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News & Features Discussion  » General: The No Elves Manifesto

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195 posts found
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5424

12/08/11 5:23:29 AM#141

The problem with the manifesto is MMO's want to attract women players, and women love playing an Elf. So I don't see marketing thinking this will be a revenue winner any time soon.

I was amused the OP failed to notice this. Perhaps she thinks the girls want to play the race of ‘vertically-challenged people with excessive body hair’…hmm nope I think they want to be tall, body hair free and astheticaly pleasing. :)

Likewise removing the big (or short) ‘tough’ race is not going to sell to guys, so what do we play, boring humans?
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

12/08/11 6:31:49 AM#142
Originally posted by Scot

The problem with the manifesto is MMO's want to attract women players, and women love playing an Elf. So I don't see marketing thinking this will be a revenue winner any time soon.

I was amused the OP failed to notice this. Perhaps she thinks the girls want to play the race of ‘vertically-challenged people with excessive body hair’…hmm nope I think they want to be tall, body hair free and astheticaly pleasing. :)

Likewise removing the big (or short) ‘tough’ race is not going to sell to guys, so what do we play, boring humans?

That many ladies want to play a "princess" I can buy (I blame Barbie), but the exact same watered down race from D&D in every game? I think not.

Make the human ladies look good enough, or have nice looking tiefling and aasimar or something else not quite so stereotypical and I doubt many would complain.

I however still kinda like one type of elf, the drow. Evil spider loving dark elves with whips and bad attitude are still somewhat sterotypical but not as bad as the pointy eared hippies that we usually see in MMOs.

Elves are just one aspect of the usual MMO problem: No imagination from the devs. Most MMOs are just a reskinned version of older MMOs, usually a bit easier.

  Blasphim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/11
Posts: 350

Darkness is Death's ignorance, and the Devil's time

12/08/11 6:43:56 AM#143

Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.

They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...

It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.

In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.

I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.

  Corthagath

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/07
Posts: 292

I wont be subscribed in to MMORPG so i could hold hands

12/08/11 7:13:46 AM#144

thank you sir, finally someone who understands me !


  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/08/11 7:27:44 AM#145
Originally posted by plescure

Feckin Elves!! coming over here!! taking our jobs!! stealing our women!!

If we didn't have elves, who would occupy the tabletops in taverns?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Blasphim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/11
Posts: 350

Darkness is Death's ignorance, and the Devil's time

12/08/11 7:31:15 AM#146
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by plescure

Feckin Elves!! coming over here!! taking our jobs!! stealing our women!!

If we didn't have elves, who would occupy the tabletops in taverns?

Windlings

 

and +10 internets if you can name that pnp rpg without going to some wiki.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

12/08/11 7:31:49 AM#147
Originally posted by Blasphim

Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.

They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...

It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.

In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.

I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.

Even if the Forgotten realms? Dude, it was first Dragonlance and then FR that turned elves into the stereotypes they are today.

Almost every single MMOs world is a bad copy of FR, without the really good stuff that FR had (before the 4,0 edition that is).

  Blasphim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/11
Posts: 350

Darkness is Death's ignorance, and the Devil's time

12/08/11 7:37:12 AM#148
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Blasphim

Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.

They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...

It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.

In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.

I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.

Even if the Forgotten realms? Dude, it was first Dragonlance and then FR that turned elves into the stereotypes they are today.

Almost every single MMOs world is a bad copy of FR, without the really good stuff that FR had (before the 4,0 edition that is).

You're forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.

Edit:  I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.

Edit2: sepellgin

  nadrian3k

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 102

12/08/11 7:44:48 AM#149

I don't mind elfs as long as i get to kill them very fast so i don't see them in the area i am farming


  Gibbonici

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 474

12/08/11 8:29:46 AM#150

I hate fantasy. Of all the genres, fantasy is the one that involves the least actual imagination. That and vampire fiction. Yes, there are exceptions but they are few and far between and none of those exceptions will ever make it into the MMO world because it would be too weird for most players. And Fantasy should be too weird.


 


IMO


 


 


  nyxxis

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/11
Posts: 63

12/08/11 9:11:23 AM#151

There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.


Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.


Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside.


Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see  no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted?


May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).


All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!

  Blasphim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/11
Posts: 350

Darkness is Death's ignorance, and the Devil's time

12/08/11 9:43:23 AM#152

 


Originally posted by nyxxis There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO. Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild. Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside. Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see  no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted? May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).

 


Orcs in general haven't seen the "spotlight" in as many stories and rpgs as the elves have.  Warcraft, and Elder Scrolls are the first two games I can think of that had orc characters that even had a portion of game time spotlight (I am sure there are more). For the most part orcs have been the "go-to" bad guy of many a fantasy tale and game. Hell think about your low level pnp experiences, many of your first enemies were orc, or orc-kin. I would love to see more stories about orcs defying the stereotype (Thrall has become bland, and the only other ones I can think of come from Shadowrun novels).

I think the only reason that the "Tolkien" type of elf (I use quotes cause there were a few, less than savory elves that were not orcs), has remained prevalent, is because the frame work of said elves has been reused, over and over again. I don't need murderous blood rage filled elves whose only thoughts are mass genocide, but how about elves that aren't (once again) daisy eatin, tree huggin, leaf wearin, sparkly skinned pansies, who seem to be written more emo like than the typical 17 year old Twilight fan.

How bout some grit, some grime, some anti-heroism. Ever wonder why Batman, John McClane, Dirty Harry, Riddick and Wolverine (just to name a few), are extremely popular characters? They personify the anti-hero, they are still at the core good characters, but they are willing to go outside the norm to get the job done. They are not pretty, dainty do gooders that whimper at the scuffing of their boots. The only elf I can think of at the moment who was like that was Lucipher from Poison Elves.

 

Edit: Wow, the editor seriously mucked up that quote! 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

12/08/11 9:49:35 AM#153
Originally posted by Blasphim

Your forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.

Edit:  I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.

Yeah, never liked that setting much, but the reason I didn't mention it is because at least some people here know of DL and FR, and maybe even Ravenloft. Greyhawk, Spelljammers and Fallen sun are setting that you me, and maybe someone else have heard about.

And of course did FR took a lot from Tolkien and made it cheesier. But Greenwood and Grubb do know how to make good stories and possibilities. Few other worlds and no MMO world have really been close to that.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

12/08/11 9:54:20 AM#154
Originally posted by nyxxis

There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.

Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.

Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside.

Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see  no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted?

May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).

The problem with the elves is that they are so stereotypical usually. The drows are indeed evil, but they ain't treehugging poets that want to dance all the time. 

You could do some good non stereotypical elves as well, but the P&P game "Gemini" is the only one I can think off right now that succeded.

I neither like the gnome stereotype with small annoying things that invent dangerous crap and similar stuff every single MMO seems to have. A little originality comes far but elves in MMO is more stereotypical than a hill billy with a jug of moonshine.

  bamdorf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/09
Posts: 150

12/08/11 11:14:00 AM#155

Ok, Ok, I will try to be serious for a moment.   "The No Elves Manifesto" is pointless.    Somewhat like the Occupy movement, however deeply felt, it does not provide a positive action program, just complains about what it doesn't like.   Useless.

Personally, I don't like slasher movies.    To use a term like "overdone", etc. though does no good, because these terrible wastes of film are made because people who DO like them pay for them.    God only knows why, but that isn't the point.  

Why is the MMO field dominated by Tolkienesque creatures?    Look at the sales/subs numbers.    So what a "No Elves Manifesto" is really saying is --- all you people out there enjoying elves in MMOs are stupid, boring idiots.    Very helpful.

But there is one additional point:   there have been several posts that talk about high fantasy as unimaginative.    Excuse me?  LIke or hate Tolkein, the body of work is the single greatest epic realization of an imaginary world yet created.    It literally spans thousands of years from the dawn of time with fully detailed cultures including invented languages, so don't tell me it is not imaginative.    The copiers, yes, but let's make that distincition as clear as possible.    (Lord of the Rings is only a more recent story line --- try reading The Children of Hurin for instance.)

Elves were popular even before LIv Tyler, hard to believe though that may be.  Oops, I couldn't stay serious.   Sorry.

 

 

---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

12/08/11 11:46:13 AM#156

I like fantasy, and elves don't bother me. I have 0 interest in any mmo that isn't fantasy or at least set in medieval times or antiquity.


  EverSkelly

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/04
Posts: 338

12/08/11 12:02:01 PM#157
Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all the hate about high fantasy mmos? 


We dont even have ONE single high fantasy mmo out that is is worth it to play right now...


 


Still waiting for EQ3! :-)

unfortunately, EQNext will not be a gem of high fantasy. It will be another fucked up cartoony childish WoW clone. sorry for off-topic.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1706

12/08/11 12:19:43 PM#158

The Elder Scrolls model of elves, especially in Skyrim, are a good example of elves done in a manner that isn't sterotypical, but yet can still retain the traditional elf characteristics. The Thalmar faction in Skyrim is a good example of not stereotypical elves yet retain traditional elf like qualities. They truly are bastards through and through though.

If we want more variety in our fantasy settings, then we need to support the games that attempt to break molds. Guild Wars 1 and 2 don't feature elves (although Sylvari could be an arguable nod towards elves). However, even Sylvari would be mostly non-traditional elf like creatures. They are the youngest race in the world, and are largely ignorant of the world around them, whereas elves are traditionally are old and have vast quantities of knowledge of the world around them.

The Asheron's Call setting is also an excellent example of how to portray fantasy without elves. Really wish Turbine would go back to their roots and make a proper addition to the Asheron's Call universe.

 

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 602

12/08/11 12:52:43 PM#159

Elves are way better than any of the races that recent MMO's have been introducing. I will take an elf over a teddy bear, animal-faced creature or anime cat-lady every time.


 


  uncletoma

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 159

12/08/11 2:38:07 PM#160

As Khazad where i can sign this manifesto?


Baruk Khazad, Khazad ai-menu!


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