Older games had far more skills and far less restrictions. Far more combinations.

It required far more thought, trial and error, and curiousity. and as some have said lead to far more tickets filed.

It didnt take more game skill, it required more brain power. You had knowlege of far more variables to draw from. That's simply a fact. You had to learn far more theory, which required far more thought for perfection.

But the people in charge said it best. It required far too much reading. Kill, get treasure, repeat. That should explain it perfectly. Deny it all you want but that is reality.

Timesinks are still timesinks, but human interaction is always more difficult than kill, get treasure repeat.

It's the same in music. Classical vs autotune. One requires Understanding  theory and perfecting performance. One has 15 year old superstars. Sure one makes more money, but 5 years later no one remembers. Classical will last forever, over time it has the much larger audience. Thats classic anything in entertainment.

The originals did it best, and made more over time. IF games updated like music did from record to cd to digital, UO would be the most profitable mmo over 50 years, while newer ones would make a ton then are forgoten about.

Zaxtor,  I've been playing FPSes and MMOs for a long time, and I've done my time in WOW, everquest and many other MMOs. But the fact that just be memory, that from city of heroes, WoW, and EQ, that by holding two keys and the right mouse button, being able to perfectly circle strafe and still press numbers to trigger powers -You've got it backwards, AC was the game with BACKWARDS, BAD and UNNECESSARILY COMPLEX movement. High top tier fighting games have precise, fluid motion that makes using a controller something I wish could be translated in ease the same to every other genre for handling controls.

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Originally posted by TdogSkal

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Originally posted by Torik
I really do not see how these are examples of 'problem solving'.  You needed to get specific items and it required time and luck to get them.  I don't generally consider brute forcing things to be much of problem solving. 

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The problem is nothing is telling where to find the keys or how to find them or where to even look.  Just when you try to open the door it says "door is locked, requires key floor 1"   In Wow the same quest would say "Door is locked, required key floor 1 which can be found on the skeleton lord who is in his throne room"
See the difference?
 

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Here's the problem with your theory -- that only applies the first time anyone goes into VT or Befallen or whatever zone. Once that problem is solved, a detailed guide and maps will inevitably follow. That's why websites like Allakhazam, EQ Atlas and EQ Vault existed.

As soon as all those problems you're talking about were solved, someone explained how to solve them and the rest of the playerbase followed suit. How is that any different from MMOs now?

Originally posted by Deleted User

Older games had far more skills and far less restrictions. Far more combinations.

It required far more thought, trial and error, and curiousity. and as some have said lead to far more tickets filed.

It didnt take more game skill, it required more brain power. You had knowlege of far more variables to draw from. That's simply a fact. You had to learn far more theory, which required far more thought for perfection.

I'm dying to know of an older MMO that had far more skills and knowledge of far more variables. WoW and its clones can fill a dozen hotbars with abilities and macros. Even if you rarely use most them, those options are there if you need to take advantage of them. At release, EQ mage and priest classes could have EIGHT spells prepared at a time, and had NO combat abilities. Classes that didn't use magic (Warrior, Monk, Rogue) had TWO combat abilities. You could Bash/Kick/Backstab and you could Taunt/Feign/Hide. Sorry, I guess Disarm could also count, although many mobs did more damage after you took away their trash loot weapon.

How many combinations can you really have with just two abilities?

And it's not like I'm pulling an obscure game to prove a point. EQ was the granddaddy, it was the game to beat for years and years until WoW finally dethroned it.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by tazarconan7

The character build is one of the more crutial points of every mmorpg. The difference is this. Some mmorpg's reward smart and carefull player choises thatare hard to make, and some others mmorpg's enourages exploiters who just prefer to read certain sites about what's the best build for  their toons. And it's not the players fault's ofc, but the the companies which make the player character's builds so bloody plain easy to figure.

Um, the distinction you make doesn't exist.

If an MMORPG has different builds, those builds are going to be posted online.  So every MMORPG with customization would automatically fall under your second category.

And it's completely silly to call that "exploiting".  Exploits are taking advantags of bugs or loopholes in rules (which are the same thing.)

Some of those builds will posted and specifically those which they consider to be better. When we are talking about deep complex systems there will always be windows for players to discover build combos that work and not mentioned in elitists sites.

Even in vanilla wow i was playing over 1 years with 2 combination hybrid builds which gave me the advantage in pvp battles without being mentioned even once in those sites. Thats where the reward smart choises stack my friend.So the distinction i made DOES EXIST.

As for the exploiters  its a metaphore,since players in the 2nd example of mmorpg types, either they just copy the builds from x sites, or they are guided by the game with zero build choises for the player (predetermined by devs). 

Originally posted by tazarconan7

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by tazarconan7

The character build is one of the more crutial points of every mmorpg. The difference is this. Some mmorpg's reward smart and carefull player choises thatare hard to make, and some others mmorpg's enourages exploiters who just prefer to read certain sites about what's the best build for  their toons. And it's not the players fault's ofc, but the the companies which make the player character's builds so bloody plain easy to figure.

Um, the distinction you make doesn't exist.

If an MMORPG has different builds, those builds are going to be posted online.  So every MMORPG with customization would automatically fall under your second category.

And it's completely silly to call that "exploiting".  Exploits are taking advantags of bugs or loopholes in rules (which are the same thing.)

Some of those builds will posted and specifically those which they consider to be better. When we are talking about deep complex systems there will always be windows for players to discover build combos that work and not mentioned in elitists sites.

Even in vanilla wow i was playing over 1 years with 2 combination hybrid builds which gave me the advantage in pvp battles without being mentioned even once in those sites. Thats where the reward smart choises stack my friend.So the distinction i made DOES EXIST.

As for the exploiters  its a metaphore,since players in the 2nd example of mmorpg types, either they just copy the builds from x sites, or they are guided by the game with zero build choises for the player (predetermined by devs). 

Yea, I don't get that.  Why play a game and not custom build your own character.  Perhaps it won't be optimal, but the point of playing a character is making the decisions on their progressions when leveling up.  Having someone else make your decisions for you either thru following a guide or having the dev's just decide your choices for you seems like you shouldn't even bother playing the game.

Part of the game is developing the character.  Reading some guides to help make decisions is smart, but just following the guides without considering all other possible options makes you a drone.   There is an optimal character build, and its not going to be found unless you experiment.  A good game is one where its not so easy to determine the optimal character build.  

Most mmorpgs don't require alot of skill.  Just researching and patience.  Problem solving isn't really required.  You can research the answers online.  If you get stuck on a mission, just look it up.  Some skill is required with gaming, but mmorpgs unless they are twitch-based don't require a gaming skill.   They require patience and research.

In PvP, some builds are just stronger than others.  They are usually the ones who win when it comes to PVP.  unless your fighting on group vs group tactics, one on one is predetermined based on the builds of the two involved in the fight.  In a group vs group fight, its determined by tactics as well as individual builds.  Not having a healer in your party makes you more gimp vs a group that does, as healing is one of the necessary ingredients to make a group more resilient.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Patience (mostly tolerance for grind) and experience.

Experience generally does lead to skill inevitably (different rates for different players, of course),

Patience for time sinks and/or grind--well, that's a personality trait more than a skill.

 

Agreed.

I played EQ from Feb 01 till mid 06, and loved it back then. I mean I didnt play any other games, and I have all the time in the world. Looking back, there is no way in Hades I would ever do that again.

Time sinks do not equate to fun. We wont even get started on what a bad group will do to a nights entertainment...let alone your exp meter when you can lose levels.

First of all.. "LOL" @ all the people that NEVER EVEN PLAYED ASHERON'S CALL mocking it, commenting on it, or comparing it to the new MMOs.

Second of all.. "LMAO" @ all the people talking about WoW as if it is an 'old school mmo'. Wow is the game that really started the whole 'dumb the game down so that any 3 year old can succeed' to maximize profit crap.

You people want to know why old school mmos took more skill? VERY SIMPLE ANSWER...

In old school UO, you had to actually dodge and time you attacks and magic spells with proper timing to succeed in the PvP. It wasn't gear based nearly as much as these newer mmos.

In a mmo like Asheron's Call, again twitch timing, quick reflexes, and planning ahead in combat was essential. You had to actually watch your opponent player(s) and counter their attacks with dodge movements, reflexes, and counter attacks with timing was of dire importance.

Newer mmos since WoW are not basd on any of this at all. It's simply knowing your highest DPS attacks or spell hot bar buttons and hitting them just as soon as the timer for that attack clears. Most of the newer mmos even tell you exactly what your DPS is so you have nothing to figure out by application. Just spam your biggest attacks as fast as the game allows you to press that hot bar button.

To add more, most old school mmos didn't allow you the luxury of knowing the threat level of an opponent or mob with color codes (grey, yellow, orange, red etc). The death penalties were much harsher as there was actually a risk vs reward in old school mmos vs the all reward/no risk mmos of today. You lost all loot in UO. You lost your most valuable items, equipped or not in AC as well as incurring a +5% vitea penalty that could stack up to a whopping 40% penalty against all your stats and skills. You had to work off this Vitea penalty (VP) in AC by earning experience. At higher levels especially it could take HOURS to work off a VP, and if you kept dying trying to recover valuable lost loot on a corpse in a deadly PvE area, it could add up to a 40% VP which could literally cripple your character. Imagine if a level 50 WoW player died a few times to mobs and then suddenly had to start killing level 25 mobs again just to work off such a penalty. Hit any wow player with that kind of risk vs reward penalty and they'd probably cry and instantly submit a help ticket, heh.

But arguing with you people that have never played an old school mmo is quite honestly a waste of time. You think you know. You think RIFT is soooo freaking hard. No way could UO or AC have been harder. They are no different you keep screaming.

You had to be there playing old school UO before Trammel in 2001, or you had to be there playing the Darktide PvP server in AC in 2000-2003 to KNOW the difference between old school mmos and the newer mmos today.

There was a HUGE difference. In skill, in having to laarn the world and what to do without gold explanation points showing you the way and what to do. Old school mmos didn't hold your hand. My 4 year old boy can play a game like RIFT and easily level up and succeed. "Green is good, red is bad" is all he'd need to know. A four year old wouldn't stand a chance on old school UO or AC.

But this is a useless argument. All of you WoW and RIFT players that have never even played UO or AC keep yapping about how you know it all, and there is NO DIFFERENCE between old school mmos and new ones.

If you have no knowledge about what you speak, it's usually best and makes you look smarter if you STFU and don't try talking about what you don't know. If you haven't played old school Asheron's Call earlier then about 2003, then don't comment about it. Enough said. It would be like me trying to tell you how to remove your transmission and fix it, but I have absolutely no experience at it.

- Zaxx

what i think is there is to much addons and macro  now its not even funny, i still play wow sometime and i have 0 addons and 0 macro and i do better job then other.

when i watch my friend play its unbelivable how many addons  and macro he got  its take no skill at all  

he click 1 macro that do 3-4 attack

bleh i think addons and macro ruined everything for my part ,

this is why iam looking forward to GW2 , its take skill

That was my Opinion !

Originally posted by sk8chalif

what i think is there is to much addons and macro  now its not even funny, i still play wow sometime and i have 0 addons and 0 macro and i do better job then other.

when i watch my friend play its unbelivable how many addons  and macro he got  its take no skill at all  

he click 1 macro that do 3-4 attack

bleh i think addons and macro ruined everything for my part ,

 

this is why iam looking forward to GW2 , its take skill

 

Fortunately there is what you think and there is what is.

Pressing the right key at the right time at the right place isn't skill, that is timing. Tying an appropriate knot for what is needed is a skill. Knowing what key/knot isn't skill, it's memory. Games take timing and memory. Life takes skill and a measure of luck.

And I used to love my multiple skill macros in WoW. Used them in raids and in PvP where I would crush an opponent then rub my nether parts about an enemy's corpse like a methed out dog with an itchy ass. And addons? Man, if there was an addon that cast a heal then canceled it to conserve mana AND also balanced my auction mule accounts? Sign me up!

Hell, I had an addon that played Phil Collins 'In The Heat Of The Night' when I popped Bloodlust.

Why? Because it was fun. Same reason you DON'T use macros or addons. But then again, I am not using a game as a yardstick to determine whether I am superior or not. (I'm not, you are because you daringly refuse to use capitalization)

@heavyhebrew

I agree that people seem to think here that twitch or timing is skill, which I don't agree it is :/

Anyway, I loathe macros and add-ons I just hope there are games for you that will have macros/add-ons and game for me that don't. 

I don't feel superior I just simply don't want macros and dozens of add-ons (or any add-ons for that matter) in game I play.

I really don't want to look for add-ons, configure them or write macros to be on-same playing field that players that use them.

Originally posted by heavyhebrew

Originally posted by sk8chalif

what i think is there is to much addons and macro  now its not even funny, i still play wow sometime and i have 0 addons and 0 macro and i do better job then other.

when i watch my friend play its unbelivable how many addons  and macro he got  its take no skill at all  

he click 1 macro that do 3-4 attack

bleh i think addons and macro ruined everything for my part ,

 

this is why iam looking forward to GW2 , its take skill

 

Fortunately there is what you think and there is what is.

 Games take timing and memory.

 Alot of people would said otherwise. Specialy pvper,I do alot of Arena with my guild and they never stop saying its take skill

Pressing 3 marcro key that do multiple attack instend of pressing 10 skill 1 after another is easyer and faster.While i use  my 10 +key and other bars with my mouse,

Addons that tell u everything in big red Capital letter  instend of no addons and u have to figure out urself what to do where is the enemy cancel/stun when need, its way easyer

we have a different opinion in the matter,

 Give all the tool he need to beat the guys with only his fist. The guys who got only his fist will need all his skill and of course (Luck like u said) to win again the 1 with all the Tool.

This is the way i see it.

 btw my first language is not english so..ya 

Still say that much of it simply comes down to when the mob had a fighting chance...instead of just being there for you to farm.

Macros, addons, et al aside... there was a greater risk that required greater skill...

...which for many is not as fun.  How can you be the badass if you face the risk of losing?

Originally posted by heavyhebrew

Hell, I had an addon that played Phil Collins 'In The Heat Of The Night' when I popped Bloodlust.

That is by far the worst thing I heard about macroing ever. Not kidding.

But really, the whole idea that macroing gives you a big advantage tells us something. That MMO combat is too predictable and takes very little brain power, and that is rather sad. 

That was true for old school MMOs as well. MMOs needs to add more strategy. Positioning should matter, stuff like higher ground and leaving the sun in your opponents face should be an advantage.

MMO combat should be about outsmarting the other players and mobs, not pressing keys in a certain order faster. I think the future of the genre lies there, or I hope so at least.

Real combat is all about that, and swordsplay actually takes a lot of brain power if you want to be good, strenght and speed helps but fast thinking and the ability to react to what your opponent do is what makes a true master.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Still say that much of it simply comes down to when the mob had a fighting chance...instead of just being there for you to farm.

Macros, addons, et al aside... there was a greater risk that required greater skill...

...which for many is not as fun.  How can you be the badass if you face the risk of losing?

That part is true, today even most bosses are easy to kill and only endgame dungeons and raids offers a challenge.

I actually believe that most people still enjoy challenges, and I think the trend with pathetic mobs will turn again.

Things you get easily just don't mean much, it is stuff you have to fight for that matters.

But for some reason do many people confuse hard with time consuming. Killing 10 000 trash mobs is not hard at all, it just takes time. We don't need to spend years leveling, but we need some challenge while we do it.

No ones definition of 'skill' is quite the same but I agree with the OP. But to put it more neatly quite simply more was expected from us. We were expected to do more and put more effort in.