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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: Mirrored Classes

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287 posts found
  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4114

11/30/11 11:22:44 AM#61
Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by timtrack

Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.





 

DAoC certainly was not mirrored.


 


Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.

THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo.  I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs.  Keep the story but give us more variety.  Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more.  Maybe in a future expack?  Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?

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  Squiggie

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 107

11/30/11 11:22:45 AM#62

All of you bashing the mirrored classes either don't play PvP or at least didn't play PvP in Warhammer.  The approach of similar-but-different classes led to a balance nightmare.  It was ridiculously unbalanced and subs left in droves once the imbalances were used to their fullest.  You had a WP and a BW wiping out entire raid groups...two people wiping out dozens...

Any game that wants PvP to be a significant part of the experience and not just a side-game for fluff needs to have mirrored classes.  What seems like a minor difference in skills at face value turns into a potential game-breaker when the min-max parsers get ahold of it.

I'd love to see more variety, but as a player who likes to participate in PvP, it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make.

  musicmann

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/05
Posts: 1123

11/30/11 11:24:35 AM#63
Originally posted by Robsolf
Originally posted by Khaine007

I'd rather the classes weren't mirrored completely as far as skills go, but I imagine most people will be playing the classes they choose more for the flavor of the armor, weapons and story.  So while one play experience in one class may be "similar" to it's mirror, it really won't be that similar at all.  Because once again, you'll have different weapons, armor graphics, and entirely different stories.


Yes, I wish there were some differences, and yes, it's completely due to developer laziness, but you just gotta keep on keeping on.

This.

By standard MMO terms, the skill "mirroring" is undeniable. 

But to say that playing the Soldier experience is just like the Bounty Hunter experience is... just intellectually dishonest.

Different weapons

Different companions

Different stories

I've played as both the Soldier and BH.  They are entirely different.  As a soldier, you are pretty much married and dedicated to the Republic.  As a Bounty Hunter, it's all about self-interest.

To anyone that just dismisses the two as identical, I can't help but wonder why you play an RPG in the first place.


You just brought up a good point. A lot of people, in their mind are playing a mmo, not a mmorpg. They forgot or really don't know what the RPG means. All they care about, and i blame WOW for this , is to power level to the top, and worry about end game. They don't care that the story, companions, ship, weapons, clothing/armor are all different. You know the RPG stuff that makes a mmorpg. No, they care about, trying to be the leet pvper who ganks lowbies and is the king of the hill for everything pvp in the game.

The only thing that WOW has accomplished with bringing all the millions and millions of people to the mmorpg world, is to bring in a whole generation of gamers that think since they love FPS and the like, every game that has pvp including mmo's should play just like that.

I fully commend Bioware for bringing back the RPG in the mmo genre. Yes, the game may not be this full blown sandbox that so many people here crave, but from my view, after playing two beta weekends, i have never felt more attached to a character, and this goes for my SWG pre-cu jedi that took 6 months to obtain.

  Leucent

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 2452

11/30/11 11:27:03 AM#64

I think back at my DAOC days. I still think is the best game ever created. The balance issues were crazy, still fun but ridiculous. I remember running with healer and I was a warrior. We could take out full groups with ease. Then vn boards would light up, healers are OP insta mez crap. Thats all it was a quick on the button healer and my warrior who didn t even hit super hard, he was full shield specced, mez go after 1 dead, then the next etc. Alot of the times 1 maybe 2 would break mez and I with my high shiled spec sat and protected the healer. She barely got hit. We literally would dance and wave etc while we killed the rest.

I was insane how easy it was. Even though it was fun the balance sucked and ultimately made poeple mad.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7284

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/30/11 11:29:19 AM#65
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by timtrack

Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.





 

DAoC certainly was not mirrored.


 


Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.

THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo.  I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs.  Keep the story but give us more variety.  Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more.  Maybe in a future expack?  Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?

 

You have 8 classes total.  4 Base classes.  Other minor variations depending on build and skill choice.

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  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4114

11/30/11 11:30:36 AM#66

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

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  Rhoklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 3145

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11/30/11 11:30:47 AM#67

Mirrored Classes is something we can blame WoW for since even that goliath of a company couldn't even manage to balance a Shaman and a Paladin, gave up and made them available for both factions.

I have seen very few games with unique classes in a 2 faction game, but there was one game, DAoC that offered unique classes in not only 2 factions, but 3. So it is possible to do, but those who are lazy and loathe monthly fan cries about balance will choose not to.

I really don't blame BioWare for following Blizzard's path of laziness, for I too can't stand reading 100's of threads each month about how one player keeps getting owned by someone else in PvP.

  Effin_Rabbit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 726

This Rabbit stinks!

11/30/11 11:32:56 AM#68

I dont know why people are freaking out other thn they are mad at themselves for not understanding what the dev teams said on multiplr occasions, that SWTOR was going to be a traditional mmo with voice overs and nothing more. I had a feeling there was going to be nothing cutting-edge/innovative about the game aside from the voice acting which takes up like 10 gigs or more and wasnt going to be like bioware single player/offline games.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4114

11/30/11 11:34:32 AM#69
Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Mirrored Classes is something we can blame WoW for since even that goliath of a company couldn't even manage to balance a Shaman and a Paladin, gave up and made them available for both factions.

I have seen very few games with unique classes in a 2 faction game, but there was one game, DAoC that offered unique classes in not only 2 factions, but 3. So it is possible to do, but those who are lazy and loathe monthly fan cries about balance will choose not to.

I really don't blame BioWare for following Blizzard's path of laziness, for I too can't stand reading 100's of threads each month about how one player keeps getting owned by someone else in PvP.

Perhaps the key is 3 factions.  Since we haven't really seen a 3 faction game since DaoC, and all of these 2 faction games have massive balance issues no matter what is tweaked, nerfed or buffed, it stands to reason that 3 factions is the answer here.  Guess we'll maybe see with that game Prime.

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  dmordred

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/05
Posts: 13

11/30/11 11:35:17 AM#70

My problem with mirroring is simple: redemption and temptation...

No MMo I've played but the old SWG allowed you to change sides as part of your personal history... a real shame... 

And implying the classes are REALLY mirrored, there's no reason why they couldn't be redeemed or tempted to change sides.

-A jedi should be able to turn into a sith and a sith could be redemned into a jedi... being a Stih Warrior with light side points is... counter-productive to say the least.

if the classes are mirrored, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to turn, cause they won't be more powerful, or alter the balance...

Now, with the other "civilian" classes, bounty hunter coulda been enlisted, and a imperial agent could start using his contacts to change sides... 

  xKingdomx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/10
Posts: 1550

11/30/11 11:39:12 AM#71

Thats Holy trinity game balance for you


 


Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them


Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one


DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.


 


A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.


How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  Letyson

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 13

11/30/11 11:39:12 AM#72

Ain't this article just like comparing Coca Cola with Pepsi?


I played a Jedi Consular and a Sith Inquisitor, sure I could see the spells were the same just different animations and sound, but the experience between those 2 classes were still very very different. I would love to point out the differences but that would involve me going into spoilers, which I won't.


  Dwarik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/04/08
Posts: 12

11/30/11 11:39:50 AM#73

I don't think mirrored classes are bad at all. if you look at it from the other side you have an MMO with 8 (advanced) classes and on top of that each faction gets their own unique story and graphics for those classes. 

sounds at least as good as most other MMOs. just don't think of them as different classes  but as unique flavors of the same class. ballancing is already a proble peole will complain about from now to ethernity so i see no problem. remember those mmos that make the difference between the different dps/healer/tank classes so small it doesn't even matter anymore if you are a plate wearing healer or cloth wearing healer. if this is the worst complaint about swtor it will be a huge success.

  McGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/05
Posts: 1035

"Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" -Master Yoda

11/30/11 11:41:20 AM#74
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Those of you who are against mirriored classes, are the minority, plain and simple.  Mirrored classes,e specailly from the pvp side is a good thing, it means people can choose to play waht they want to play.


So every class is unique, i guess i can only play one faction,  i hope my friends are playing that faction, i hope my guild wants to play that faction.


I dont get all this sudden hate on mirriored classes, since when is it a bad thing? Name one mmo, just one, that doesnt have mirrored classes.

The OP just wrote an article explaining it. But I guess you skipped reading it just to troll the thread. And by the way, it would be easier to list an mmo does use mirrored classes. Because that list would be a lot shorter. There are other mmo's out there other than WoW in case you didn't know.

  musicmann

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/05
Posts: 1123

11/30/11 11:42:50 AM#75
Originally posted by elocke

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

 

I can almost promise you that when GW2 comes out you will have the same bitching and moaning from pve and pvper's and balance, nerf issue's. Keep putting your almighty GW2 that high on a pedistal and you are sure to be highly disappointed once you get to play the actual game.

Every post that you write just keeps showing your disdain for TOR and your zealous fanboyism for GW2.

  McGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/05
Posts: 1035

"Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" -Master Yoda

11/30/11 11:43:15 AM#76
Originally posted by xKingdomx

Thats Holy trinity game balance for you


 


Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them


Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one


DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.


 


A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.

The holy trinity isn't critical in making an mmo. It is a weak mechanic devised to make players dependant on others. GW2 thankfully is getting rid of the trinity. I think it's time other devs though outside of the box as well.

  Banegrivm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 205

11/30/11 11:45:14 AM#77

The reviewer must be playing a different game. I played both a trooper and a bounty hunter and they were definitely not the same. Similar in some respects, but not the same. Again, the same thing with the smuggler and the imperial agent. Not the same. I had the same experience with the consular and the inquisitor. Definitely NOT the same. 


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Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
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  Leucent

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 2452

11/30/11 11:45:36 AM#78
Originally posted by Czanrei
Originally posted by xKingdomx

Thats Holy trinity game balance for you


 


Make tank class compulsory? Well both side will need at least one of them


Make healer class compulsory? Well both side is gonna have at least one


DPS? who cares about them, theres 50 running on the street right now.


 


A lot of problems will a lot of MMORPG comes down to the basic fundamentals of how current MMORPG are built upon.

The holy trinity isn't critical in making an mmo. It is a weak mechanic devised to make players dependant on others. GW2 thankfully is getting rid of the trinity. I think it's time other devs though outside of the box as well.

Yes god forbid in an MMO you need to depend on other players.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7284

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/30/11 11:48:57 AM#79
Originally posted by elocke

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

 

Balance in general can be satiated by mirrored classes.  Most apparent in PvP,  but PvE is also important, and if you have the same classes on each side, theres no talk about how one side finishes quests easier due to a particular classes ability set.

 

Balanced classes help, simply due to the way issues were previously with FOTM builds.  Everyone flocks to whats powerful,  then it gets "balanced"  then they go somewhere else,  and the cycle continues.  If you look down the line,  or hell, if you play SWTOR,  what did you see?  Well, you didn't see a single class dominate PvP,  nor did you see a single class dominate the PvE areas.  (outside of starter planets of course).   You saw diversity.  In my time in Beta... those many months,  I saw every build under the sun for every class,  even builds you wouldn't expect,  and even though the diversity wasn't there in terms of my consular having a completely different spec as someone elses inquisitor,  the choices you make for your class and the way you play them is much more important.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2103

11/30/11 11:50:25 AM#80

Seems to me it's just a simple way of balancing the game, the classes still feel enough different because of the effects and sounds and looks, and 8 classes is quite good number for a launch imo. Actually I can see Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior (both of the AC's) not feeling different at all, but rest of the classes more or less.

 

Example: I'd pick IA over smuggler because they use rifles, but I dont really care if the smuggler counterpart has the same practical abilities as me. Also, I noticed on warzone that I didnt know what abilites the bounty hunters were actually using outside the most basic or obvious ones, even I played trooper my self. Also inquisitor stun is very visual and noisy, but the consular stun is very subtle.

 

I'm not sure why perfect class balance between factions in a themepark would be a bad thing, it eliminates the endless whine how some mirror class is more powerful than the other faction counterpart, it would be never ending if they were not balanced. It's not like we have mage/druid/rogue etc on both sides that are not only mirrored but also looks, feels and sounds exactly the same, like in WoW, Rift, Aion, they are different but completely balanced.

 

I do love unique classes my self, and dont care that much of balance, but the game should have been built a whole lot differently from the beginning, like give 3 factions and unique classes to each of them, then it's not so bad if they are OP or not. But it's useless discussion because TOR is not that game, it's a themepark where a lot of the content per faction will suffer the consequences of unique class design per side, and the forums are overflooding with "my counterpart is OP BUFF BUFF NERF NERF" please no.

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