Originally posted by pharazonic

 

Frankly, I just don't buy it. It would be baiting if he made personal attacks against people, or implied things about the game that were not true. It would be unconstructive if he posted lies to mislead potential consumers of the game. All he has done is stimulate discussion and provided the sources of the real people with concrete issues of the game. 

 

If he had never played the game and wrote fake reviews - now that would be unconstructive. 

 

I find these posts (like yours) - that prompt finger pointing and fighting - to be unconstructive.

That would be overt baiting, there are different levels of baiting and the only way to truly know or guess is to know the poster, many know the poster, and it's not unreasonable to assume based on previous statements what the intention is.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Hmmm...I have to side with the defenders on this one.  Simply because, there's no real proof that EA Louse was right...yet.

Yes, you can argue that the only good thing about the game is the story/VO, but that's really just a subjective opinion.

The real test is going to few in a few months when we see what subs look like.  If subs take a massive nose dive, then yeah, we can proclaim EA Louse a prophet.  Until then, his prophecy remains unfulfilled :).

I agree with Creslin. If 6 months down the line we're seeing server merges and low pop, then I'd say there was a certain amount of failure there, either in the game or in the release planning. Right now, though, 'clusterf**k', 'fail' and 'delusional fanboys' seem like the ravings of a madman... a bitter madman.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by pharazonic

 

Frankly, I just don't buy it. It would be baiting if he made personal attacks against people, or implied things about the game that were not true. It would be unconstructive if he posted lies to mislead potential consumers of the game. All he has done is stimulate discussion and provided the sources of the real people with concrete issues of the game. 

 

If he had never played the game and wrote fake reviews - now that would be unconstructive. 

 

I find these posts (like yours) - that prompt finger pointing and fighting - to be unconstructive.

That would be overt baiting, there are different levels of baiting and the only way to truly know or guess is to know the poster, many know the poster, and it's not unreasonable to assume based on previous statements what the intention is.

i'm not trying to argue with anybody here, nor incite a flame fest. let the past be the past. also many of my perceived "trolling" has been an over reaction by the fans. i have alot of hands on experience with this game. you cannot just throw me under the bus because you don't like what i have to say.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by pharazonic

 

Frankly, I just don't buy it. It would be baiting if he made personal attacks against people, or implied things about the game that were not true. It would be unconstructive if he posted lies to mislead potential consumers of the game. All he has done is stimulate discussion and provided the sources of the real people with concrete issues of the game. 

 

If he had never played the game and wrote fake reviews - now that would be unconstructive. 

 

I find these posts (like yours) - that prompt finger pointing and fighting - to be unconstructive.

That would be overt baiting, there are different levels of baiting and the only way to truly know or guess is to know the poster, many know the poster, and it's not unreasonable to assume based on previous statements what the intention is.

Why must there always be an "intention" or an "agenda"? 

If someone finds something disatisfactory, they are free to make a post about it. 

If the OP made 100 posts about how EA Louse was correct - that would be unconstructive, spamming and trolling. 

If he made 100 posts on how the combat sucks without being able to justify himself (IE he never played the game), that would be flatout trolling. 

Just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they have some malicious intention to cause you displeasure.

At least that's my view. I don't think I am that important that a person will take time out of their day to piss me off. 

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by pharazonic

 

Frankly, I just don't buy it. It would be baiting if he made personal attacks against people, or implied things about the game that were not true. It would be unconstructive if he posted lies to mislead potential consumers of the game. All he has done is stimulate discussion and provided the sources of the real people with concrete issues of the game. 

 

If he had never played the game and wrote fake reviews - now that would be unconstructive. 

 

I find these posts (like yours) - that prompt finger pointing and fighting - to be unconstructive.

That would be overt baiting, there are different levels of baiting and the only way to truly know or guess is to know the poster, many know the poster, and it's not unreasonable to assume based on previous statements what the intention is.

Newsflash from MikeB for you

"Just wanted to clarify that I never said we'd be banning negative posters on this subforum or any subforum here, at least not explicitly. We want you to be able to share your opinion (positive or negative), we just want it to be shared in a fairly constructive manner and with respect shown for your fellow forum goers.

At the same time, it is true that posting this negative commentary over and over day in and day out can and does become disruptive and we need to deal with that. This does not mean we instantly ban users, however. Each user gets the standard warning - > ban escalation that anyone else would, and we'll often contact these problematic users privately to discuss the particular situation at length and ask them to dial it back a bit so as to avoid become disruptive.

As I said previously, the best thing for you to do if you don't like a game is to air it all out in a single impression or review thread, create your own user feature, or even blog about it. It really isn't necessary to post about it constantly.

If you feel another user qualifies as this sort of "negative poster" please do not call them out on it publicly on the forums, drag their post history out to support your claim, or attack them. If you feel this is more than a one-off instance of trolling or flaming, go ahead and shoot me an e-mail (community@mmorpg.com) and I'll review the matter personally.

Now, these forums are for the discussion of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not the discussion of discussing the game or the discussion of other users, so I'm going go ahead and lock this thread.

Thanks for your feedback!"

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/336419/page/6#4645098

Stop discussing the poster, thanks!

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

It's pretty credible that he mentioned that sound and VO are the only changes to an otherwise same-game MMO. I didn't even mention anything, anywhere, regarding the rest of his open letter, just the information regarding the VO and sound (and that's because he's right). I would agree that, if this letter was written after the fact, that the sound and VO information did come directly from Bioware's news or information, in which case still doesn't solve the massive problem by making a game that replicates others, but with improved sound.

Again it is an opinion not a fact. Same game is such a vague term because i find plenty of things different in SWTOR. As long as other persons view points confirm your own..it is credible otherwise it is not. Credbility means facts..and his blog had none.

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

It's pretty credible that he mentioned that sound and VO are the only changes to an otherwise same-game MMO. I didn't even mention anything, anywhere, regarding the rest of his open letter, just the information regarding the VO and sound (and that's because he's right). I would agree that, if this letter was written after the fact, that the sound and VO information did come directly from Bioware's news or information, in which case still doesn't solve the massive problem by making a game that replicates others, but with improved sound.

Again it is an opinion not a fact. Same game is such a vague term because i find plenty of things different in SWTOR. As long as other persons view points confirm your own..it is credible otherwise it is not. Credbility means facts..and his blog had none.

and what are these different things that you have plenty of?

Just asking, because people say these things and never mention what it is really.

Originally posted by fony

 

 

i'm not trying to argue with anybody here, nor incite a flame fest. let the past be the past. also many of my perceived "trolling" has been an over reaction by the fans. i have alot of hands on experience with this game. you cannot just throw me under the bus because you don't like what i have to say.

 

I just want to repeat myself from earlier in the thread, and why I personally dislike threads like this. I have nothing against you nor your opinions, I just hate the round and round altogether.

"First to prove EAlouse correct we'd have to know for fact they spent 300 mil making TOR. WIthout such proof there's no argument to be proven.

Second all threads like this say, and what we learn from it is, posters will say and attempt to solidify any point, simply because a game isn't what they wanted it to be. Even if the source of that point, debunked his comments himself.

In short, you want to believe EA louse and throw his statements out there not because they've been proven, but because TOR isn't the game you want, and you know such a statement will result in a heated back and forth that goes no where. At the end of that discussion nothing will change; those who like TOR will still call BS, those who don't will do the opposite if in some way EAlouse's comments prove some point they want to make. Such as "TOR is nothing new, it's the same MMO we've always played with VO and cutscenes"."

Originally posted by pharazonic

Originally posted by Distopia
 

 

Why must there always be an "intention" or an "agenda"? 

If someone finds something disatisfactory, they are free to make a post about it. 

 

If the OP made 100 posts about how EA Louse was correct - that would be unconstructive, spamming and trolling. 

 

If he made 100 posts on how the combat sucks without being able to justify himself (IE he never played the game), that would be flatout trolling. 

 

Just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they have some malicious intention to cause you displeasure.

 

At least that's my view. I don't think I am that important that a person will take time out of their day to piss me off. 

I didn't say there has to be and agenda, all I'm saying is this thread looks like a call to arms for some forum PVP to me.

Just want to remind everyone to stay on topic and not argue about whether something is trolling, baiting, flaming, etc. If you feel someone is in violation of our RoC, report them and we'll deal with it if necessary. Please don't derail the thread to try and deal with it on the open forums.

Look, its obvious that game had huge investment.

Was it 100 million as EA claims or 300 million as EA Lause claims. We will never know.

But since a company will never reveal true numbers. I will have to assume its somwhere in the middle.

Which still makes it the most expensive MMO by far.

Also, if you are watching from the side. Its obvious that the game is performing under expectations. Expectations that were high that is - being both huge investment , Bioware and Star Wars franchise game.

Just million accounts at first month is same as Aoc, War and Rift had. Yet those games soon became wastelands.

If you base retention on every MMO that launched since 2004 , it only goes down...

Will SWTOR fare better ?

Judging from ammount of complaints, it seems to be going the same way as previous MMOs.

But maybe miracle will happen ?

WOW effect maybe ?

But when WOW launched in 2004 it was really amazing game, way ahead of its time.

SWTOR ? I am not that sure...

Originally posted by sammyeli

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

It's pretty credible that he mentioned that sound and VO are the only changes to an otherwise same-game MMO. I didn't even mention anything, anywhere, regarding the rest of his open letter, just the information regarding the VO and sound (and that's because he's right). I would agree that, if this letter was written after the fact, that the sound and VO information did come directly from Bioware's news or information, in which case still doesn't solve the massive problem by making a game that replicates others, but with improved sound.

Again it is an opinion not a fact. Same game is such a vague term because i find plenty of things different in SWTOR. As long as other persons view points confirm your own..it is credible otherwise it is not. Credbility means facts..and his blog had none.

and what are these different things that you have plenty of?

 

Just asking, because people say these things and never mention what it is really.

Never mentioned? i mentioned it like million times but i will do it again... different things for me or what i like to call non standard features... modding system, crew skills, companion system, change in appearance on basis of light/dark choices, V.O has already been mentioned. These are some things just from top of my head which make SWTOR quite a different game for me.

There is a lot of presumption in your post Distopia. i'm not calling it 100% right, i'm saying it looks like he was on to something. i am not out to prove the budget is 300mil, cuz i have never, ever said it was. i said that EA/Bioware's word is no better than his or mine or yours....and that's pretty much true. he wasn't very far off from the file size, nor the game being underwhelming outside of the audio and VO.

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by sammyeli

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

It's pretty credible that he mentioned that sound and VO are the only changes to an otherwise same-game MMO. I didn't even mention anything, anywhere, regarding the rest of his open letter, just the information regarding the VO and sound (and that's because he's right). I would agree that, if this letter was written after the fact, that the sound and VO information did come directly from Bioware's news or information, in which case still doesn't solve the massive problem by making a game that replicates others, but with improved sound.

Again it is an opinion not a fact. Same game is such a vague term because i find plenty of things different in SWTOR. As long as other persons view points confirm your own..it is credible otherwise it is not. Credbility means facts..and his blog had none.

and what are these different things that you have plenty of?

 

Just asking, because people say these things and never mention what it is really.

Never mentioned? i mentioned it like million times but i will do it again... different things for me or what i like to call non standard features... modding system, crew skills, companion system, change in appearance on basis of light/dark choices, V.O has already been mentioned. These are somethings just from top of my head which make SWTOR quite a dufferent game for me.

and you believe that those things are extremely different from all past MMOs and can only be cited in SWTOR?

Originally posted by fony

There is a lot of presumption in your post Distopia. i'm not calling it 100% right, i'm saying it looks like he was on to something. i am not out to prove the budget is 300mil, cuz i have never, ever said it was. i said that EA/Bioware's word is no better than his or mine or yours....and that's pretty much true. he wasn't very far off from the file size, nor the game being underwhelming outside of the audio and VO.

You didn't really say much in the body of your post, I was referring to your thread title. To me it read as we know he was telling the truth, with that it would ecompass the entirety of his statements. WHen you don't really explain your intention, nor point out what exactly you're saying, all we have to fill in the blanks is presumption. So if I'm wrong my apologies.

Originally posted by fony

There is a lot of presumption in your post Distopia. i'm not calling it 100% right, i'm saying it looks like he was on to something. i am not out to prove the budget is 300mil, cuz i have never, ever said it was. i said that EA/Bioware's word is no better than his or mine or yours....and that's pretty much true. he wasn't very far off from the file size, nor the game being underwhelming outside of the audio and VO.

What you fail to understand that he is saying SWTOR is or going to be underwhelming is no more special than some other random posters who said the same thing, just like many would say about TSW and GW2 or any other MMO that is going to be released in future.

But there are two sides to the coin and there are also those who would disagree with what EAlouse said and find SWTOR quite enjoyable. So he is right as long as your opinion matches his own and he is wrong as long as your own opinion differs from his. Only because he believed game won't be good enough doesn't give him any more credibility than me saying that The Secret WORLD is going to suck because Funcom is behind it..maybe i should write a blog too?

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Look, its obvious that game had huge investment.

Was it 100 million as EA claims or 300 million as EA Lause claims. We will never know.

But since a company will never reveal true numbers. I will have to assume its somwhere in the middle.

Which still makes it the most expensive MMO by far.

 

Also, if you are watching from the side. Its obvious that the game is performing under expectations. Expectations that were high that is - being both huge investment , Bioware and Star Wars franchise game.

Just million accounts at first month is same as Aoc, War and Rift had. Yet those games soon became wastelands.

If you base retention on every MMO that launched since 2004 , it only goes down...

Will SWTOR fare better ?

Judging from ammount of complaints, it seems to be going the same way as previous MMOs.

 

But maybe miracle will happen ?

WOW effect maybe ?

 

But when WOW launched in 2004 it was really amazing game, way ahead of its time.

SWTOR ? I am not that sure...

 

 

Good post, and I pretty much agree.  One thing that's interesting is that (AFAIK) NO major MMORPG released since like 2006 has actually grown.  They all come out the gate with a massive amount of subs and then quickly decline to reach a stable, yet fairly low, number.  So it's going to be very impressive if SWTOR can buck this trend.  But given the history of similar games, I don't know if it's likely.

And as for the money invested in SWTOR, another thing to consider is that (AFAIK) Bioware was already developing SWTOR when EA purchased them.  I actually heard that the purchase happened because they were running out of money to fund SWTOR.  So you also have to account for the money that Bioware invested into SWTOR before EA purchased them.

Originally posted by sammyeli

Never mentioned? i mentioned it like million times but i will do it again... different things for me or what i like to call non standard features... modding system, crew skills, companion system, change in appearance on basis of light/dark choices, V.O has already been mentioned. These are somethings just from top of my head which make SWTOR quite a dufferent game for me.

and you believe that those things are extremely different from all past MMOs and can only be cited in SWTOR?

I was 100% sure you were gonna say that. extremely different or not but is it different? yes. Other than FFXI i don't remember any other MMO making such an extensive use of companion system but SWTOR is even one step ahead because you can actually kill your companions on basis of choices you make. That wasn't possible in FFXI. Modding system to change appearance of your gear..only other MMO i know which is using same system is GW2..crew skills again.. no other MMO has it. So yep SWTOR is not just the same game as people like to label it.

here we go.

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by sammyeli

Originally posted by onthestick

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

 

It's pretty credible that he mentioned that sound and VO are the only changes to an otherwise same-game MMO. I didn't even mention anything, anywhere, regarding the rest of his open letter, just the information regarding the VO and sound (and that's because he's right). I would agree that, if this letter was written after the fact, that the sound and VO information did come directly from Bioware's news or information, in which case still doesn't solve the massive problem by making a game that replicates others, but with improved sound.

Again it is an opinion not a fact. Same game is such a vague term because i find plenty of things different in SWTOR. As long as other persons view points confirm your own..it is credible otherwise it is not. Credbility means facts..and his blog had none.

and what are these different things that you have plenty of?

 

Just asking, because people say these things and never mention what it is really.

Never mentioned? i mentioned it like million times but i will do it again... different things for me or what i like to call non standard features... modding system, crew skills, companion system, change in appearance on basis of light/dark choices, V.O has already been mentioned. These are some things just from top of my head which make SWTOR quite a different game for me.

I've actually found that just giving a laundry list of features when trying to prove that one game is different from another in inadequate.  Why?  Because it may not reflect the actual play experience of the game.

For example, SWTOR could (hypothetical) be different from WoW in every single possible way when considering the crafting system.  But this really wouldn't mean that much because the vast majority of players spend most of their time questing/PvPing/dungeons etc.

You really have to compare games on a basis of what players spend the most time doing.  And when I play SWTOR I do questing/BGs/Dungeons.  When I play WoW I do questing/BGs/Dungeons.

And when you compare these features from SWTOR to the equivalents in WoW...they are pretty similar.