the game has barely been released for a week, its far too soon to be calling down the doom and gloom on the game yet, whether or not EALouse was giving the 100 percent lowdown on the game, will probably be a matter of some debate for quite some time.. but whatever his arguments were, that doesnt mean his conclusions were equally valid...  and only time will confirm or reject his conclusions.. so if in 3 months time the game has tanked subs like STO on a bad day.. then EALouse will be vindicated.. if not.. then.. his conclusions were wrong..

 

if i was a betting man though, i'd put a few quid on EALouse being right

  onthestick

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 647

12/26/11 3:39:08 PM#82
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by fony

he probably assumed that because you use GW2 to invalidate anyone who doesn't speak of TOR favorably, or brand them as a troll.

Yea pretty much this, it just brought me to curiosity.

 

What's funny is though only one guy said "If you're not playing GW2 your living a crappy existance." or something a long those lines but we all know that's an opinion.

 

 

Please feel free to check my posting history. I seldom psot on GW2 forums because i would like to play the game before making an opinion. But that doesn't stop me form pointing out double standards and hypocricy on regular basis. And that'crappy existence' post is just one example and i got plenty more but what iw as trying to say was that both GW2 and SWTOR has its share of its fans who would disrupt any discussion at any given chance.

How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?

ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...

Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

12/26/11 3:41:19 PM#83
Originally posted by gestalt11

Seems like BS to me.

 

Why?  There have been a bajillion highly profitable FPS that have essentially not changed much in the way of FPS mechanics.

 

There is no reason to think SWTOR won't be highlty profitable.  In fact EA makes tons of money reliably each year doing just this.

 

Now, personally,  Ithink a game like GW2 which seems to be doing a number of interesting things is going to be a far superior game (yes I said far) but that by no means make SWTOR a horrible failure.  I am not arrogant enough to believe there is causation between these two things.

 

Are there problems with SWTOR sure, of course.  Are people gonna get sick of it sure.  But it also has a number of good things going for it.  If you wait for perfection you'll be waiting forever.  Everyone knows this and buys accordingly.

Bold statements but I agree as well.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

12/26/11 3:43:42 PM#84
Originally posted by Mephster

EAlouse was spot on and nobody wanted to believe. Now the mmo genre gets what it deserves from its ignorance.

This is just silly. 

 

"Gets what it deserves"?  Seriously.  This is not a sword in the gut.  Its product you can choose to buy or not.  They offer something you choose.

 

Not you say "frog" and they jump.

 

There is now one more choice in the genre.  It is not harmed.  Perhaps its a crappy choice.  Perhaps not.  But this melodrama is pathetic.  Its not even hyperbole.  Just drenched with sappy melodrama, whoa is me the world is ending Bioware doesn't make things the way I think they should BS.

 

Get over yourselves people.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

12/26/11 3:45:43 PM#85
Originally posted by onthestick
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by fony

he probably assumed that because you use GW2 to invalidate anyone who doesn't speak of TOR favorably, or brand them as a troll.

Yea pretty much this, it just brought me to curiosity.

 

What's funny is though only one guy said "If you're not playing GW2 your living a crappy existance." or something a long those lines but we all know that's an opinion.

 

 

Please feel free to check my posting history. I seldom psot on GW2 forums because i would like to play the game before making an opinion. But that doesn't stop me form pointing out double standards and hypocricy on regular basis. And that'crappy existence' post is just one example and i got plenty more but what iw as trying to say was that both GW2 and SWTOR has its share of its fans who would disrupt any discussion at any given chance.

Oh well in that case I can agree with you, on this.

 

I guess I mess up by not checking history of others, part being lazy ha ha. 

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Mondo80

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/11/04
Posts: 177

12/26/11 3:46:46 PM#86

They probably made most of the money spent on development back from just the sale of the game itself, I've seen this a lot from other games.  SWTOR will suffer the same fate as WAR, the Sims Online and Earth and Beyond.  One game on life support which NEEDS to go F2P to survive and two games that have been shut down.

  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 2099

Posts deleted: 12589457

12/26/11 3:58:53 PM#87
Originally posted by Mephster

EAlouse was spot on and nobody wanted to believe. Now the mmo genre gets what it deserves from its ignorance.

Could also say greed.

But i agree nonetheless.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

12/26/11 4:03:14 PM#88
Originally posted by Phry

the game has barely been released for a week, its far too soon to be calling down the doom and gloom on the game yet, whether or not EALouse was giving the 100 percent lowdown on the game, will probably be a matter of some debate for quite some time.. but whatever his arguments were, that doesnt mean his conclusions were equally valid...  and only time will confirm or reject his conclusions.. so if in 3 months time the game has tanked subs like STO on a bad day.. then EALouse will be vindicated.. if not.. then.. his conclusions were wrong..

 

if i was a betting man though, i'd put a few quid on EALouse being right

I know that, personally, I could not play this game for more than 3 months.  I simply can't get excited about RPG games that do not let me make things my way.  This is why I found DIKU MUDs much more boring than skill based LP MUDs which genreally had far more custom "class".  This is nothing new for me.  It been the way I play all RPGs since the 1980's.  Part of the thrill for me is creating something interesting and novel.  Not playing some pre-made class that some developer came up with and that will always play out the same for most everyone. 

I want drive a car not drive a train.  DIKU MUDs and their MMO successor's (EQ->WoW->SWTOR) give you a train and then say "Hey drive like you want its completely free-form (by the way you can only change tracks in chicago and union station).  I mean you can speed up or slow down whenever you want and make any choice you want.  Sure there are only two choices but you can make em however you want.  Completely free".

 

But so what?  Its frigging Star Wars.  You get enough people sticking around and then a ton of people cycling through every 3 months.

 

I will say it over and over.  This idea that the DIKU formula will just go the way of the dodo is completely and utterly WRONG.  The DIKU formula was ALWAYS the most popular in MUDs.  This lasted for 10 years+ and persisted through a player base that was far more informed than your average MMO player.

There will never be some mass awakening that games like EQ or WoW were somehow bad.  Some people, many people, simply like that format (even though they are wrong and it sucks, bah humbug).

 

I am glad there are a number of people who share my point of view and think these DIKU games are essentially trite and boring.  But:

    a) I am not surprised the other side of the genre was still pretty populated in MUDs. Maybe 60/40

    b) Don't bother ridiculing DIKU-style games.  Seriously you have to get over it and realize to each their own.  You will never erradicate the DIKU formula.  In fact you will probably never even make it that its not the most popular.

 

I re-iterate.  This is not about ignorance or some mass amount of people suddenly "seeing the light" and doing things your (well our really) way.  This is not about right or wrong.  Or even so much about ogjective reality.

 

Its about preference.  Even if you and I are correct that a DIKU style game is trite, that may not mean jack to many people because they simply don't care that much as long as they can progress through gear and have story fluff.

 

And I am here to tell you now from 20 years, yes 2 frigging decades, a large number of people fit that bill.  Not only do they fit that bill but I can tell everyone here today they fit that bill with FULL self-knowledge about what it implies.  There are a number of smart people who are fully cognizant of the trite and shallow nature of the gear grind and simply accept that this is what they like.  I know because I have asked.  I asked them in MUDs and I have asked them in MMOs.  I simply don't agree with them.

 

This is not about people being stupid.  When people disagree it is not always the case that one of them is stupid.  I know that goes against modern sensibilities where apparently everyone who isn't in whatever camp a person happens to be in is automatically stupid or ignorantn (and of course should be re-educated).  But its the truth.

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

12/26/11 4:06:04 PM#89

WTF is DIKU?

  fony

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 799

 
OP  12/26/11 4:09:54 PM#90
Originally posted by AdamTM

WTF is DIKU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DikuMUD

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

12/26/11 4:12:09 PM#91
Originally posted by AdamTM

WTF is DIKU?

DIKU is the MUD code-base that Everquest was based on. 

 

It had static classes usually Cleric, Warrior, Theif, and Mage and possibly some others depending on devs (for example Crusader was a fighter mage).

You leveled from 1 to usually about 50.  You got abilitieis are specific levels.  All theives for example always got backstab at level 12 or so. 

You then grinded levels and obtained gear.  Gear worked basically the same as WoW.  You were constantly upgrading gear and it was one of the main determiners of whether or not you were powerful.

 

If this sounds familar its because it is.

 

Edit:  Please note I don't mean to imply that Verant took code from DIKU.  Merely that the RPG mechanics of how classes work and are generated.  And probably most importantly how gear works.  Is an almost direct copy.

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

12/26/11 4:41:03 PM#92
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by AdamTM

WTF is DIKU?

DIKU is the MUD code-base that Everquest was based on. 

 

It had static classes usually Cleric, Warrior, Theif, and Mage and possibly some others depending on devs (for example Crusader was a fighter mage).

You leveled from 1 to usually about 50.  You got abilitieis are specific levels.  All theives for example always got backstab at level 12 or so. 

You then grinded levels and obtained gear.  Gear worked basically the same as WoW.  You were constantly upgrading gear and it was one of the main determiners of whether or not you were powerful.

 

If this sounds familar its because it is.

 

Edit:  Please note I don't mean to imply that Verant took code from DIKU.  Merely that the RPG mechanics of how classes work and are generated.  And probably most importantly how gear works.  Is an almost direct copy.

 

To give people a point of reference as to why this is not "duh all RPGs work this way".  The LP MUD I played had the following differences:

     -You did not have any class at character creation.  You had to find your class.

    - You had both levels and skills that increase through use.

                -DIKU MUDs almost never had any skills.

    -  The class you found could work completely different from another class

                   - DIKU classes all worked exactly the same.  You got abilities at levels. period.

                   - in my MUD one class gave spells at levels another class gated all class abilities via skill (sometimes multiple skills)

     - Gear was not a constant upgrade ladder.  Gear was crafted or bought and certain key pieces of gear were in particular places.

     - You had Health per body part.  Your hand could get amputated causing you to unwield a weapon.  You could aim at particular body parts.  You had to have your chest or head hit to die.  If you chest went to -1 hp you started bleeding and losing hp from your chest and then died when its reached about -20.  Head going to 0 was an instant kill.  Every hit always hit a certain area usually randomly, except spells which usually auto-target the chest.  Being highly skilled in a weapon let you aim at a body part more reliably.

                 -  DIKU MUDs had a single simple HP pool.  Hmmm just like EQ and WoW etc ..... but not like say EvE.

    - In addition to your class (which was called a guild) you had things called associations you could join that were like very minor classes.  They gave one or two small benefits.  Some were mutually exclusive and usually some kind of faction/alignment based.  Most had some kind of downside too.  No limit on how many you could join.  But it was impossible to join em all due to animosities.  Could not join the Order assoication if you were in a Chaotic assoc.

    -  Your health and mana did not constantly go.  You had stats.  Your health and mana was based on that.  If you had alot of constitution at level 10 you could have more health than a level 30 person with low con.

    -  Infinite levels since not everthing scaled with level.  In the end stats and skills were more important than levels at about level 30 and a level just gave a few extra stat poitns to spend (and 2 points of stats).

 

 

Think about it for a second why do almost all these games use a simple Health pool?  When D&D came out this was because we didn't have computers and we need a simple system that we could use quickly to move along the campaign.

I started playing my old MUD in 1994.  Over 16 years ago we had a computer game that used a much more rich/complex system for health actually simulating body parts.  And it worked.  The computer was the thing that kept track of all much larger number of things to deal with.  But from a player perspective it worked fine and was interesting.  Let me tell you I was constantly on the look out for a lucky hit that took a hand off.  And when you had a foot taken off it was interesting because you moved dog ass slow but still could fight.

Now this model was not made up in MUDs.  In fact it existed in the old Warhammer fantasy RPG game.  In fact many of the ideas of that MUD existed in that RPG system (a looser idea of classes and skills etc).

 

But by and large we still have games that use the old D&D model, which was transferred into the DIKU code base and then transferred into the MMO space by everquest.  All with little regard to what needs to abstracted out and what no longer needs to be abstracted out now that we have computers instead of Dungeon Masters to manage this stuff.

 

When you compare games like Ultima Online or EvE it starts to become more obvious just how much the D&D to DIKU to EQ side of the genre is simply incredibly hide-bound.  It is very very much an "of it ain't broke don't fix it" sort of thing.

 

These games.  They use a single health pool, simply because that is the way its always been.  At least from their point of view.  They can't even truly say, oh switching to some other system would be a big unknown.  Because frankly a number of novel systems were implemented and tested as computerized system for years in MUDs.

 

I would take an MMO that used a health system similar to my old MUD in a heart beat.  But they just use a single boring health pool.  My guess is because that is what EQ and UO both did.  The only time you see something different is in a game like EvE where they had to simulate a space ship with shield and armor and hard points for guns.  They worked off a different paradigm and came up with something else.

Strangly the example, EvE, where they worked from scratch is the one closest to the fantasy MUD I used to play as far as a health system is concerned.

 

 

 

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

12/26/11 4:58:06 PM#93

THX for that DIKU thing.

I've read all those walls of text but I'm still not sure what you are on about.

  User Deleted
12/26/11 5:36:50 PM#94
Originally posted by AdamTM

THX for that DIKU thing.

I've read all those walls of text but I'm still not sure what you are on about.

I was kind of thinking the same thing O_O, and I thought I might crazy to post what you just posted.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/26/11 5:44:34 PM#95
Originally posted by gestalt11

Strangly the example, EvE, where they worked from scratch is the one closest to the fantasy MUD I used to play as far as a health system is concerned.

The original devs were big fans of UO and early MUDs, so that hevily influenced the direction they went with EVE Online. Those games were more about contributing to an evolving game world than leveling through a static one.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Alobin

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/11
Posts: 1

12/26/11 6:02:36 PM#96
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Look, its obvious that game had huge investment.

Was it 100 million as EA claims or 300 million as EA Lause claims. We will never know. 

Given, but I'd still take EA's word over a disgruntled employee, they have to be somewhat honest with investors.

But since a company will never reveal true numbers. I will have to assume its somwhere in the middle.

See above.

Which still makes it the most expensive MMO by far.

Which is not a bad thing, lol.  

 

Also, if you are watching from the side. Its obvious that the game is performing under expectations. Expectations that were high that is - being both huge investment , Bioware and Star Wars franchise game.

Lol, how can you honestly say that with a straight face. Quickest mmo to 1 million subscribers, BEFORE the christmas crowd comes, which should be HUGE given it released 5 days before christmas. No other western MMO besides WoW has reached 1 million subscribers. And Old Republic did in the first day at the end of it's grace period. Not to mention, record setting pre orders.

Just million accounts at first month is same as Aoc, War and Rift had. Yet those games soon became wastelands.

A million accounts /= 1 million subscribers.

If you base retention on every MMO that launched since 2004 , it only goes down...

True, but the higher your box sales, the less retention you need to be successful, not that swtor is in danger of massive drop offs to the extent that Warhammer Online and Age of Conan suffered from. Given that Old Republic's polish far exceeds either of those two.

Will SWTOR fare better ?

Probably.

Judging from ammount of complaints, it seems to be going the same way as previous MMOs.

You probably didn't experiance the AoC release first hand, lol.

 

But maybe miracle will happen ?

WOW effect maybe ?

Doesn't need a miracle, it will do fine on it's own merits.

 

But when WOW launched in 2004 it was really amazing game, way ahead of its time.

SWTOR ? I am not that sure...

Doesn't need to be, as far as I am concerned, WoW was not revolutionary as you claim either.

 

 

Just thought I'd correct a fellow mmorpg goer.  

  Sector13

Elite Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 681

12/26/11 6:20:57 PM#97

Aion is still doing better overall. =p

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

12/26/11 6:57:22 PM#98

EALouse made a fatal mistake actually. The person made factually wrong statements, esp that '300M' lie.

As such, everything that this person is claiming is now considered 'wrong'.

Yes, I too can make 20 claims about GW2/TSW/PS2 etc that I don't really know much inside information about. I'm sure I can get 2 of them right just out of sheer chance, like EALouse.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Sector13

Elite Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 681

12/26/11 7:01:20 PM#99
Originally posted by jpnz

EALouse made a fatal mistake actually. The person made factually wrong statements, esp that '300M' lie.

As such, everything that this person is claiming is now considered 'wrong'.

Yes, I too can make 20 claims about GW2/TSW/PS2 etc that I don't really know much inside information about. I'm sure I can get 2 of them right just out of sheer chance, like EALouse.

Well, you see, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows who EALouse is, so I totally know EALouse wasn't lying. =3

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

12/26/11 7:04:27 PM#100
Originally posted by Sector13
Originally posted by jpnz

EALouse made a fatal mistake actually. The person made factually wrong statements, esp that '300M' lie.

As such, everything that this person is claiming is now considered 'wrong'.

Yes, I too can make 20 claims about GW2/TSW/PS2 etc that I don't really know much inside information about. I'm sure I can get 2 of them right just out of sheer chance, like EALouse.

Well, you see, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows who EALouse is, so I totally know EALouse wasn't lying. =3

Get it right you insentive clod! (Slashdot joke, ^_^)

It is 'my father's brother's cousin's former roommate!'

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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