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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 and the holy trinity

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69 posts found
  Pilnkplonk

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1558

12/21/11 3:59:45 AM#21
Originally posted by Polarisation

let's just say it's something i've heard.

it isn't all that surprising that the best PVP team is based around the best dps, crowd-control and support/heal classes.

Granted that noone has really seen the mesmer in action, but without the energy denial and game-changing interrupts of GW1, it's hard to see him being a major factor.

So you are implying you got your inormation from beta.

Well if it's true, which I doubt, then this is what betas are for. A while ago necromancer was almost godlike in PvP but ANet tweaked it somewhat, especially the downed death-shroud mechanic, and now its fine.

  Naqaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1672

12/21/11 4:14:07 AM#22
Originally posted by MMOExposed 
I would like to add to this.

gw2 does still have a trinity. It's just not tank/healer/dps. It's something else.

 

More importantly, it's not fixed. Any character can take any role at any given time.

  rdash

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/08
Posts: 121

12/21/11 5:08:24 AM#23
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by MMOExposed 
I would like to add to this.

gw2 does still have a trinity. It's just not tank/healer/dps. It's something else.

 

More importantly, it's not fixed. Any character can take any role at any given time.

Technically, in Holy Trinity games DPS can become a Tank (for about 1 second or so). The key difference is that swapping roles is more effective than sticking to them, which is opposite to how Holy Trinity games work.

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3804

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/21/11 7:30:39 AM#24
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Kuraphimaru

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 1293

12/21/11 11:09:48 AM#25


Originally posted by DerWotan
The boss drake is very impressive but the fight meh, doesn't even move just fly a bit.

Well, someone on these boards once commented really well about static-like behavior of dragons. It would look rather odd if such big creature like a dragon was hopping around like a bunny.



Originally posted by MMOExposed
gw2 does still have a trinity. It's just not tank/healer/dps. It's something else.

Yea, its a so called damage/support/control trinity. However, there is a big difference in GW2 trinity and holy trinity. In most games you are locked into your role the moment you choose your class but in GW2 you can be all 3 things whenever you need to be them.

P.S. Rift is only game that comes to my mind that has holy trinity but allows you to change the role on the fly ... to a certain extent.

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

12/21/11 11:19:05 AM#26
Originally posted by Polarisation

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

An all Thieves group will kick the collective asses of your "holy trinity" group if they are superior players.  Player skill trumps character build in GW2. 

OP classes: the last refuge of lousy players.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5363

I dare you to pin a label on me.

12/21/11 5:41:59 PM#27

You have to wonder why people insist on calling it "trinity" when they have to explain it like: "Its not holy trinity but..." "...and you don't really stick to one role and..." etc.

Anet probably explained it through A trinity so that people would have easier time to grasp it. I don't think it has a trinity, tho. It would be stretching the term too much.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  IPolygon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 699

12/21/11 6:14:32 PM#28
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

  Zeus.CM

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1790

www.croatian-maniacs.com

12/21/11 6:18:06 PM#29
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

  KingJiggly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/11
Posts: 807

Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome.

12/21/11 7:22:43 PM#30
Originally posted by thedarkess
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

I am so confused... lets take a look at why!

1. Anet has stated that, not Bioware... you seem confused on what forum your on...

2. PvP will be balanced, Gw1 was very good at balanceing, now, while there are some cheap builds (Blind Eles), there was always some sort of counter, just pay attention to what is running.

3. Gw2 does not have a dual profession system.

I hope to god you all are messing around :P

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

  User Deleted
12/21/11 7:51:20 PM#31
Originally posted by KingJiggly
Originally posted by thedarkess
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

I am so confused... lets take a look at why!

1. Anet has stated that, not Bioware... you seem confused on what forum your on...

2. PvP will be balanced, Gw1 was very good at balanceing, now, while there are some cheap builds (Blind Eles), there was always some sort of counter, just pay attention to what is running.

3. Gw2 does not have a dual profession system.

I hope to god you all are messing around :P

I don't know if you're replying to thedarkess or IPolygon, but thedarkess is talking about GW1.

  KingJiggly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/11
Posts: 807

Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome.

12/21/11 10:00:46 PM#32
Originally posted by cali59
Originally posted by KingJiggly
Originally posted by thedarkess
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

I am so confused... lets take a look at why!

1. Anet has stated that, not Bioware... you seem confused on what forum your on...

2. PvP will be balanced, Gw1 was very good at balanceing, now, while there are some cheap builds (Blind Eles), there was always some sort of counter, just pay attention to what is running.

3. Gw2 does not have a dual profession system.

I hope to god you all are messing around :P

I don't know if you're replying to thedarkess or IPolygon, but thedarkess is talking about GW1.

IPolygon mainly, I just wanted to add the no dual proffesion because it sounds like he was talking of Gw1, and because it seems there are a lot of uninformed people in this thread.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

  steeler989

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 668

Don't freak out, it is just a game.

12/21/11 10:02:05 PM#33
Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

 


Originally posted by DerWotan
Well I'm not a GW 2 fanboy but le me toll you one thing:
This game does not have a trinity. Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. So basically everyone can do everything just the way they are doing it is different, just Rifts super-duper-classsystem only taken a step further.
From what I've seen and read about this game its like:
Everyone is responsible for themselves, if everyone is doing the job for himself right the group will succed, but sadly there are no things like helping out your group cause you can't be a healer or tank.
 


 

A. I think you meant ArenaNet instead of Bioware.
B. You can help the group with cross class combos.
C. Lets not feed the troll.

Every time a make a coment like that, i get reported. WTF?


  User Deleted
12/21/11 10:09:06 PM#34
Originally posted by Polarisation

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

this explains why you have one star under your name, it doesn't have a trinity it's not finished and it's in closed betas so if there were any previous assumptions about a class being op it's being fixed NOW before launch. that's number 1 number 2: the classes all have similar abilities dots and a single ability per bar that can be used as an emergency heal. 3: every class has a down not a dead a down, which means you can be healed you can be brought back or you can heal yourself and finally: their trinity isn't warrior guardian ele it's damage cc and support. maybe if you spent less time posting nonsense and actually READ what they have for features you might not make statements like this in the future.

  Clob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/06/08
Posts: 132

12/21/11 11:28:25 PM#35
Originally posted by Polarisation

let's just say it's something i've heard.

it isn't all that surprising that the best PVP team is based around the best dps, crowd-control and support/heal classes.

Granted that noone has really seen the mesmer in action, but without the energy denial and game-changing interrupts of GW1, it's hard to see him being a major factor.

LOL!!!  mmmkay.  You heard, huh?

-------

just some stuff from the reddit 'answer all questions,' related or not:

Question #81: "Is the mesmer overpowered?"
Answer: "Absolutely! Just as overpowered as the other 7!"

 Question #135: "To Izzy: One of the best things about competitive GW1 PvP was that a perfectly united team was always the most successful. If you had a team that could (for example) spike perfectly, and would operate as a big, organized unit, you'd never lose to a less organized team. The biggest "imbalance" of HA was IWAY, where people complained the game became less fun when the dominate play-style did not require ventrilo or coordinated organization. With conquest, do we have to abandon this united organization we love? Why does conquest constantly try to discourage operating as a unit, and encourage splitting up and acting as individuals?"
Answer "We still find this to be true, an organized team still spikes, coordiantes collapses, pushes the enemy objectives, reacts to the enemies tactics and movements as a group. (Chap they just killed our treb. I'll grab the repair part, you clear the center path for me. John C resses in 20 secs let make sure it's up in time) or (Chap Rampage is up in 20 seconds meet me in middle for a big push, John C we need treb fire in the middle asap). Capture points just represent territory.  You care about and control so it creates things to fight over. Coordination and team work at the highest level is still beyond important. ~Izzy"

 Question #184: "Fast one - do you guys worry about 1v1 balance when, well, balancing the game? Or just group balance around the 5v5 format for organized PvP? (also, please tell me wich class dominates 1v1 so I can roam WvWvW alone late in the night feeling like a predator)"
Answer: "Every profession gets balanced in a variety of environments, and they all have the ability to do well in 1v1. That being said, I thought I would be ganking with warrior or thief in our world v world tests, but I've found myself using my Mesmer for that stuff the last few times. That could just be because he is my new shiny character though..."

Question #207: "HEY! I'm so excited to try this game out when it goes live!!! I've been following development pretty closely, and I'm actually not a GW1 player, but this game really really appeals to me somehow! What is your favorite class in the game so far, and why? "
Answer: "I think it's the thief.  I really enjoy characters with a lot of mobility and I love the steal mechanic, stealing something random and then having to find the most opimnal use for it really appeals to me. I find I play a lot of warrior, ranger and some Ele with a dash of Necro. ~Izzy"

^ the thief?  And that's coming from ANet's "pvp guy"

A couple reasons to not worry as much about fotm profession:

Question #116: "When i start the game to pvp: can I choose any class, access every skill/weapon, and play in all facets of pvp right away ? or is there some sort of progression/unlocking system to access different areas or facets of PvP?"
Answer: "Yup, make a character, hit the go to PvP button and play."

Question #154: "My favorite aspect of GW was the flexibility for setting up multiplayer classes, especially when designing and building groups. I really enjoyed the pvp and what pve I did, I had too. What are the plans for GW2 with regards to PvP skills and gear? "
Answer "In competitive PvP all players start with access to the same skills and gear. You don't have to do any PvE at all if you don't want to."

And just something to add that could be pretty cool:

Question #195: "In case anyone sees this later I forgot to ask. Will there be underwater PvP?"
Answer: "yes. . This is Jon btw..."

----------


I have to say that the premise of this thread is premature to be honest.  Someone is making statements and assumptions regarding the pvp balance of a game that has just entered closed beta.  With any experience of ANet one would also know that they are historically very quick and accurate with changes to professions/skills that are being "abused" because they are difficult to defend.  I am of course referring to GW over the first few years while it was still their priority and focus.  Yes, a handful of team builds took longer to squash, but as whole they competently handled issues while allowing specific builds to remain that were fun but not significantly game-breaking. 

Finally, stating that  "the best PVP team is based around the best dps, crowd-control and support/heal classes," is still an assumption that the three "best" professions at the given tasks are or will remain the warrior, guardian and ele while the game is developed and then periodically updated.  One thing specifically stated is that there isn't typical tanking in GW2.  The warrior may fill that role the best if forced, but how does that make it the best crowd control profession?  A water ele is supposedly very good at healing, so does that make it the best dps and healing profession?  Necros have wells, rangers have spring, engineers have med kits, etc.  And a final point, the portals that mesmers can create are usable by all members of the party (portal range being = to radar range).  That is something that can be extremely useful in specific pvp instances.
 

 

 

 

  User Deleted
12/21/11 11:55:24 PM#36
Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

 


Originally posted by DerWotan
The boss drake is very impressive but the fight meh, doesn't even move just fly a bit.


 

Well, someone on these boards once commented really well about static-like behavior of dragons. It would look rather odd if such big creature like a dragon was hopping around like a bunny.



 

Got your point but keep in mind, dragons DO move just not as fast as other characters. Think, you misunderstood my pov I'm talking about a dragon what he is supposed to do based on "dragon lore" if you wanna call it that way:

tailhit failed to see any of that. He stood there waiting to get hit, with some abilities like massfear, little flying and some sort of damaging absorbing thornshield...but thats about it. 

Yeah, he shouldn't walk around like a bunny but how about flying causing things like earth-shattering, calling for help, mezz your character and stuff like that? I mean, afterall - again according to the lore - dragons are on of the most intelligent monsters so they should be more than just static and very impressive creations agreed?

 

  IPolygon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 699

12/22/11 11:32:44 AM#37
Originally posted by KingJiggly
Originally posted by thedarkess
Originally posted by IPolygon
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Polarisation
Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

Any three professions, with skilled players behind them, can beat any other three professions.

 

One thing ANet does better than most is balance PvP. Fear not, little one.

ANet sucks at game balance. Just take a look at GW1.

 

Oh and btw: I'd like to see your team consisting of one warrior, one guardian and one elementalist getting crushed by my engineer, thief, mesmer, ranger and ranger combo.

excuse you! 10 professions, dual profession system = 90 posible combinations. Game has over 1300 skills! It's as balanced as it can be! Give them some credit..

I am so confused... lets take a look at why!

1. Anet has stated that, not Bioware... you seem confused on what forum your on...

2. PvP will be balanced, Gw1 was very good at balanceing, now, while there are some cheap builds (Blind Eles), there was always some sort of counter, just pay attention to what is running.

3. Gw2 does not have a dual profession system.

I hope to god you all are messing around :P

 

 

It may be now, I don't know since I quit the game a couple of months ago due to a dead guild and 50/50 score in the hom-calculator, but after Factions was released, this game was in a really bad shape balance-wise. GvG had probably the worst tiebreaker in gaming history and you could grief the other team with a couple of builds. Moving on, the game went from one flotm (flavour of the month) to the next, which wasn't that bad from a gaming perspective, because one build could always be played, thus keeping the game accessible: balanced.

Then at some point balanced got killed and you had to learn new builds and new professions each month (or two depending on the rate of skill balance updates). At this point a lot of really old players quit GW1 for some time, because the scene degraded due to bad skill design and balance that got worse from time to time.

Due to lack of knowledge of the game or sheer ignorance, the game got updated mostly in favour of pve, which has always been the main selling point and the most players. Due to the power creep, which was introduced with each new campaing/addon it was very difficult to keep GvG on a high level and due to incompetence the fotm-design was getting more and more important.

I do remember someone from ANet saying that fotm keeps the game interesting, how could somebody be so wrong for both pve and pvp. Very few people are creative enough or want to dedicate that much time for a new build. Most of us want to go with the ones that are tested and working. Hence fotm had a minor positiv impact on the crowd, when many others had to relearn their profession, their builds.

I remember when Mesmer was mostly shutdown and edenial. Someone on the skill balance department thought it would be bad to make people think about energy-management and recharge, thus alienating the Mesmer more and more from CC to raw/armor ignoring damage.

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I don't care how many skills there are, you brought that on yourself, make them balanced or lock them out of high level pvp.

And no, the dual class system is the reason why gimmick builds are a problem, but they aren't the reason for bad skill balance. It's bad skill design that kills balance.

  Kuraphimaru

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 1293

12/22/11 11:40:52 AM#38

So let me get this straight, iPolygon. In your opinion it is bad that devs forced PvPers to come up with new builds and tactics instead of letting them use same old stuff for years on end?

  User Deleted
12/22/11 1:37:46 PM#39
Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

So let me get this straight, iPolygon. In your opinion it is bad that devs forced PvPers to come up with new builds and tactics instead of letting them use same old stuff for years on end?

Mentalities like that are why WOW is such a pile of garbage now.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

12/22/11 3:25:13 PM#40
Originally posted by IPolygon
*snip*

 

It may be now, I don't know since I quit the game a couple of months ago due to a dead guild and 50/50 score in the hom-calculator, but after Factions was released, this game was in a really bad shape balance-wise. GvG had probably the worst tiebreaker in gaming history and you could grief the other team with a couple of builds. Moving on, the game went from one flotm (flavour of the month) to the next, which wasn't that bad from a gaming perspective, because one build could always be played, thus keeping the game accessible: balanced.

Blah, blah, blah...

You do realize that this is the Guild Wars 2 forums. If you want to QQ about the way Guild Wars 1 was balanced then go over here and do that, because pretty much everything you brought up has nothing to do with Guild Wars 2. Especially since the 2 games don't share that many game mechanics. If you had done even an ounce of research then you would know this.

 

Guild Wars 2 is nothing like Guild Wars 1... deal with it.

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