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12/10/11 3:13:58 AM#21
Hehe, I beg to differ. You should have seen this board when Space-On-Rails got announced and first shown. It wasn't pretty.
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12/10/11 3:44:01 AM#22
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Does the blog give evidence to this? Maybe I'm missing it but I only see the statement, 'LucasArts apparently pushed for it...' I'm not suggesting LA wasn't heavily involved in decision making for NGE changes, but I'd like to see a reliable source for the claim. |
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12/10/11 3:44:36 AM#23
Originally posted by DarkPony Its to early to tell yet, but I have a feeling the current space is what we get. Unless they have a large part done there not sharing with us it would be ultimately like building another game in a game. Me I'm happy with the direction they went if I want space combat I'll go play eve. Game that try to do both fail hard (I'm looking at you STO whose 'away missions' made me want to gouge out my eyeballs with a spork). If Bioware has to constantly use all there development pools at creating new endgame content for their current game model ie raids and hopefully more storyline archs I think its a bit unrealistic to expect them to keep up with that along with creating a whole new game. And if the game is successful in its current state long enough to warrant an expac based on space when the majority of the playerbase may just want more content for the game in its current state. |
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12/10/11 3:49:50 AM#24
Originally posted by Kickaxe Actually if you click the first newslink on the blog I believe its title revenge of the fans you'll see in that article there basicly only talking to Lucas Arts reps who are basicly saying we wanted to make the game more accessible to a larger player base. While its not really proof I do find it funny LA is the one making those claims for the article and not SOE as I have yet to se LA answer the press on biowares behalf. |
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12/10/11 4:14:15 AM#25
Well, SWG was set around the time of the movies. That put a lot of restrictions on them. One big one, of course, was that Jedi were rare. TOR isn't based on an MMO, it is based on Bioware's "Knights of the Old Republic" timeline. When Bioware first talked to Lucas Arts about doing a Star Wars based RPG, they were given the choice of doing it during the Official Story line, or doing it in the far distant past. Bioware chose the past so they could be more creative with the story line. The two KOTOR games were set about 4000 years before the movies, and the history goes back to 5000 years prior to them. TOR is set in that universe, using the lore that was created for it. I'm not sure what the "the change" was. The were several major wars that either divided the Jedi, or made them nearly extinct. The Sith did have a major change, where they moved from a time of many Sith to a system of one master and one apprentice, "the rule of two". That happens near the end of the old republic era. |
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Elikal
 Spotlight Poster
Joined: 2/09/06
“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth |
12/10/11 5:01:43 AM#26
Aww, SWG. It was my first MMO, my greatest "MMO-love" ever, and the many good and wonderful years I had with the community and the game will always be the best MMO years I will remember. I am sure a lot of people will cite the famous NGE as reason, for the failure, but it was only the syptom for a deeper flaw. As many SOE developers in hindsight reported and I, as one who played the game in that time saw as well was, SWG was bleedings subs. NGE was a reaction to a failure, it just greatly accelerated what would have happend anyway. Back then WOW was on the rise and tons of gamers went to WOW and away from SWG, way before the NGE. One of the "flaws" if you might call it that, certainly was, SOE bit off more than they could chew. SWG was a giant game with a ton of gameplay spheres and bringing them together coherently was just too much. It was a game under constant rework. The so called CU to this day divides the fans. I count to those who welcomed the CU as a great step in the right direction, because pre-CU combat was just horribly clums, and you were awfully dependent on a plethora of "ifs". Essentially you could do NOTHING alone. All people I knew in my large guild welcomed the CU change, but also others had preferred a more hardcore approach. Since SWG was constantly "under construction" even way before the NGE, there were always some fundamentals changing, so the game kinda never rested. I for one was NOT surprised when the NGE came (a) because SOE had always worked with fundamentals, and (b) it was clear to every players that SWG was loosing subs FAST and substantially! Second, I think the sandbox purist idea of just tossing people into the world never was for more than a very few. I mean, I loved to have sandbox on top of things, or as bachground, but just giving people a world and let them hunt is never enough save for a handful few. So after a time, people just were out of stuff to do, and that only began to change when Kashyykk was added with the first world really with quests all over, and later Mustafar also with quests. Those worlds were VERY popular, because finally you had a constant line of quests to do. I think that just is what by and large the VAST majority of people wants and wanted back then. The "quest haters" were, as I saw it, even back then only a tiny group. Finally, the Jedi issue. I know it was much debated over the years. These days it seems only those who disliked the addition of Jedi are speaking. But the truth is, MANY people I spoke to before NGE wanted to play Jedi. It is just a logical thing when people enter a Star Wars world. Not allowing them to play Jedi was a big mistake and most of the 150+ people I knew back then saw it the same. I wrote SOE many times they needed to add it. When Jedi was finally added as unlockable, it was in the WORST possible way. It was a horribly boring grind, it had almost no story and NOTHING to do with being a Jedi at all. It was just "kill 50,000 creatures". And then Jedi could have permadeath. These two features made Jedi only playable to people with essentially no "real life" and I know a lot people who back then quit SWG out of protest against SOE for allowing casual gamers not being allowed to be Jedi.
SWG did a lot of things right: player cities, large worlds which are not just "quest themeparks" but like REAL worlds, many non combat additions like entertainers, open space, real good housing, much stuff to wear or put into your house and of course the chance to really mix all kind of skills and abilities you wanted and not being confined to one class. For me, SWG will always remain a great vision, a WORLD not just a game, and it's friendly people, the great community and wonderful years is something I never even remotely experienced since then. But games moved on, and SWG was too vast, too complex and too "not completed" to compete. I hope that at least some of it's legacy, like real open worlds, entertainers and player cities will not be entirely lost. Maybe we see it in Arch Age again. Even if SWTOR will be great in it's own way, and I think it can be, it will never be like my first MMO love, Star Wars Galaxies! Holy Trinity who art in our MMORPGs! Blessed be thy speccs, as in WOW so in all MMOs! Our daily loot grant us, and forgive us our noobness, as we forgive the noobs! And do not lead us to disconnects, But deliver us from mediocrity, For thine is the specialization and the teamwork and the endgame, Until cancellation, Amen! |
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Elikal
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 2/09/06
“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth |
12/10/11 5:05:41 AM#27
Originally posted by Whacko Sorry, but even though a lot of people believe that, with all due respect: it is bullshit. SWG was losing subs CONSIDERABLY. I was there in those days and I experienced as enitre guilds and cities died because people were moving to WOW in droves. SOE fought with the back against the wall. It wasn't greed, it was the sheer desperation, trying to survive. You can say the answer, the NGE was wrong, who is to say. A lot of people came to SWG after NGE, even tho it alienated many (but not all) old fans. But just claiming SOE/Smedley was greedy or SOE is generally inable to do MMOs right is just bollocks. Holy Trinity who art in our MMORPGs! Blessed be thy speccs, as in WOW so in all MMOs! Our daily loot grant us, and forgive us our noobness, as we forgive the noobs! And do not lead us to disconnects, But deliver us from mediocrity, For thine is the specialization and the teamwork and the endgame, Until cancellation, Amen! |
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12/10/11 6:13:16 AM#28
I liked SWG from start till even CU....no problems with that. And if they added more content like the Corvette, or even post NGE like those Hoth BG and other dungeons that I never got to do as I left shortly after the NGE I would have kept playing for years to come....... It was just the exodus of the server that made me quit. in 1 month; my guild of 60+ original -and active- players went down to a whopping 6!, my server I was on at the time, Eclipse was a barren wasteland with the occasional 4-5 players in Theed. Combined with the fact that I got amazing stories about WOW and the fact that it actually ran great with good Customer Service made me try it and stay there... Empty servers, those made me quit. |
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12/10/11 6:19:26 AM#29
I was there at SWG release and i played all the way till game was changed form head to toe. SWG was actually losing susbscribers fast and no matter how much old school sandbox lovers want us to believe..nop..SWG didn't turn out the success LA was hoping it to be. So NGE was the last ditch effort to try to get subscriptions back and try to reach broader player base. Who the hell in their right minds would destroy an already profitable game? seriously? so when people say 'hey SWG was doing great, had lots of subs and was a great success'..i usually think 'what a load of crap'. How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release? ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs. |
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12/10/11 6:22:30 AM#30
CU and then NGE imo |
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12/10/11 7:06:56 AM#31
What went wrong: 1. The game was never finished, this theme would run through the game's entire history. 2. LucasArts weren't happy that a Star Wars game was considered "niche." 3. LA/SOE chased the Holy Grail of MMORPG's, mass appeal. 4. Ignored the warning signs. When the CU was introduced the game a large proportion quit and the changes attracted few new subs and not nearly enough to bring population back to it preCU levels. Would another major game play change do the same? 5. Forced New Game Enhancements on the SWG community immediately after a major expansion! The biggest "DOH!" in MMO history. Nothing is going to infuriate a consumer more than this. It did and player cities turned to ghost town's literally over night.. 6. If SWG wasn't near it's finished build at release, NGE was barely started. This soon prompted players to think along the lines of "Hang on, I'm paying monthly subs to beta test a game? WTF?" 7. SOE broke promises it couldn't keep. Clash detection in six months? Never happened. There were numerous others. 8. SOE spent an inordinate amount of effort trying to win back players that had left and again neglected and annoyed their current player base. 9. With the vast majority of community leaders leaving, player organised events dwindled. The new breed of SWG player needed to be spoonfed and lead by the nose as this is what they were used to in other games. 10. The jacked up game engine also fell apart when more than 20 ppl gathered. Mass PvP invariably became a slideshow. 11. It took the best part of 2 years before any new themepark content was introduced as SOE rebuilt the game. As this game was now supposed to be a themepark title, it had little themepark content to boast. Mustafar and Kashyyk soon became tired. 12. Lack of cohesion. Post NGE the game went through more lead dev's than you could wave a wiggly stick at. Each had they're own spin and took SWG in different directions. Post NGE population probably peaked when the Echo Base instance was introduced. 13. After Echo Base it became obviously apparent that there would be no new content of the same scale. Echo base had failed to attract the subs anticipated. 14. Players got wind of a new Star Wars MMO. SWTOR was shortly announced.
SWTOR might be the new WoW killer, the jury is still out. SWTOR is definitely the final nail in the SWG coffin.
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12/10/11 7:20:09 AM#32
I get the impression that Lucas Arts made sure to get involved in the game's direction early on this time around, because of what happened with SWG. They know changing the game post-release was a mistake, so they've pushed for Bioware to make a certain kind of game, from the very beginning, so that they wouldn't need to make any drastic changes later.
So, if you love TOR the way it is, I don't think you have to worry. You are the audience LA was hoping for, and this time, they're launching with you in mind.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world. |
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12/10/11 7:38:31 AM#33
Kotor1 and kotor2 were fairly popular games both, Bioware and Lucarts are tapping on ready fanbase that for most parts stays true to the single player prequels.
SWG was doing fine, peaked at 300k subs when WoW released and took the world by force. After WoW made MMOs mainstream, new MMOs started pop out like mushrooms in the rain and SWG couldnt keep up with increasing competition and started losing subs. Therefore they thought they could buff up the subs by slicing themselves a piece of the wow cake...ending up with weird cut&paste work that didnt attract many new players and completely alienated the old ones. For SWTOR to suffer SWGs fate, it would need to pull the rug from below KOTOR fans feet and change the way the game is played 100% middle of the game cycle.
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12/10/11 8:21:19 AM#34
Shit if they just spent all the money and time used on the CU and the NGE on fixing the game and adding content the freakin game would have done just fine.
Things they should have worked more on is thing like the Corellian corvette missions, the Genosian cave and such.....
Stupid SOE never realized what a gem they had in their posession..
Hauken Stormchaser |
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12/10/11 8:23:19 AM#35
I don't know. I think putting the blame on LA the most is not correct. Don't get me wrong, but just look at SOE's track record since the demise of SWG. They surely haven't been the epitomy of gaming development, that's for sure.
I can understand back in that time, LA, scratching their head thinking, how in the world is SWG not the biggest and most popular game out. SW is the most popular IP in the world and the game is just blah and getting slaughtered by other games.
I can surely see a meeting or a very serious phone call between LA and SOE that must have happened. LA probably said, the game is not standing up to the SW brand and we gave you guys the chance to create a SW mmorpg.
Let's look at the facts. LA were not mmorpg builders. That's the reason they seeked out the biggest and the most repected developers at that time, SOE to build a SW MMO. Like i said, i can just see LA and SOE in a room, and LA just saying hey, we put the ball in your court, you guys are the experts at this, do whatever it takes to make things tick.
SOE, in their grand wisdom, instead of adding a better tutorial area and more content on top of the existing game, that had been out, they changed the whole game. It's already been well documented that SOE and SOE alone came up with the changes not LA.
LA wanted it to be a better and more popular game, but SOE was the driving force behind the changes. Their the ones who created the code and maintained the game. The only thing, i think LA really had input on was not how the game played or it's systems but what was in the game concerning the SW canon and such.
Any way you look at it, what went wrong could be, the era that it launched in, being more small community groups that was only into mmo's at that time.
It could have been a lack of a really detailed tutorial, that engaged players from the start and eased them into the more complex systems the game had.
It could have been the lack of any real purpose or content, that the game didn't have, compared to say everquest. Maybe people just didn't know what to do and where to go.
It also could have been just the game code that was riddled with bugs and other things that turned people off and they left for a more polished and stable game to play.
Hey, it was good run, but a run not without it's drama. If you played it at the beginning, you have the memories of what was the good old days. If you played after that up until now, and thought it was really fun, you have those memories to cherish. Remember, nothing lasts forever.
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12/10/11 8:29:52 AM#36
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus What about the game players who bitched on and on about a combat balance because they couldnt be arsed grinding teras kasi or the profession they thought was uber. :P That killed everything especially when the uproar after the combat balance came into play. It was not soes fault or lucas at all ! Weall left because we wereall hating, 1-0 to the empire ! http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png |
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12/10/11 8:32:51 AM#37
Jedi Grind killed it dead, till then it had a vibrant community, in a matter of weeks all the cantinas emptied, all you got were afk macro entertainers. A sandbox need a community hub, the grind killed that long before the NGE or the CU. |
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12/10/11 8:33:02 AM#38
short answer: 3 words - jump to lightspeed.
long answer, see initial post :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!" |
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Ubermeh
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 12/05/11
Societies collapse will be blogged and twittered along until it's conclusion. |
12/10/11 8:34:43 AM#39
Originally posted by grunt187 I am hoping with the closing of SWG that posts like these will end and those people who have spent the last 6 years of their lives in rage and sorrow will be able to move on. But I doubt it. To many people will always prefer to knee jerk that SOE is the ultimate evil. |
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AzurePrower
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/18/07
I neither give in to the hype or hate. |
12/10/11 8:46:10 AM#40
It's not just SWG. SOE screwed up a lot of games before and after it.
That pretty much sums SOE to a 't'. |
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