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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 and the holy trinity

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69 posts found
  IPolygon

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 709

12/22/11 4:29:06 PM#41
Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

So let me get this straight, iPolygon. In your opinion it is bad that devs forced PvPers to come up with new builds and tactics instead of letting them use same old stuff for years on end?

Yes, it is. You should never force a playstyle upon players or push them out of their comfort zone, unless the foundation is built on imbalanced skills, gear or other forms of customization. You don't force people to use a specific weapon in any popular shooter to stay competitive, you don't force people to use any specific strategy to stay competitive in any good rts, you don't force players to use a specific car for that route, you offer people freedom of choice and promote player skill in a number of ways.

Any competent pvp player would agree, that tactics and strategy should always fall into the sovereignty of the player. Player skill doesn't consist solely of knowing stats, recognizing units, weapons, whatever on the battlefield, but also to change tactics if you want to and make strategies as you see fit. That's the pinnacle of any good pvp game and it was in existance for several months or years consecutively in the history of GW1. It was represented by the balanced build and although you had to make small changes to some of those skills, maybe change a runner build completely due to map or strategy, you could always run that, because not some gimmick build could defeat a well played balanced.

It had no specific strength skill wise, but you could answer to all threats and change tactics according to your will. This is what held many many players for years (including me).

However as soon as you dictate play in a competitive scene, it degrades and loses a lot of players due to gameplay getting dull. You can't outshine your enemy by knowing more of the game and adapting to the situation, you simply outshine your enemy in playing what was dictated better. This is the worst thing that could happen to any pvp game.

 

Edit:

Guild Wars 2 is nothing like Guild Wars 1... deal with it.

 

You may be right in the sense of general game design, but you might be wrong in skill balance and skill design. I am expressing my doubts of an completely balanced game and fear they will go for the same fotm-like skill update philosophy as they did with GW1. After all, it's the same company.

  User Deleted
12/22/11 4:42:36 PM#42

Very different, GW1 started with 30 and ended with 90 profession combinations, and each combination had hundreds of skills to choose their build from. Must have been a nighmare puzzle to get any balance in it.

GW2 has no profession combo's, so 8 classes is just 8 classes, and far, far fewer skill combinations to balance out.

  IPolygon

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 709

12/23/11 10:18:08 AM#43

Essentially secondary professions where there to add another dimension to one profession. Whether it'd be offensive or defensive, you could do something your profession was originally not designed to. In GW2 secondary professions are combined with primary professions, you may not read R/Mo or anything before the character name, but you have not only one more dimension in GW2, but for each additional weapon set another one.

Weapon sets are designed to fulfil a specific role, basically which was the archetype profession for traditional rpgs is the archetype of weapons to a single profession. Since you can swap between  two weapon sets in combat, you can have that much more possibilites role-wise that you never had in GW1. In GW1 (for everyone not knowing) you could only change your skill bar in non-instanced zones.

Therefore you need to balance weapon sets for much more different situations AND combinations. Since you can swap parts of a weapon set in combat too, you basically look at many more possible combinations IN a single fight, than in a whole battle session in GW1. Talk about complexity!

---

I see this is getting a little off-topic, but it's important to note, that this game is much more complex than GW1 ever was, although the number of mathematical combinations may be smaller, because the number of actually usable combinations is much higher. Well, you could also add cross profession combos and traits to the list of combinations, but I left them out for now.

  User Deleted
12/23/11 11:05:01 AM#44

This guys has won the internet O_O. IPoly i mean

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

12/23/11 11:13:02 AM#45
Originally posted by Polarisation

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

You can succeed with only one class, and can win PvP without the ones you have stated.

Lets just see how your ele does when you get close to my thief. :D

ANET is so far the only company that have been able to keep some balance in PvP, that you think that there are 3 classes that are better and a must have tells more about you than GW2.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/23/11 11:34:57 AM#46
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Polarisation

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

You can succeed with only one class, and can win PvP without the ones you have stated.

Lets just see how your ele does when you get close to my thief. :D

ANET is so far the only company that have been able to keep some balance in PvP, that you think that there are 3 classes that are better and a must have tells more about you than GW2.

The problem as I see it is that many people are still thinking of GW2 in terms of the old trinity concept. They still think of damage, control and support as three separate things instead of what they really are... different aspects of one thing... combat. As a result, they still think you need three characters to cover each aspect, not realizing that every character is built around all three aspects at the same time. You may be able to tweak your character to favor an aspect a little more than another, but you'll always be your own self-contained "trinity". That being as it may, though, there's also the situation where the sum is greater than the parts. When you add cross-profession combos, skills that compliment each other, the dynamic combat  requiring awareness etc. and the fact that skill will always be > gear... well, this is so alien to many people mentally married to the archaic trinity style that rather than adapt their mind to what new they try to pull GW2 back to what they're used to... then complain that it doesn't do it like they're used to.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Granrey

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 53

12/23/11 3:39:47 PM#47

I see the new GW2 as basketball.

Some teams have a guy that is too good ( a boss) for one opposing player (the tank) to guard him alone . So, manager switch the fouls and guard reponsabilities among all the players. 

Thats what Anet is doing. At any given time, somebody is tanking, somebody is healing, somebody is doing DPS but it does not have to be the same characters every time in every ocasion, no need to say during the entire fight. 

  Elifia

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 78

12/23/11 8:37:55 PM#48


Originally posted by Granrey
I see the new GW2 as basketball.
Some teams have a guy that is too good ( a boss) for one opposing player (the tank) to guard him alone . So, manager switch the fouls and guard reponsabilities among all the players. 
Thats what Anet is doing. At any given time, somebody is tanking, somebody is healing, somebody is doing DPS but it does not have to be the same characters every time in every ocasion, no need to say during the entire fight. 

Well, it goes a bit further than that. And you don't even have any form of tanking or healing as you know it, because there is no 'threat' system (taunts, high threat abilities, etc, do not exist) and you can't even target your allies with anything. The heals that can actually affect your allies are pathetic compared to their self-healing skills.

It's more like, everyone is doing damage, but some focus on supporting their team with auras and everything, others on keeping the enemy controlled with stuff like stuns (just the most basic example, there are many more afflictions to control the opponent), while the rest really just focuses on maximum damage output. Those are the 'roles', which you can switch between at any given moment.

"I'll lead, you follow."

  Magnetia

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 978

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

12/23/11 8:53:04 PM#49

People seem to be under the illusion that the holy trinity has been eliminated but this is simply not true. They are only getting rid of the necessity of it. Guild Wars 2 has stated many times that there WILL BE a heavy damage taking type class (I should really say weapon choice as war or guardian) as well as squishier less in your face type people (the casters for the most part) Now what guild wars 2 changes is the way that PVE combat works. Normally in a dungeon you would need a tank/heal/dps but GW2 gets rid of one of those classes, the healer.

That leaves tanking and dps now i'm not saying you won't have a tank in the dungeon but what I am saying is that the tank does not have to be a warrior or guradian. 5 Elementalists or 5 warriors can do the same dungeon if they used their positioning and kiting/cc skills or in the case of warriors 5 tanks could do also beat the same fight. 

In a traditional dungeon you did not have the option of taking 5 thieves or 5 elementalists into a dungeon. (See heroic difficulty dungeons in wow) Someone HAD to play the tank, someone HAD to be the healer and there MUST be 3 dps. That is what Gw2 is getting rid of. That is the trinity that is getting eliminated.

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

12/23/11 9:40:45 PM#50
Originally posted by Magnetia

People seem to be under the illusion that the holy trinity has been eliminated but this is simply not true. They are only getting rid of the necessity of it. Guild Wars 2 has stated many times that there WILL BE a heavy damage taking type class (I should really say weapon choice as war or guardian) as well as squishier less in your face type people (the casters for the most part) Now what guild wars 2 changes is the way that PVE combat works. Normally in a dungeon you would need a tank/heal/dps but GW2 gets rid of one of those classes, the healer.

That leaves tanking and dps now i'm not saying you won't have a tank in the dungeon but what I am saying is that the tank does not have to be a warrior or guradian. 5 Elementalists or 5 warriors can do the same dungeon if they used their positioning and kiting/cc skills or in the case of warriors 5 tanks could do also beat the same fight. 

In a traditional dungeon you did not have the option of taking 5 thieves or 5 elementalists into a dungeon. (See heroic difficulty dungeons in wow) Someone HAD to play the tank, someone HAD to be the healer and there MUST be 3 dps. That is what Gw2 is getting rid of. That is the trinity that is getting eliminated.

Wow, you really fail to make a point there. I mean you say that the holy trinity is still in Guild Wars 2 and yet then you say that they removed the necessity for the holy trinity and the completely got rid of the heal aspect. So how is there still a trinity? If there's no healer and there's no need to do a dungeon with a tank, dps, heal set-up. Then what you ended up saying is that there isn't a holy trinity in Guild Wars 2.

 

Also you seem to have so many misconceptions about the professions. Like the Guardian cannot soak damage, because of it's small health pool, and the supposedly squishy Necromancer is in-fact the most survivable profession in the game. Just like Volkon said earlier, you're just the kind of person who's mentally married to the archaic trinity design and because you are unable to adapt, you will not survive this change in the MMO group paradigm unless you stop thinking in trinities.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4852

12/23/11 9:50:44 PM#51
Originally posted by Magnetia

People seem to be under the illusion that the holy trinity has been eliminated but this is simply not true. They are only getting rid of the necessity of it. Guild Wars 2 has stated many times that there WILL BE a heavy damage taking type class (I should really say weapon choice as war or guardian) as well as squishier less in your face type people (the casters for the most part) Now what guild wars 2 changes is the way that PVE combat works. Normally in a dungeon you would need a tank/heal/dps but GW2 gets rid of one of those classes, the healer.

That leaves tanking and dps now i'm not saying you won't have a tank in the dungeon but what I am saying is that the tank does not have to be a warrior or guradian. 5 Elementalists or 5 warriors can do the same dungeon if they used their positioning and kiting/cc skills or in the case of warriors 5 tanks could do also beat the same fight. 

In a traditional dungeon you did not have the option of taking 5 thieves or 5 elementalists into a dungeon. (See heroic difficulty dungeons in wow) Someone HAD to play the tank, someone HAD to be the healer and there MUST be 3 dps. That is what Gw2 is getting rid of. That is the trinity that is getting eliminated.

You've got it half-right, half-wrong.

It does change the way PvE combat works, and they did eliminate the dedicated healer. However, The dedicated tank is ALSO gone. Yes, there are classes (cough* guardian) that seem exceptionally good at taking straight up damage. However, the way the game is being setup, classes will have to take turns with this. The guardian will be much more viable at being a PvP tank than a PvE one. They will have to switch roles periodically during the fight (both to help support allies, and to control the fight / do some damage).

That's how the game is functioning, players are constantly switching between damage / support / and control throughout the fight. This is the SAME class doing this, and each player is doing it in his / her own way.

Again, a very basic example I used, is the Guardian's Wall ablity. It can be used either defensively (to keep enemies away from your group) or offensively (to keep enemies inside a space / aoe attack / trap / etc.). Same skill, 2 completely different uses. This type of thing is very prevelant in GW2, and we will find that the smarter players will be taking advantage of this, while the rest fall into predetermined roles.

This same sort of situation happened in GW1, and what people ended up finding is that there wasn't any 1 tank class, that every class could tank w/ the right build, and that it was your playstyle, skill, and build determined the outcome of the fight. GW2 might be a different game, but the same holds true, only more-so.

  Yaos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 154

12/24/11 12:54:40 AM#52

What throws people is the idea of damage/support/control. It sounds similar to current MMOs, but it's different. You damage enemies, support friendlies, and control the field. The last one is the most important, you don't control the monsters, you control the field.

Think of Chess as it uses a similar approch. Every peice dies in one hit and every peice kills in one hit. You must control the board as you have no way to control the enemy; you do this by supporting friendly peices through sacrifice, denying movement to your oppenent by your unit placement, and by taking out enemy peices. At no point can you taunt a peice (you can taunt your opponent though and get them to make a bad move :) ) and force it to attack another peice. At no point can you heal peices or raise them from the dead. Even pawns can be used to control the field despite being even weaker than the King. Nobody has ever thought that Chess would be be so much better if one of the peices could be used to taunt the enemy while the Queen sits in the back raising the dead and pawns wail on incoming knights and rooks.

Thing about Chess though, sometimes peices are only used for a certain role until they die, but at any time you can change their role. Perhaps you were using a knight to force your opponent to take a certain route, but then your opponent does something unexpected so now you need to use your knight to start attacking. Just think if at the start of the game you had to decide which peices were allowed to attack, it would really ruin the game.

GW2 is taking the same approach. You can't directly control enemies, but you can try force them to take the path you want. It's removing the idea of just taking hits, and giving players the ability to control how monsters can move abount the field. Every class can control the field in some way, and it may be that in some dungeons you'll find that using multiple methods of control will help. For example, maybe the giant boss is going after the Mesmer, so he teleports to another location and just as the boss gets there a Guardian throws up the shield wall while other players blast him with their awesome skills.

Thought of something funny, the King is completely powerless and has to hide while the Queen can do whatever she wants. :)

  Morcelll

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/09
Posts: 412

12/24/11 1:34:09 AM#53
Originally posted by Polarisation

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

First of all you show a complete lack of knowledge on what the holy trinity is or means..

The holy trinity is tank/heals/dps.

GW2 doesn't have tanks, and it doesn't have dedicated healers.  Thus there is no holy trinity.  Warrior, Guardian, Ele does not translate into the Holy Trinity.  Also, the Guardian isn't a healer or even a dedicated supporter for that matter.  It can do all things depending on your weapon setup in the new ANet Trinity, which is Control, Support, DPS.

 

Also, I just want you to know, Guardian, Warrior, and Ele is far from the most viable build..  Please inform yourself, read this post by Izzy one of the lead devs about their competitive PvP builds.  http://guildwars2pvp.com/2011/09/team-arenanets-pvp-builds/

 

  Granrey

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 53

12/24/11 2:13:31 AM#54
Originally posted by Elifia

 


Originally posted by Granrey
I see the new GW2 as basketball.
Some teams have a guy that is too good ( a boss) for one opposing player (the tank) to guard him alone . So, manager switch the fouls and guard reponsabilities among all the players. 
Thats what Anet is doing. At any given time, somebody is tanking, somebody is healing, somebody is doing DPS but it does not have to be the same characters every time in every ocasion, no need to say during the entire fight. 


 

Well, it goes a bit further than that. And you don't even have any form of tanking or healing as you know it, because there is no 'threat' system (taunts, high threat abilities, etc, do not exist) and you can't even target your allies with anything. The heals that can actually affect your allies are pathetic compared to their self-healing skills.

It's more like, everyone is doing damage, but some focus on supporting their team with auras and everything, others on keeping the enemy controlled with stuff like stuns (just the most basic example, there are many more afflictions to control the opponent), while the rest really just focuses on maximum damage output. Those are the 'roles', which you can switch between at any given moment.

I understand it goes more complicated than that, I just tried to make it simple.

It was explained that aparently mobs will be agroed by whoever is closest to them.  This should allow tank switching (or whoever has agro).

However, I was seeing the vidoes on youtube and it appears nobody has agro on the boss. The boss appears randombly attacking everybody or simply applying AOE regardless if anybody is close by and boss does not move  or chase at all and everybody to their own attacking the boss.

Again, I'm tired of playing games asking for tanks, healers and so on. I just want to play with my friends regardless their profesions. So, I'm all for it.

I just hope is fun

There are videos on youtube about the boss fights that everybody can watch and see the mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nCHPl_mEU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5RpX9oAaSo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1JfSbKjHHI&feature=related

BTw, the bosses on GW2 are way too big IMO (I know is more epic). It looks like ants fighting a horse. Acording to the videos these are only the small bosses LOL

Imagine a single player tanking one of these bosses, it would look very stupid LOL

  semantikron

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/07
Posts: 260

12/24/11 11:16:25 AM#55
Originally posted by Yaos

....

Thought of something funny, the King is completely powerless and has to hide while the Queen can do whatever she wants. :)

Powerless?!?  The King is SO powerful he must be constrained to only moving one space at a time.  Whereas the poor little Queen has to be allowed to move every which way or she'd be completely useless.  :D

Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.

  KingJiggly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/11
Posts: 807

Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome.

12/24/11 11:01:46 PM#56
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by KingJiggly
Originally posted by thedarkess
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

I am so confused... lets take a look at why!

1. Anet has stated that, not Bioware... you seem confused on what forum your on...

2. PvP will be balanced, Gw1 was very good at balanceing, now, while there are some cheap builds (Blind Eles), there was always some sort of counter, just pay attention to what is running.

3. Gw2 does not have a dual profession system.

I hope to god you all are messing around :P

 

 

It may be now, I don't know since I quit the game a couple of months ago due to a dead guild and 50/50 score in the hom-calculator, but after Factions was released, this game was in a really bad shape balance-wise. GvG had probably the worst tiebreaker in gaming history and you could grief the other team with a couple of builds. Moving on, the game went from one flotm (flavour of the month) to the next, which wasn't that bad from a gaming perspective, because one build could always be played, thus keeping the game accessible: balanced.

Then at some point balanced got killed and you had to learn new builds and new professions each month (or two depending on the rate of skill balance updates). At this point a lot of really old players quit GW1 for some time, because the scene degraded due to bad skill design and balance that got worse from time to time.

Due to lack of knowledge of the game or sheer ignorance, the game got updated mostly in favour of pve, which has always been the main selling point and the most players. Due to the power creep, which was introduced with each new campaing/addon it was very difficult to keep GvG on a high level and due to incompetence the fotm-design was getting more and more important.

I do remember someone from ANet saying that fotm keeps the game interesting, how could somebody be so wrong for both pve and pvp. Very few people are creative enough or want to dedicate that much time for a new build. Most of us want to go with the ones that are tested and working. Hence fotm had a minor positiv impact on the crowd, when many others had to relearn their profession, their builds.

I remember when Mesmer was mostly shutdown and edenial. Someone on the skill balance department thought it would be bad to make people think about energy-management and recharge, thus alienating the Mesmer more and more from CC to raw/armor ignoring damage.

---

I don't care how many skills there are, you brought that on yourself, make them balanced or lock them out of high level pvp.

And no, the dual class system is the reason why gimmick builds are a problem, but they aren't the reason for bad skill balance. It's bad skill design that kills balance.

Ok, so your talking about gw1.

Your first paragraph is basically giving an excuse on why you are ignorant, and later giving you a back up story to fall on if you get hammered to hard... "Oh, I didn't know! I so srry..." which leaves me to think why you are commenting at all if you say you know so little about today's gameplay? Hmmm? Now, as I continue reading, you say that builds constantly found conters for each other, but they eventually found that the "Perfect Build"... I hope to god you could give me one of these "Perfect Builds" that have no counter. Then you say all the old players left bacause of "lack" of balance and these "Perfect Builds", or is it simply bacause they are to lazy to find a counter? It is always possible to find a counter to a build in GW.

The next thing is Flotm. I see this in Gw alot, an agree with you that it exists. But you say that few people are willing to change... but you just said earlier that it does change. You know, Flotm? It changes monthly? So there obviously are people creative enough to change... and change again... and again... and that counters to those builds change.... again... and again... about Monthly, right?

The Mesmer. Oh, the #$&^ing annoying Mesmer. I remember just this morning getting ruoted to death by the Mesmer, and using my own Mesmer to rupt eles in JQ. Backfire, Empathy, Chaos Storm... you know. The point of the Mesmer isn't to just Edenial and Rupt, it is to shutdown. Monk Shutdown Mes, JQ shutdown Mes, SHUTDOWN. The Mesmer fills that roll, one that was actually new to the MMO genre. And again, builds change... so maybe one day that old player mesmer will return.

Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different.

---

Skills allow for change, and allow for counters to other skills (of you choose to use them).

If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway.

---

Also, GW2 will be much different. Much, Much different.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

  IPolygon

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 709

12/25/11 2:28:57 PM#57

@KingJiggly,  it seems you didn't get at all what I was talking about. It's not about a perfect build, but a balanced build, which means no gimmick build (like kappa/blood/glyph of sacrifice-whatever it's called spike). A balanced build is a build that can literally counter any and everything, if played well. Also, I wrote that part about my retirement, because I don't know how pvp currently is and wanted to give a reason for that. I explicitely wanted to leave the current metagame out of my contribution.

If you knew the GW community then you'd also know that the vast majority of players simply copy-paste builds from pvxwiki or whatever the source is. The very minor part actually creates new builds, which are copied one someone wins an aT or maT with that build.

"Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different."

I didn't say that. I said that they get the majority of their money from selling pve content!

Also, I don't count PvEvP (JQ, FA) as high level pvp.

"If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway."

No, it doesn't. Just because you CAN counter something, doesn't make it easy to counter or balanced. Did you ever play build wars at all? Also I don't mind Grenth Dervish. He is probably the weakest of all forms. 

Read my lines again and think about them first, please.

 

 

Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.

 

Edit:

Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

12/25/11 5:57:14 PM#58
Originally posted by IPolygon

....

Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.

 Edit:

Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)

Huh? Well it seems you do know a little something about Guild Wars 2, which makes it harder to understand why you constantly go into a rant about Guild Wars 1. ArenaNet know themselves that the GW1 PvP scene was flawed, in several ways, which is why they pretty much scrapped every mechanic of the game in favour of what they put in place. It is why there is no dual spec. It's to reduce the number of variables, thus granting each profession with greater focus and making the PvP easier to balance.

  User Deleted
12/25/11 6:19:09 PM#59

Lets just get the great white Yeti out of the room shall we? All of this talk about GW2 having a holy trinity are from people who want it to have a holy trinity so when their flavor of the month themepark loses its luster they can scamper over here do the end game raiding loot tables. I'm sure there are pro Raiders on the GW2 forums right now demanding end game raid content and phat lootz. Its Wishful Thinking is what it is. Their holding on to the holy trinity like a pacifier hoping GW2 is another WOW clone. 

  KingJiggly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/11
Posts: 807

Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome.

12/25/11 8:28:10 PM#60
Originally posted by IPolygon

@KingJiggly,  it seems you didn't get at all what I was talking about. It's not about a perfect build, but a balanced build, which means no gimmick build (like kappa/blood/glyph of sacrifice-whatever it's called spike). A balanced build is a build that can literally counter any and everything, if played well. Also, I wrote that part about my retirement, because I don't know how pvp currently is and wanted to give a reason for that. I explicitely wanted to leave the current metagame out of my contribution.

If you knew the GW community then you'd also know that the vast majority of players simply copy-paste builds from pvxwiki or whatever the source is. The very minor part actually creates new builds, which are copied one someone wins an aT or maT with that build.

"Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different."

I didn't say that. I said that they get the majority of their money from selling pve content!

Also, I don't count PvEvP (JQ, FA) as high level pvp.

"If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway."

No, it doesn't. Just because you CAN counter something, doesn't make it easy to counter or balanced. Did you ever play build wars at all? Also I don't mind Grenth Dervish. He is probably the weakest of all forms. 

Read my lines again and think about them first, please.

 

 

Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.

 

Edit:

Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)

Are you talking about a balanced PvP or a build? Earlier, you were saying PvP as a whole was unfair. Now, while there are gimmick builds, such as blind ele, they again can be countered by.. Mes, Enchantment Removal (Most profs can do that, necro has one skill that can remove like 10), or some sort of condition remover/ skill. You completely move away from saying "Anet is bad a skill balance" to there are builds that counter everything, even though this obviously isn't true if there is a FOTM! Because, if there were one of these "Balance Builds" there wouldn't be one, proving Anet does have good skill balance/ proffesion balance.

I agree with you on people using pvx wiki to their advantage for builds. However, often times as the metagame change (and it often does, even more now with the monthly flux) they often become either obsolete... heck pvx still has to update builds since the changes to the Dervs. Anyone with a half capable mind would be able to see pvx wiki is a) outdated b) rarely fixed by its own members and c) the game simply doesn't have the population anymore that cares, beuase as you said earlier all the "old players" left because they refuse to change, or add one skill to change help their team, which leaves me happy that they are gone.

Finally, yes there is a trinity. They do rely on one another. If you don't control the area, how can you support people? If you have no damage, how can you control the area? If you don't support people, How can you control AND grow push out from the area you are in? 

And caling me a troll or "not knowing the game real well" when you yourself have said you didn't know the CURRENT METAGAME is hypocritical.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

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