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Role Playing Discussion  » Life's grit is avoided in fantasy MMOs = FAIL

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30 posts found
  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/10/11 1:30:59 AM#21
Originally posted by VirusDancer

@KingBilleh, I do agree that the personal story and options are missing.  I think back to my time in SWG (pre-NGE) - I played a Bothan Smuggler that ran a shop.  That's not your average thing to do in a MMORPG by any means.  Even when I started EVE back in '05, I took the skill Black Market Trading with the idea of being a smuggler again.  It is a skill that most players probably have never heard of because it was taken out of the game.  The way I could play the game back when there were only 12-14k people playing was a world of difference compared to when there were 30-40-50k or more.

The more "massively populated" EVE became, the less my personal story could exist.

That was kind of the gist of one part I was stating - how other players can affect that personal story . . . but if they do not, well - then it is not really a MMO, is it?

On the other hand, we see certain games trying to sell us a "personal story" - when it is little more than just another form of rails.  I see it as kind of false advertising - even though some are definitely fine with it.

Personal story to me...would be my story - not my side-story.

Playiing that Bothan Smuggler...running the shop.  Personal story.  Playing the Trader/Smuggler in EVE.  Personal story.

What I see companies offering - well, it's like taking the bus to the train station...meh.

Yeah you hit the nail on they head there =D. In ye-old MUDS such as the megasized ones hosted by similtronics:(and rarely with indie hosts) player creativity like that is rewarded. The gods pay attention and such creative effort results in important changes to the world. These are the exact risks that I would love to see the graphic MMOs take. I t can only promote more player involvement and interest. I think it is possibly more a matter of player-critisism fatigue that prevents such proprietor-mentor enthusiasm rather then any financially based reason.

  tekniko64

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/11
Posts: 58

11/10/11 1:13:24 PM#22
This idea doesn't sell. That's why no one is doing it. There's only a select few who want this type of game. If you have tried every mmo out there like you said then maybe you don't like MMOs. Try first person shooters or maybe board games. Monopoly is pretty realistic.

  gobla

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1407

C'est la vie.

11/10/11 2:46:19 PM#23
Originally posted by jeddak

(and stay out of the bad parts of town with them..I could tell you a few horror stories about those sex-workers that would make you afraid to take them back just to see folks in a lifestyle filled with fear and loathing to stay alive and solvent).

Just a side-note here.

Red lights districts are only the really bad parts of town in countries where prostitution is illegal.

In countries, like the OP's, where prostitution is legal or even regulated they usually aren't. Sex-workers there don't necessarily live lifes filled with fear and loathing to stay alive and solvent.

 

OT: I quite agree. I'd love to see some less idealized fantasy worlds. A good dark fantasy MMO filled with war and death would be right up my alley.

Add in some great territorial warfare, a player-run economy, great crafting system and item decay and I think it could be a great game. Just please, no full-loot PvP.

We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/10/11 9:50:34 PM#24
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by jeddak

(and stay out of the bad parts of town with them..I could tell you a few horror stories about those sex-workers that would make you afraid to take them back just to see folks in a lifestyle filled with fear and loathing to stay alive and solvent).

Just a side-note here.

Red lights districts are only the really bad parts of town in countries where prostitution is illegal.

In countries, like the OP's, where prostitution is legal or even regulated they usually aren't. Sex-workers there don't necessarily live lifes filled with fear and loathing to stay alive and solvent.

 

OT: I quite agree. I'd love to see some less idealized fantasy worlds. A good dark fantasy MMO filled with war and death would be right up my alley.

Add in some great territorial warfare, a player-run economy, great crafting system and item decay and I think it could be a great game. Just please, no full-loot PvP.

Oh my! Original thought! I'm lost for words, thankyou for restoring my hope for humanity! I was just about to dust off the Monopoly set (I wasn't) haha.

If people dont want grit then why is "Game of Thrones" the biggest TV hit of the genre ever? Im looking forward to the next gen MMOs, I doubt it will be much longer.

 

  Consumer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/01/11
Posts: 9

12/01/11 11:23:16 AM#25

As someone who loves the MMO idea as a concept, but finds the typical "kill 20 Squigglestriped Whatsits and then bring this Macguffin to some guy across the street, O mighty hero!" execution of that concept lacking, all I can say is...I cannot wait for The Old Republic to go live. If anyone can inject story and meaning and class-specific narrative in to the MMO world, it's Bioware. I just hope that it's not overrun in the first month with characters named "dArTh_eViLLLxxx36" wandering around Korriban with pirate eyepatches spamming the chat channel with guild invites and sweet l00t.

Ever Onward,

J

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11826

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/01/11 11:29:58 AM#26
Originally posted by KingBilleh

One sunny spring day I took my kids on a tour of  the local red light district and indicated to them a sex worker. I said 'that person is a prostitute, you must never ever disrespect her.' I cannot properly describe my pride as they proclaimed  that they certainly never would do so.

I  have played / trialled pretty much every MMO there is and I can tell you that every MMO host has a common fault in their philosophy. They believe that we want a world that is simple and predictable. That is what our pathetic simpering politicians think we want. Human inclinations are far more tribal, we care for our own and fear the unknown. I can not wait for the belated epiphany of the MMO creators when they give us the gratifiying gritty world that we fantasize about as we do the daily office grind lol.

Working your way up to becoming THE hero following a quest ant-trail has been done to death and is obsolete. It's time to take it to the next level. Modern programing can cope with it. It's time to make MMO's a truely personal experience. Everyone is different and we need a personal fantasy journey for genuine gratification. If an MMO creator wants to take that next bold step they need the courage to enter that unknown land where the complex nature of human interaction leads the game.

Tribes may grow or diminish. Tribes can own a territory and receive it's income and defensive benefits. A tribe's progress can affect the world.

What do you folks think?

 

Try Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online or browse around TMC. What you are looking for has been around for quite some time now. You may not like the options that are out there, but to contend that this 'next level' doesn't exist is kinda silly. :) 

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/02/11 3:06:17 AM#27
Originally posted by Consumer

As someone who loves the MMO idea as a concept, but finds the typical "kill 20 Squigglestriped Whatsits and then bring this Macguffin to some guy across the street, O mighty hero!" execution of that concept lacking, all I can say is...I cannot wait for The Old Republic to go live. If anyone can inject story and meaning and class-specific narrative in to the MMO world, it's Bioware. I just hope that it's not overrun in the first month with characters named "dArTh_eViLLLxxx36" wandering around Korriban with pirate eyepatches spamming the chat channel with guild invites and sweet l00t.

Ever Onward,

J

Yah well they are using the hero engine which should allow for much of my whining to be soothed. If only hero's journey was made I'm certain this post would be unnecessary, sigh. I have high hopes as well for swtor =D

 

  Mister_Re

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/11
Posts: 142

Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change-Confucius

12/02/11 7:19:00 PM#28
Originally posted by KingBilleh
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by KingBilleh

What do you folks think?

 

What do I think?  I'm kind of confused.  You want an increased personal story in a MMO.

Personally, I want a MMORPG to be massively multiplayer... rather than massively singleplayer.

edit:  Felt the need to elaborate.  I agree there should be more options.  However, that would be part of it being multiplayer rather than singleplayer.

Personal story would be part of overall story - the overall story of the living world we'd all be playing in.  At times, personal stories would come into conflict - at times, they could benefit each other.  But it is an MMO, if it is just a bunch of people exploring personal stories that do not affect anything else in the game - why is it a MMO?

I utterly agree with you. Based on the captions you wear on your post I think we are actually more or less of the same opinion. I don't expect the game world to change every time I sneeze, nor the complex destiny path possibilities of, for example, the classic Japanese game Princess Maker however I dont think you could honestly tell me that it is impossible for the MMORPG programmers to create a more in-depth experience than is currently available and with the ingame choices you make affecting your fate. I want a less linear and predictable path for the sake of immersion and replayability. And also much more interactivity with the environment. Currently we are meant to admire and be grateful for the art design but "dont touch the artworks" like a museum or something:

Half the doors cant be opened, trees cant be climbed or cut down, rocks cant be picked up, windows cant be broken, mobs are invulnerable, fires cant cook or burn things, river water cant be drunk, flowers cant be picked, items on tables are superglued in place, taverns are empty and souless, walls and signs and paper cant be written on, animals march back and forward over the same ground and dont chase each other, weather has no actual effect, you usually cant just sit down on the ground, you cant direct the gaze of your avatar for RP, emotes systems have not evolved in 7 years, there are no contagious diseases, you can still cast spells and fight without penalty whilst ON FIRE, pets dont care about you no matter how you treat them, player guild made "towns" can only be made on a preset grid and with preset limitations, hidden doors and passages are very rare and the existing examples are woeful, small wearables like rings etc dont appear on your avatar, dont start me on crafting...

As you say MMORPGs are about human interaction and the crowd dynamic but I dont believe the potential of this has been anywhere near explored as deeply as their technology and obscenly massive income allows. It's about the developers taking some risks and surrendering a little control to AI and their customers actions.

"Heroes are about character - not gear" and "i miss the MMORPG genre..." both say to me that you feel something is missing. If you or I could define exactly what needs to be done we would be rich lol. The big MMORPG developers ARE rich and can put a bit of that dragon's horde of gold into research and development instead of bonuses for the directors.

I agree

  Mister_Re

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/11
Posts: 142

Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change-Confucius

12/02/11 7:25:36 PM#29
Originally posted by headphones

i think the big problem is an mmo can only go in one of two directions.

sandbox style like eve online. or quest style like wow.

that's it.

with sandbox, the devs just have to give you a blank killing field and dust off their hands and if you're not having fun, that's between you and the creative side of your brain.

the quest style is the one everyone hates because it encourages grind. boring grind. kill ten rats.

kill ten more rats.

kill fifteen rats.

oh, here's a difficult quest: kill 100 rats.

we all love oblivion. we all want an mmo like it. but, do we REALLY?

does anyone remember the warlock in wow? remember how you had to do a zillion quests to get your nightmare steed? and remember the rogue's little quests through the syndicate? slight dipping of toes into what gw2 is referring to as a personal story. and it was a great idea. it really was.

UNTIL everyone wanted to be maxed, like, right NOW.

speed won out and there were complaints. complaints the quests were too hard. no one was doing the instances required to get the ingredients to get the steed. complaints that, as a i should be able to do those rogue quests too. and why is THEIR quest more fun than mine? that's not fair. we want to do ALL the quests without having to reroll. and that guy's reward is better than mine! it's not fair! we want our cake and their cake, too!

*breathe*

that's what it's like.

personally, i think an mmo based on oblivion would be too much for me. i would be too happy. i would never have to google "boobs" again to be happy.

but the vast majority of gamers are never interested in the quests. they're not interested in the journey. all they want to know is: what's at endgame and how quickly can i get there to be doing it, too?

and THAT is why devs don't waste their time, in my opinion. because they know if they spend three years setting up a wonderful system to fully immerse you in your CLASS, everyone will still want to skip it, power level and stand at the top of the mountain demanding raider-style lootz fast and now.

shame, really. i think it should be more about the adventure. so here's a wacky idea: delete levels altogether. make it about the journey, not the destination.

I say screw those that whine for what they want. When ppl get to endgame raids. and fail numerous times. they just try again, so there shouldn't be a problem with a challenge before the end. "I'm not your mammy, don't whine to me, either level up (or get better) and try again, or shut up and go suck your mom's tit." is what I would say 'em.

  Gutrippa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 17

12/05/11 2:38:52 PM#30

There's a lot here that rings true & possibly foretells the death of traditional MMO's...

I was an Epic scifi/fantasy reader and AD&D'er long before I ever entered my first MUD. Those were okay but MMO's drew me in with the unfounded lure of 'Be the Hero, create your own Story/Destiny, conquer Epic beasts', etc... ad infinitum :)

I wandered thru a month and up to to 8 years of playing more than a dozen MMO's and never truly found the Holy Grail of MMO's - what I & most here allude to wanting... an entertaining MMO that simply enables/rewards Us to step away from "Life's grit" for a little while, don whatever online persona we wish and play it to the hilt.

Sadly in most MMO's that lure turned out to be more of a hook into an endless grind of mind-dumbingly null quests, gear grinds, and alternating Nerfs/promises to fix in an upcoming GU or Xpack along the way to empyting your wallet!

A lot of our fellow players add to the failure of MMO's with demeaning what should be a fun escape from reality with their crude/stupid jokes, real world prejudices, opinions, and in game grieving, kill stealing, & drama.

Is there a Holy Grail out there?  An MMO that allows, enables, fosters the spirit of the Hero & Fantasy to thrive... I think GW2 may actually deliver on that, it's definitely being developed in that direction.  Hopefully most who play it will embrace the freedom it provides to choose & 'live' their path in game to the hilt & get away from normal human greed and vices for a bit of alienish Charr goodness through bloodletting, or Asuran dominance through superior technology. It should be good fun and hopefully won't attract folks hellbent on trying to force a redesign of the core game into yet another clone of an old tired -insert name of game-  concept...

 

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