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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: Mirrored Classes

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287 posts found
  LordRelic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 292

11/30/11 11:34:21 AM#101
Originally posted by Codivius

Originally posted by Hellfyre420

So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??




 




If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.





 

The visual effects are different, but the mathematical consequences  are exactly the same.  So for every spell 'A' on your smuggler you'll have a spell 'B' on your imperial agent that will roll the same amount of dice, will only work at the same distance, affect  the same area size etc...

OMG there both using math oh wtf has this world come too.. so the class A punches darth vader in the nuts should have a differant reaction the class B punching him in the nuts? i dont understand?

  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

11/30/11 11:34:28 AM#102

I wasn't expecting classes that were completely original, I understand PvP and the touchy mmo community (even the people who don't PvP cry about balance..o.0) but ONE skill.. just ONE unique skill per class was too much? ONE skill that says I am a Gunslinger and you are an Imperial Sniper..

For the sake of balance, all they had to do is use Skill-Counter Skill method..

You give one side a skill, and give the other side the counter-skill so that when they clash they really pull out that Ryu vs Ken factor in rivalry.. "Oh is that a Sniper I see over there about to use his ultimate snipe skill? Hmm, I'll just have to use my Gunslingers Ultimate Covering Fire skill that reduces that skills accuracy."

But it's not gamebreaking, by no means.. I've won plenty of Ryu v Ryu and Akuma v Akuma matches (yes, even if they used the Evil Ryu costume) but in an MMO, you just kind of expect that split between classes because we are not dumb.. We know the trinity and no matter how much makeup is applied, the same stuff is just the same..

I still pre-ordered and enjoy the game very much.. Hopefully when AA's come out (you KNOW they will) they will take each class into their own area of uniqueness..

  sirphobos

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 607

11/30/11 11:34:41 AM#103
Originally posted by Ozmodan

They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  

Why even call it a MMO?

Wut?  What does a Sith Warrior having the same abilities as a Jedi Knight have to do with what you just said?

  GMan3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/27/10
Posts: 2239

11/30/11 11:35:40 AM#104
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Mirrored Classes is something we can blame WoW for since even that goliath of a company couldn't even manage to balance a Shaman and a Paladin, gave up and made them available for both factions.

I have seen very few games with unique classes in a 2 faction game, but there was one game, DAoC that offered unique classes in not only 2 factions, but 3. So it is possible to do, but those who are lazy and loathe monthly fan cries about balance will choose not to.

I really don't blame BioWare for following Blizzard's path of laziness, for I too can't stand reading 100's of threads each month about how one player keeps getting owned by someone else in PvP.

Perhaps the key is 3 factions.  Since we haven't really seen a 3 faction game since DaoC, and all of these 2 faction games have massive balance issues no matter what is tweaked, nerfed or buffed, it stands to reason that 3 factions is the answer here.  Guess we'll maybe see with that game Prime.

    Except that in a three faction game you almost always find two factions ganging up on the third faction.  This way the third faction has absolutely no chance and the game balance is ruined by the factions themselves, not the classes.  This is, in my opinion, even worse than poorly balanced classes since the only way to "fix" it is for the players to move to other servers in which the faction/class combo they want to play with is in the majority.  The only way to do this in most games is to pay for a server transfer OR start all over with a new character.  Either way is a bad solution.

"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

11/30/11 11:36:22 AM#105



Originally posted by Leucent


Originally posted by Ozmodan

They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  
Why even call it a MMO?


Lol, huh??


Yeah, made me wonder. Ah, well ..

"Haters are gonna hate not make any sense".

  LaucianNailo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/08
Posts: 37

11/30/11 11:40:20 AM#106



Originally posted by Grizzkhit



Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.











 




Agreed, and this will be the way I go whenever I play the alternate faction. New story and also changes to playstyle. Seems like best of both worlds really.




Perhaps a lazy option for a developer, but that's not in any way a 'walk- away' factor for me





 

  User Deleted
11/30/11 11:47:47 AM#107

 

One less nitpicker to clog the TOR bandwidth I guess. Nice article though, I'm sure the haters appreciate it.
 
 
I actually like the mirrored thing. I can play four Empire classes as one advanced class each and then play the four Republic classes with the non-mirrored advanced classes. Now I'll have all eight advanced classes covered. Yay!

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

11/30/11 11:49:02 AM#108

"Heck, you can still mirror classes without making them completely identical."


I submit that they did exactly that. Each class 'functions' identical to it's counterpart on the opposing faction, but the flavor is completely different. Missiles versus grenades. Lightnining and chokes versus wind and debris. Sniping versus pistol barrages.


So what if the Lightning does the same damage and someone throwing a big rock at you? So what if the Inquisitor has a talent to increase the lightning damage and the Sage has a similar talent for his big rock?


"For example, if you’ve played a Smuggler, you’ve played an Imperial Agent, and if you’ve played a Bounty Hunter, you’ve played a Trooper. "


Unless you pick up the opposite AC for the IA and Trooper, which would play completely different from the Smuggler/BH you already had. I don't see most people going through Smuggler twice on both ACs and then switching to IA.


  YouNube

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/11
Posts: 25

11/30/11 11:53:23 AM#109

So 4 mirror classes, each of them has 2 advanced classes. That makes 8 in total. Whats the big deal again ? Wow started with 9, so whats the big problem, please do explain. 

Besides, that really gives BioWare alot of room for expansions and etc.

  Arcona

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1192

11/30/11 12:01:10 PM#110
Originally posted by MikeB

SWTOR’s class mirrors are actually not just extremely similar, but identical. For example, if you’ve played a Smuggler, you’ve played an Imperial Agent, and if you’ve played a Bounty Hunter, you’ve played a Trooper. Sure, they use different looking gear, their animations are flavored and styled to be class appropriate, but otherwise every skill and every talent is completely identical.

Not true at all. Bounty Hunter had a flamethrower. Trooper got lightning instead.

Bounty hunter's first crew member got heal. Trooper's first crew member dont.

Bounty hunter dual wields pistols.

Trooper got one huge assault cannon.

These are just some of the differences, they are not completely identical...... wtf

 

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7266

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/30/11 12:11:57 PM#111
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by elocke

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

 

Balance in general can be satiated by mirrored classes.  Most apparent in PvP,  but PvE is also important, and if you have the same classes on each side, theres no talk about how one side finishes quests easier due to a particular classes ability set.

 

Balanced classes help, simply due to the way issues were previously with FOTM builds.  Everyone flocks to whats powerful,  then it gets "balanced"  then they go somewhere else,  and the cycle continues.  If you look down the line,  or hell, if you play SWTOR,  what did you see?  Well, you didn't see a single class dominate PvP,  nor did you see a single class dominate the PvE areas.  (outside of starter planets of course).   You saw diversity.  In my time in Beta... those many months,  I saw every build under the sun for every class,  even builds you wouldn't expect,  and even though the diversity wasn't there in terms of my consular having a completely different spec as someone elses inquisitor,  the choices you make for your class and the way you play them is much more important.

So IS SWTOR balanced then?  If not, then mirroring doesn't really work for the balance issue and personally, I'd rather have more class choices than have to sit on the balance fence all day.  If it DOES work, will it get schewed if they make more classes in the future?

It has team balance, and yes it is mostly balanced.  Are there some imbalances?  Yes,  but the imbalances are mirrored too, whereas in other games without mirrored classes,  the imbalances aren't mirrored and you have one specific class, or multiple classes with strong skill sets.

 

The argument I heard the least in PvP was that the opposing team had a particular class that was overpowered.. and truly,  if you look at everyones complaints on SWTOR,  class balance isn't one of them.    When they add more classes, it won't change the balance,  as they'll mirror those too.  In that sense, if one class is overpowered, at least the other side will have the same class set.

 

Would I like diverse classes?  To a degree.... one thing SWTOR did right is class balance,  and not just for PvP,  they made PvE balanced too.  One major problem I always hated in balancing classes was that you would also have abilities that would work one way in PvE, but they would be useless in PvP.  In SWTOR they made it so abilities work the same throughout PvP and PvE (for the most part), so similar strategies can be used.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7266

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/30/11 12:14:28 PM#112
Originally posted by Arcona
Originally posted by MikeB

SWTOR’s class mirrors are actually not just extremely similar, but identical. For example, if you’ve played a Smuggler, you’ve played an Imperial Agent, and if you’ve played a Bounty Hunter, you’ve played a Trooper. Sure, they use different looking gear, their animations are flavored and styled to be class appropriate, but otherwise every skill and every talent is completely identical.

Not true at all. Bounty Hunter had a flamethrower. Trooper got lightning instead.

Bounty hunter's first crew member got heal. Trooper's first crew member dont.

Bounty hunter dual wields pistols.

Trooper got one huge assault cannon.

These are just some of the differences, they are not completely identical...... wtf

 

These are essentially visual differences.  Consulars use the (invisible) force to pick up,  move, or attack,  while the inquisitor uses force lightning,  but at the end of the day they each have abilities with a 1 for 1 match for the most part.  Companions are another story, you are right,  but you can't base class balance on companions,  as at the end of the day everyone will get the same kind of companions eventually, and you can't use companions in ever facet of the game.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

11/30/11 12:29:56 PM#113

But ya know, in restro-spect I realize that in each of the mirrors they give you 3 trees (essentially 3 different "classes" within the class), so it does kinda expand on itself if people were to do as I was planing and just go balls out in one whole column of a tree. That would basically make you pretty different from any other mirror who specced fully into another column.. So even though you are mirrors, you are actually different at your cores and sometimes even playstyle (Scoundrel main heals anyone?)

Soo.. On that note, I eat my words..

  Vosper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/05
Posts: 57

11/30/11 12:32:21 PM#114

I'm going to say I don't mind, not in this case.


I intend to have both a Jedi Consular and Sith Inquisitor, but going with different advanced classes.  This will let me play a (basic) class I really enjoy, along with having the chance for both advanced classes all without having to play thru the same storyline twice, such as if I were to go Consular for both advanced classes, for example.


YMMV, of course, but mirroring the classes is far from a deal-breaker for me, and if it makes things easier on the devs, great.


I'd rather they work on adding content and such later on than the nit-picky issues of balancing eight, more diverse classes.


  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

11/30/11 12:43:32 PM#115

IMO,


Unless you are designing an e-sport style game then chasing after "balance" is a fruitless and futile endevour. MMO designers should pretty much forget about "balance" (in the way most  players define it) and just concentrate on making a fun and interesting game.


Honestly, even if classes are absolutely identical on each side....you'll still have players kvetching about "balance"....it's what they do.


The only thing you really need to do is make sure that no one class dominates in EVERY single situation/area of the game.


That's the REAL core problem that most MMO's have..... they have so little variety in the types of challenges and combat situations that players encounter that it becomes difficult to create differentiation/specialization because virtualy every single encounter is the same, every single combat situation is the same.....and thus having a particular class that is better at doing X then other classes becomes a no go...because X is 95% of everything that happens in the game.


Look at real world history, for example. At one point in time the armored knight on horseback was a true force to be reckoned with.... until you make that knight fight in the middle of a marsh, or a narrow mountain pass or a burning desert or charge up a steep sodden slope against an enemy that had set stakes out in front of thier positions.


The key is not have 95% of your content devolve endlessly refighting the same battle under the same conditions. Make a wide variety of conditions, terrain, situations that have a real effect on the players abilities. That way different classes (character types) can come to the fore under different conditions/situations. Let players figure out how to play to thier sides strengths and compensate for thier weaknesses. That's what PvP combat should be about in an MMO...... What most MMO's impliment as PvP is more like a glorified WWF match with better costumes.


  Biggus99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/30/11
Posts: 964

11/30/11 12:50:37 PM#116
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by timtrack

Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.





 

DAoC certainly was not mirrored.


 


Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.

THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo.  I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs.  Keep the story but give us more variety.  Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more.  Maybe in a future expack?  Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?

You don't have 4.  You have 8.  Advanced Classes are full classes.  And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side.  The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors.  In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.

And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2?  They'll have what, 8 classes as well?  But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.

  Talin

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 825

You only live once... make it count!

11/30/11 12:54:20 PM#117

Mirror classes = balance (especially for PVP). Although how anyone can consider the current "telekinesis" abilities for Consulars to be as cool as Inquisitor force lightning is beyond me (yes, I'll be playing as a Consular).

However, each class has its OWN storyline. This immediately changes the experience, at least as it pertains to NPC interaction and quests. How that helps at the proverbial end-game though, I don't know.

  frosa3

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 3

11/30/11 12:54:28 PM#118

Doesn't bother me at all.


As someone said: pick, for instance, RIFT. Same classes to both sides, not difference whatshoever.


Also, the developers have many times stated that the "real" classes in this game are the AC's. My plan is to pick up differing AC's when I go to the other faction to check out the storyline.


  jerlot65

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/08
Posts: 802

11/30/11 12:59:23 PM#119
Originally posted by Paragus1

I agree with you.   It completely hurts the prospect of giving each side a distinctive feel and feels like they opted to cut corners either out of laziness or for the sake of balancing.   Just another in a long line of examples of how they are trying to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Well its mirrored for a reason.....balance.  And it works.  You dont have mirrored classes for each side the balancing becomes even harder.

 

But the "feel" of the class is different.  Sure BH and Troops have the same abilities.  But BH's do it with a pistol and missles.  Troops do it with a BFG.  Also the "feel" is drastically differnt do to BW's implementation of story.  I have no problem rolling all 8 classes in the game just because the story and "feel" of each class is different.

  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3038

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

11/30/11 1:01:08 PM#120

Originally posted by MikeB




Originally posted by Grizzkhit




Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.



These are identical to their mirror's counterparts as well. Vanguard (Trooper) == Powertech (Bounty Hunter).



What I don't get is that the author tells us that mirroring is BAD BAD BAD. And look at what MMO has done it for the last 7 years now..? Right WoW has been mirroring classes 100% and no one ever complained about that..?


Other point of interest: the classes the author named as mirrors ARE NOT their mirros. The mirror of Bounty Hunter is Smuggler, and not the Trooper as the author states...


Also, as Grizzkhit  said gameplay is different. Mirrored classes have a whole set of DIFFERENT skills. In basic they might seem the same, but the differences in skills makes them completely different in game-play.


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