The site itself is perfectly fine, as long as you ignore 95%-100% of the forums and can read between the lines and are capable of forming your own opinions when reading the blogs and reviews...

I have noticed the boards become very active during the day when ppl are working and then really slows down to a hand ful of ppl bashing it when others are playing the game. So its quite good to have some forum PVP before you go and play the game at night,

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by MindTrigger

A brand new, highly anticipated AAA title just launched, and it is clealy controversial on this site due to some of the design decisions.  The fever pitch of posts will die down on its own in a couple days as everyone plays it, or moves on with their lives.  

No offense to anyone but many have been carrying on the same topics for months, in some cases years. I wonder how they get away with it considering what's in the OP.

There is a limit to how much you can moderate a forum. Here you would be forced to ban every second poster or so, it just ain't possible.

But yeah, there are some people that really should be banned for posting the same post over and over.

Just expressing your opinion is another matter though, if you can't discuss what isn't good in a new game but just what is good it limits the discussing, even the best games have fault in them.

You're right, all games do have faults with them and SWTOR is no exception. The problem on these forums is that there'll never be a balanced discussion about it, because even if you enjoy the game any post you make that talks about possible improvements or issues you have will be hijacked by the half-dozen or so haters and used as proof that SWTOR is rubbish - "LOL even fanbois hate TOR!"

So we end up with what we've got; a totally polarised flamefest that's useless to anyone except those with an agenda to push.

Originally posted by Distopia

I just wonder where the limit is that's outlined by MIkeB. How do they gauge when a poster has said the same argument too much?

Now here is the slippery slope, how exactly does a mod judge when someone has posted too often, or too negatively, or made things too personal?  There are probably no hard and fast guidelines, and it would be burdensome for mods to go through the forums trying to find posters by name and count up how many infractions they have, hence why you don't see all that much control.

And despite the complaints by many in this thread that the forums are of poor quality due to a lack of proper moderation, you will see just as many folks stating the opposite, that the moderation here borders on facisim (yes, I know, hyperbole much) which I also don't agree with.

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

I've seen about 5 or 6 posters on this thread complain bitterly about the forums here being "trash", and it makes me wonder why they bother reading/posting here at all?  I'm here because I enjoy the forums as they are, and I still maintain that trolling is an imaginary concept, there is only discussion regardless how people try to label it to stifle the conversation.

Remember folks, trolls only exist in fantasy worlds, here on forums its just people enjoying a conversation, forum PVP if you will and it isn't for everyone I realize.

Protect Yourself

With

Censorship

basicly no arguing?ok fine mikeb!i suggest this then

add a an arguing channel for all our favorite mmo and add that live thread at the bottom of the website somewhere.

so this way you would get regular channel *MENTIONNING IN BIG LETTER NO ARGUING ALLOWED! and a similar bottom channel saying ARGUING ALLOWED!this way everybodys happy!

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Distopia

<>

<>

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

<>

 

Exactly. I don't understand why when someone is offended by someone else's comments, that instead of just blocking that person, the offended person wants to block that person from everyone else. I don't understand the psychology here. They aren't satisfied by just blocking that person from themselves. They want NO ONE else to hear or read the offending comments either. That just seems crazy to me. I don't want anyone else to decide for me what I should or shouldn't be able to read. 

If you don't like what someone says, then ignore the individual, block them, or just go somewhere else. But why in the fuck do you want to block that comment for everyone else? That is insanity and insanely controlling. Let others argue and bicker if they want to. Butt the fuck out if you don't like it.

PS, Kyleran is also right in that every heated argument is still a discussion or debate in some form or another. It will either play itself out and something fruitful will come out of it, or it won't. If it won't, no loss. They are just words. If something comes out of it, then that's great too. Either way, don't try to stop the conversation if you don't like it. Just go somewhere else.

Oh and of course there are always a few exceptions (such as it's fine to disallow people from posting child porn, etc).

Originally posted by Jimmac

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Distopia

<>

<>

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

<>

 

Exactly. I don't understand why when someone is offended by someone else's comments, that instead of just blocking that person, the offended person wants to block that person from everyone else. If you don't like it, then ignore the individual, block them, or just go somewhere else. But why in the fuck do you want to block that comment for everyone else? That is insanity and insanely controlling. Let others argue and bicker if they want to. Butt the fuck out if you don't like it.

PS, Kyleran is also right in that every heated argument is still a discussion or debate in some form or another. It will either play itself out and something fruitful will come out of it, or it won't. If it won't, no loss. They are just words. If something comes out of it, then that's great too. Either way, don't try to stop the conversation if you don't like it. Just go somewhere else.

Oh and of course there are always a few exceptions (such as it's fine to disallow people from posting child porn, etc).

i would agree with you if there was not an industry built around arguing everywhere (IT IS CALLED LOBBYING)

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by Jimmac

 

<>

i would agree with you if there was not an industry built around arguing everywhere (IT IS CALLED LOBBYING)

Well the existence of such a big and influential lobbying industry in the US is certainly a disgusting problem. I'm not sure lobbying is so much about free speech and the right to argue though as it is about tossing money around. In what way does the existence of the lobbying industry cause you to disagree with what I said above?

Or did I misunderstand which type of lobbying to which you were referring?

Originally posted by Kyleran

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

I absolutely agree with that.

Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Jimmac

<>

There hasn't been any conversation for months.

Lot of soapboxing, some preaching, some Crusading.  But does it qualify as conversation, when the same guy says essentially the same thing in virtually every post he makes?

The trolling is getting worse, the baiting as well.  I know the mods are worn out.  The personal attacks (in the wee hours of the morning) tend to be off the charts.  Early this morning the "Fresh Alt" brigade is out in force ripping on each other.

Where's the conversation?  Just a bunch of people concentrating on pushing the extremes as far as they possibly can.

WoW General is in better shape than this forum.

I honestly think there are some good conversations about SWTOR that take place on these forums. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you just don't see them, I don't know. Either way, reasonable minds could probably disagree about this. Even if I'm right that there are some good discussions on here, it is certainly true that there are plenty of "bad discussions." My only reply is that, in my opinion, if you personally think some thread or post or indivdual isn't worth replying to, then just don't. Block that asshole(s) and then continue on with the other civil people as politely and sanely as you can.

There are plenty of very civil people on this site who want to have good conversations. Don't respond to the trolls. Don't respond to any post you think is a trolling post or bait. Ignore the people who use insults and personal attacks. Then bang, everyone who is left is a civil person worth conversing with.

Also keep in mind that responding to trolls fuels their existence. Baiting is done for a reason. If people wouldn't take bait, then many of the fishermen would go away. The reason I don't want moderators to determine who is or isn't trolling is because different people will have different opinions on who is or isn't trolling, and I don't want some weary moderator who's just read a heated 375 pages of SWTOR v GW2 discussion to have to decide for me. If all the civil people can just decide for themselves, then the moderators won't be needed nearly as much.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

i would agree with you if there was not an industry built around arguing everywhere (IT IS CALLED LOBBYING)

Well, technically it's called viral marketing.

But its hard to make money at it, there are so many free volunteers.

The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

 And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

Originally posted by Ikeda

The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

Sorry, but you do not have the right to not be offended.

Originally posted by Ikeda

The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

 And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

No, it really doesn't work that way. But even so, nothing forces you to read what they post, heck, you don't even have to visit these forums, so they really aren't infringing on anyone's rights.

Most of these folks are actually adults, most children aren't really into forums, it's mostly an older person's pastime.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

I absolutely agree with that.

Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

 

On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."

Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

Originally posted by Ikeda

The freedom of speech is only a freedom so long as it doesn't infringe on my rights to not have to listen to it.

Running around yellin' u mad bro or SWToR suxx0rs in every thread is pointless.

 And attacking the poster for reporting MikeB's comments.... grow the hell up.  

I wonder how many of these little idiots are kids (which is kind of forgivable), teens (which should have their parents spanking their butts for stupid stuff like this), and adults (who wouldn't DARE make these comments outside of the anonymity of the internet because they KNOW they'd get their butts kicked).

And trolls like MT who purposely try to stir the pot should very WELL be banned from forums like this.  Course, they'll just make alt SWTORsux273828 and continue the flame wars so ignoring is often the better option.

Taking a quick look on the negative posts there I dont see anyone yelling about "u mad bro" or "SWToR suxxorz". Most of them rather say why they dont like the game in plain english and explain why.

I think it is rather you guys who read these posts and then in your head are translating it to juvenile comments because you dont agree with the posts and instead of discussing it on merits you try to discredit the post in other ways. And this is often what causes the flamewars.

I mean just look at your post. Calling people little idiots and adults who are cowards and what not. Clearly a post that is inciting bad responses from peopel criticizing the game.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

I absolutely agree with that.

Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

 

On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."

Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

 

Free Speech has nothing to do with privately owned meeting places and discussion arenas.

On a forum that I used to moderate there were lots of people that liked going overboard with topics so there was one off-topic board where we'd let a lot more slide than was allowed elsewhere. Maybe that might be a solution for here.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

See, that's the problem, for free speech to be truly free you can't put any limits on it, you have to take the good with the bad and if someone says something that really offends you, best idea is to just put them on ignore, or not even read the thread to begin with.

I absolutely agree with that.

Except, here on the forum, things that get argued really don't come under "Freedom of speech". And if someone DOES say something negative about the government or a political figure then they won't get thrown in jail.

That's where the Freedom of speech comes in.

but the reality is a person can't say anything they want to anyone they want without sometimes getting repercussions.

You can't walk into your locla bank and tell the teller off without getting some sort of repercussions. You can tell your boss off but it's possible you might be fired. I say "it's possible" because then someone is going to post "I tell my boss off all the time and we scream at each all day". Yes, yes but that's between both parties and apparently tha'ts something they both agree to.

I can insult a person in daily conversation and the cops aren't going to show up at my door. However, if I make a death threat or somethng really intense then it's possible that someone might take it seriously and there might be some "splainin' to do.

 

On many forums you can't say everything  you want in any way you want. That's just life. There's a time and a place.

So sure, go to your girlfriend's house, meet her 'nana and then tell that nana that her hairy face makes you sick. Then tell your girlfriend "it's ok, I have freedom of speech! She should just ignore me. Now how about that kiss...."

Well, of course I agree, you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre, free speech isn't totally free in every situation. (and has to be used with some discretion in certain situations naturally)

But here on forums I don't see a real issue, but I suppose the moderators would use the argument I just presented, saying the excessive negativity (or trolling as it were) exceeds the boundries as laid out by the forum owners and therefore should be controlled.

I'm not saying they can't control speech, or that they don't have a right to (it's their forum, right?) I'm just saying that once you go down the road of deciding what speech to moderate and what to let through its a difficult thing to manage and certainly won't make everyone happy.  

I realize that even leaving it unmoderated won't make people happy (well, besides me perhaps) and the owners have to decide what is the proper amount of control to keep the greatest number of visitors coming back.

 

I think these forums here are pretty ok when it comes to letting people post what they want.

If you want an example of a tightly controled forum, look at The Escapist.

You get warnings/bans for posting pictures or one-sentence responses. I think escapist went way overboard with moderation, especially when it comes to people that are posting harmless fun stuff and getting bans, contrary to people that post half a book of a well-worded racist mysogynistic piece on why gays should be put to death.

Im of the firm belief that "naming and shaming" is the best way to get rid of those people. Expose and ridicule their nonsense and they will go away.

Don't give them credibility by banning or moderating other peoples responses to that post.

I'm a bit of a free-speech libertarian myself.

Originally posted by Yamota

Taking a quick look on the negative posts there I dont see anyone yelling about "u mad bro" or "SWToR suxxorz". Most of them rather say why they dont like the game in plain english and explain why.

I think it is rather you guys who read these posts and then in your head are translating it to juvenile comments because you dont agree with the posts and instead of discussing it on merits you try to discredit the post in other ways. And this is often what causes the flamewars.

I mean just look at your post. Calling people little idiots and adults who are cowards and what not. Clearly a post that is inciting bad responses from peopel criticizing the game.

Well said.

Imo, it is a sign of maturity when somoene is able to post their opinion, comment on someone eles's opinion and have a general discussion without namecalling, belittling, or villifing the opposing/disenting opinions.