I'm utter confused as to why people  want it in a virtual world. I ride a CBR600RR and have a spare CBR125R to play with. I decided to practice stunting on the CBR125R earlier in the summer with a few friends. The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you, but here's the most important part: PENALTY OF FAILURE.

You want real penalty? Consider this: A friend of mine shattered his wrist doing a failed stoppie, my bike flipped onto me when I overestimated how much brake power I needed to do a stoppie. In the end, I'm physically hurt, and my partner, the bike, needed mass repairs. In the end, I learned how to control my bike further but there was physical pain, and mental pain involved.

Reread that and explain to me why you want this in an MMO? You can do the above with cars, sports, paintball, and just about everything in real life. Do you lack the ability to? Unless you're handicapped, which then I'd understand, just why do you want to "challenge" yourself with time sinks and other. How about in WoW for every time you get hit by a fireball you burn yourself, every time you get stabbed you smack yourself with a stick, there you go, penalities.

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

People want harsher penalties or higher difficulties, because without the threat of failure there is no achievement in success. If success comes too easily and you have nothing to fear if you fail, every success will feel shallow. Certainly, it's "a game" and one can argue that your achievements aren't *real* anyway, and there's no denying that, but within the virtual space you've still managed to achieve that which your peers cannot, and that ensures a feeling of elation.

Originally posted by Enerzeal

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

Never experienced a "rush" even back when I was younger when it came to video games; at least the adrenaline junkie in me that I've developed didn't. But hey, people crave difficulty, they can try mountain biking through their nearest trial and attempt to maintain a constant speed....just be sure to wear a SECURE helmet, i didn't...and fractured mah skull!

Originally posted by Enerzeal

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

thankfully you only speaking for yourself.

why not self inflict the DP on your self when you fail?

I dont understand why you Pro-HDP dont do this in games without HDP

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Enerzeal

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

thankfully you only speaking for yourself.

 

why not self inflict the DP on your self when you fail?

I dont understand why you Pro-HDP dont do this in games without HDP

I also wrote this post in a semi sarcastic tone. I understand that there are rdiers and drivers out there who basically drive and ride for pleasure: not to do things that could result in broken limbs or death. Most importantly: I respect these people. In the MMO community, the whole difficulty/death penality thing is seen by a group of elists as "WE WANT HARDCORE" and preceieve everyone else is carebears....kinda shitty attitude imo.

Originally posted by Lienhart

...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...

 

I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the  "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.

I thought FFXI got it right with the DP xp loss, though I know many hated it, but I think it keeps people on their toes and makes them think about what they had to do.  People wil disagree, I know that, but I still think it was the better way to go.

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Lienhart

...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...

 

I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the  "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.

Okay, go this

http://devour.com/video/motorcycle-drifting/

Come back and tel me MMOs can be more difficult. And fyi, i cannot do half the shit he is doing in that video; partially because I am scared, but mainly because I have NO WHERE NEAR his amount of control.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Enerzeal

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

thankfully you only speaking for yourself.

 

why not self inflict the DP on your self when you fail?

I dont understand why you Pro-HDP dont do this in games without HDP

Again the worst suggestion that casual gamers love to throw out there. "Hey guys I died in dead mines so I need to drop my armor and wait 10 minutes for my 'self inpossed death penalty to wear off'". It  causes others to enjoy a good laugh at you. The main problem however is that it's like cutting your arm off then playing a few sets of tennis against a two armed opponent.

We aren't for disadvantages against everyone else. We want a world where the stakes are higher for everyone involved. I want the guy who has just run me down to be just as worried of dying as I am because it means a trip to the bank to stock up on potions and another throw away set of armor.

Originally posted by Lienhart

I'm utter confused as to why people  want it in a virtual world. I ride a CBR600RR and have a spare CBR125R to play with. I decided to practice stunting on the CBR125R earlier in the summer with a few friends. The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you, but here's the most important part: PENALTY OF FAILURE.

You want real penalty? Consider this: A friend of mine shattered his wrist doing a failed stoppie, my bike flipped onto me when I overestimated how much brake power I needed to do a stoppie. In the end, I'm physically hurt, and my partner, the bike, needed mass repairs. In the end, I learned how to control my bike further but there was physical pain, and mental pain involved.

Reread that and explain to me why you want this in an MMO? You can do the above with cars, sports, paintball, and just about everything in real life. Do you lack the ability to? Unless you're handicapped, which then I'd understand, just why do you want to "challenge" yourself with time sinks and other. How about in WoW for every time you get hit by a fireball you burn yourself, every time you get stabbed you smack yourself with a stick, there you go, penalities.

You just answered your own question in my opinion.  People want difficulty so they can learn and get better.  Without difficult and all this hand holding, people don't learn and continue to play at a very sub-par level, and that is what frustrates people who actually want to have "skill" involved when playing a game.

I think that the people who want more penalties are striving for the whole gamining community to grow as a whole and better their playing ability.

You will learn to be more careful around mobs, you will learn to bank often, you will learn that you can't just be an ashole to every person you see, because in the future they may just not care about you and let you suffer through whatever penalty there is.

Penalties offer incentive to play better.  It pulls at the emotional strings more, happyness, anger, sadness.

Though I understand people play games to "avoid" having to have any real emotion, but in my opinion this is why people push for harder penalties... risk/reward, a feeling of accomplishment, fear of death, happyness that you finally overcame whatever you could not overcome before.

So... with harsher penalties.. people will learn through mental pain, (lack the physical, it is a game), because without that, they will just be coddled gamers who expect everything to be handed to them without any risk involved, thus further ruining the mmorpg genre.. in my opinion.

For me it adds a sense of danger. I loved Asherons Call's way of doing it. 5% vitea (stat reduction) and depending on level depended on how many items you dropped. It wasnt so punishing that dieing would completely hose you over (unless you lost your armor which happened ALOT in the early years).

It also makes you weigh risk vs. reward. In today's MMO's if I see a big badass mob I'm going to attack it with no real worry about dieing. Just to see what I can do. With a death penalty it makes me think "is this worth what I'll lose when I die". I remember in AC all the days of "Hey can you help me with a corpse recovery?.....Sure where is it?.........about 100ft away from the obsidian plains portal....Oh great."

Thoes where the good days. And frankly I met some verry good people whom I still game with today because of thoes corpse recovery runs.

Why I like death penalty: because both I and my enemy have something to lose. He wins, I lose; I win, he loses; I want him to feel his loss; he wants me to feel my loss.

Certainly, that's not for everyone, and I don't want the majority of games have harsh death penalties (because the majority of people don't like them). But I want a fair representation of AAA tittles to have that penalty, simply so that I had something to play. Is it too much to ask for, say, 20% of games to have actual losses in pvp, so that those of us who enjoy upped stakes could feel the rush of trying to survive - and the rush of hitting the opponent where he feels it, even a little bit?

i know people ignored them completly when they said it but im with bioware. All harsher death penalties do to most people is make them avoid taken a risk. 

I certainly wouldnt of tried to take on hogger in wow at leavel 14 by myself if i was gonna lose all my gear or be dead permanantly.

There are alot of stuff i tried to see if i could at my level do it that id of never given a thought to trying with harsher penalties.

No one wants to loose all that nice gear they worked a month or more to get just cause they get pkd and the person loots all that nice gear off them either.

Bioware is right when that happens 90 pct of your playerbase never leaves town in that nice new gear they found cause they dont wanna lose it.

When u consider how hard most people work to get the gear they get having it so some greifer or other can loot your body when u die and take it all away is a bad design decision

Yea casuals are ruining games yada yada yada. Casuals are the reason companies like bioware stuck there toe into the mmo waters.

Originally posted by Lienhart

Originally posted by InFaVilla

Originally posted by Lienhart

...The difficulty involved with popping a wheelie, maintaining a stoppie, doing back flips off the bike while it's running, and other incredibly eye pleasing tricks are FAR BEYOND what the virtual environment can or will ever provide you...

 

I strongly disagree. For instance, a virtual environment can provide you with the problem of proving the  "Riemann Hypothesis". That task is far more difficult than the one you presented.

Okay, go this

http://devour.com/video/motorcycle-drifting/

Come back and tel me MMOs can be more difficult. And fyi, i cannot do half the shit he is doing in that video; partially because I am scared, but mainly because I have NO WHERE NEAR his amount of control.

Proving the  Riemann Hypothesis is so difficult that an institute is awarding one million dollars to the first person who successfully proves it. Noone has been able to prove it yet. 

While it would not make any sense to include such a problem in a mmo, it is indeed technically possible to include it. 

There should be a reason why (joe-schmoe) has the best gear in the game.  Because he took the biggest risks and reaped the biggest rewards.

If you don't want to take the risks, then you shouldn't be rewarded with the best items.

This is my main reasoning behind why I dislike the "hand holding" these new AAA titles do.  Everyone gets everything, no one gets "honored/seen" for their hard work and skill.

Granted, I suppose it could be hard to "raid" the "hardest" bosses in WoW, but when there are tutorials on youtube explaining every step you need to do, where to stand, it shouldn't be THAT hard to get the best gear.

People who have the skill, risk their "gear/lives" whatever the penalty is, should be rewarded with the best items.  And those who lack the skill or do not want to "risk it" should not be rewarded the items.

Making you pay gold to repair your items after you die is one of the lamest death penalties ever.  Especially since gold (currency) is one of the easiest things to obtain in an MMO.  Heck you can even buy it with real money.

Originally posted by Lienhart

Never experienced a "rush" even back when I was younger when it came to video games; at least the adrenaline junkie in me that I've developed didn't. But hey, people crave difficulty, they can try mountain biking through their nearest trial and attempt to maintain a constant speed....just be sure to wear a SECURE helmet, i didn't...and fractured mah skull!

I really wish you would stop with the eal world comparisons. You are never going to get that feeling replicated from a game. Seriously, stop.

People want a harder  experience because MMO players have been lazy. We are having our hands-held. Do I want to go all the way back to UO/ Early EQ where people can loot my corpse or I have to run back to my body naked?  Kind of. There was excitement (NOT THE SAME AS EXPERIENCED IN REAL LIFE), but excitement in trying to get through dangerou places. You had to watch your step, if you died you could lose levels.

The pentaly doesn't have to be that bad, but fear death. Don't let people keep throwing themselves at an encounter brainlessly with the hope that they will luck out and beat it.  If you are going to explore a palce that is above your level, be concerned. Watch for enemies you can't handle. Don't just run through the area

MMO's have become very easy compared to their early counterparts. In EQ you had to sit out of combat to regain mana. That won't fly anymore because gamers have no patience.  Cause people to pause and not just throw themselves into the fray. 

Go ahead hurt yourself in realife your that man:P

Just kidding dont do things i won't do ok :)

Ill stick to games i dont need macho behavior in real life to proof im a man.

But when i play a game i want some serieus challenges thats what i like, i let the brute force stunts to the likes of you and read in the news paper some daredevil end up in hospital becouse he was try to be tough but under estimate the stunt he try to pull off hehe.

Do your thing and let me play games with hardcore challenge at least i know i won't end up in hospital or have tell my boss i was stupid enough to hurt myself in some silly macho stunt:P

You do understand that not everyone has the physical tools required to do the things you mention correct? And oddly enough, in your attempt at sarcasm, you yourself come off as somewhat elitist. And how in the end does it effect you either way? To each his own. Harcore, Carebear, whatever makes the gamer happy in the end is all that matters. Do I want my toon wiped each time I die? No. Do I want to be bored to tears playing an MMO any 6 year old can play to end game in 2 months? No.

And trust me, I understand risk/reward. I get the rush thing. I do. But how one goes about getting it matters not to me. I spent 20 years in Army Special Ops, and have paid for it. My body is wrecked, my soul is darker, and my mind is tired. I have seen far to much, done far to much. Now I sit at my PC, with bits of metal in my spine that can't be removed, just trying to have some fun. So, your go ride or do something real instead of getting your rush in a game idea holds no water for me, and plenty of people like me. Not everyone is an athlete. Not everyone can do the things you do, or I have done. For many different reasons. That doesn't mean some people don't want to push themselves, in whatever way they can. Challenge is, challenge. Regardless of where we find it. And not all of us want our hands held in a game to the point where there is none. 

Sorry for the rant, but the if you want real challenge hit yourself or do something in the real world doesn't and can't apply to everyone. Such as myself. The body is ruined. I do my best to simply live through the discomfort, and find fun and challenge where I still can. 

Risk vs reward is a naturally sought after aspect in all human endeavours. Most people feel that MMOs are fairly easy because they've "seen" most of what the genre has to offer.

The next step is to make the content "smarter" or "harder" or at least act as a real test.

When things are too easy we get bored generally.

I mean there are those who like to do easy things over and over for vanity reasons. That's probably more common than it needs to be now a days.