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Role Playing Discussion  » Life's grit is avoided in fantasy MMOs = FAIL

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30 posts found
  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/04/11 8:48:06 AM#1

One sunny spring day I took my kids on a tour of  the local red light district and indicated to them a sex worker. I said 'that person is a prostitute, you must never ever disrespect her.' I cannot properly describe my pride as they proclaimed  that they certainly never would do so.

I  have played / trialled pretty much every MMO there is and I can tell you that every MMO host has a common fault in their philosophy. They believe that we want a world that is simple and predictable. That is what our pathetic simpering politicians think we want. Human inclinations are far more tribal, we care for our own and fear the unknown. I can not wait for the belated epiphany of the MMO creators when they give us the gratifiying gritty world that we fantasize about as we do the daily office grind lol.

Working your way up to becoming THE hero following a quest ant-trail has been done to death and is obsolete. It's time to take it to the next level. Modern programing can cope with it. It's time to make MMO's a truely personal experience. Everyone is different and we need a personal fantasy journey for genuine gratification. If an MMO creator wants to take that next bold step they need the courage to enter that unknown land where the complex nature of human interaction leads the game.

Tribes may grow or diminish. Tribes can own a territory and receive it's income and defensive benefits. A tribe's progress can affect the world.

What do you folks think?

 

  Xenharmonic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/11
Posts: 18

11/05/11 8:17:52 PM#2

Firstly I'd like to state the obvious: "You can still go out and do X, Y, Z in real life for the ultimate experience.", the ultimate game so to speak.

Secondly I COMPLETELY agree that this is the future of MMOs. Player driven games like EVE Online (though you may not like it) are MUCH MUCH MUCH more interesting to me then the conventional "You are the hero, go grind quests so you can get 1337 stuff later on"'

  KanoRain

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 107

11/05/11 8:20:02 PM#3

TERA

Originally posted by Deleted User

So much of the game is centered around forced grouping that soloing is not an option, major design flaw in my opinion.

^
^lol

  marinrider

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/06
Posts: 1574

11/05/11 8:20:08 PM#4

I play games to get away from the "gritty" world.  While I do think that games can be more dynamic and less repetitive, I dont want them to be ultra realisitc.  Games, unlike painting, has never been about recreating the world we live in.  Its about creating a world we dont live in.

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/05/11 10:29:20 PM#5

Fair comment! In my post I said that everyone is different and want different flavours of experience, to me the current MMO's have too much "sugar" in the mix. In a fantasy world you should be able to choose how bitey the experience can be.

For example if you choose the street life of a rogue it should have a very different feel than a paladin. I haven't found a non-mud that has this quality.

  marinrider

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/06
Posts: 1574

11/05/11 10:32:59 PM#6
Originally posted by KingBilleh

Fair comment! In my post I said that everyone is different and want different flavours of experience, to me the current MMO's have too much "sugar" in the mix. In a fantasy world you should be able to choose how bitey the experience can be.

For example if you choose the street life of a rogue it should have a very different feel than a paladin. I haven't found a non-mud that has this quality.

Oh yes, I understand what you mean.  In that case I agree with you for the most part.  

  the420kid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/19/05
Posts: 417

11/05/11 10:35:28 PM#7
Originally posted by KingBilleh

Fair comment! In my post I said that everyone is different and want different flavours of experience, to me the current MMO's have too much "sugar" in the mix. In a fantasy world you should be able to choose how bitey the experience can be.

For example if you choose the street life of a rogue it should have a very different feel than a paladin. I haven't found a non-mud that has this quality.

this wont really happen in an MMO, probaly the best case scenario is what blizzard has tried to do with phassing where the towns and what not change as you quest and progress but thats about all the affect you can really have on the game world in an mmo.  It would be near impossible for you to see me yet we are in 2 very different worlds that have changed based on our play.

What you need to do is forget people for a while and welcome NPC's into your life.  Single player RPG's are the one true place where you can really interact affect and change the game world based on your play including how npcs interact at the mere sight of you be you a good or bad player or perhaps your there landlord or perhaps there hero it could be anything but only in a single player rpgs can you really get the immersive feel that you want..

My advice to you is simple, order skyrim from direct2drive preload that mother and get ready for this friday 00:00:00 EST 11/11/11  Its gonna be epic and it has everything you want sans the human beings :P

  jeddak

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 251

This too shall pass...

11/05/11 10:44:43 PM#8

The op worries me (and no I won't say why since there is nothing to be gained from a discussion that is really a personal thing). But a game is really not meant to give anyone a reason to exist (or dream about)and as far as a know most are meant to be money-making enterprises which tends to mean they are built to draw in as many as possible which tends to make them nothing like what the op wants. I have played games (been awhile) that we're of that ilk and I liked them alot but they ended up being forced to change for more mass appeal.

All that being said: I'd love a game like the op dreams about as my kids are grown and gaming is about all I do now. My advice to the op is to live your grit filled life, raise the kids right and please run for office if you dare.

(and stay out of the bad parts of town with them..I could tell you a few horror stories about those sex-workers that would make you afraid to take them back just to see folks in a lifestyle filled with fear and loathing to stay alive and solvent).

UO,EQ (best mmo's). Been in lotro for almost 7 years mostly in pvp as a lovable spider: Mummy

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/05/11 11:49:06 PM#9
Originally posted by the420kid
Originally posted by KingBilleh

Fair comment! In my post I said that everyone is different and want different flavours of experience, to me the current MMO's have too much "sugar" in the mix. In a fantasy world you should be able to choose how bitey the experience can be.

For example if you choose the street life of a rogue it should have a very different feel than a paladin. I haven't found a non-mud that has this quality.

this wont really happen in an MMO, probaly the best case scenario is what blizzard has tried to do with phassing where the towns and what not change as you quest and progress but thats about all the affect you can really have on the game world in an mmo.  It would be near impossible for you to see me yet we are in 2 very different worlds that have changed based on our play.

What you need to do is forget people for a while and welcome NPC's into your life.  Single player RPG's are the one true place where you can really interact affect and change the game world based on your play including how npcs interact at the mere sight of you be you a good or bad player or perhaps your there landlord or perhaps there hero it could be anything but only in a single player rpgs can you really get the immersive feel that you want..

My advice to you is simple, order skyrim from direct2drive preload that mother and get ready for this friday 00:00:00 EST 11/11/11  Its gonna be epic and it has everything you want sans the human beings :P

Great comment! It was the work of Bethesda Game Studios that inspired my post. In "Oblivion" mobs and npcs interact with and respond to each other (sometimes with hilarious results). But even though they have the IQ of an amoeba you at least get the feeling of a living, dynamic world.

I dont see the world needing to change due to your influence (like burning down villages) so much as your personal experience with intelligent quest givers and original quests. The IRL equivalent is that you say hi to a passing man in a suit on your suburban street. Perhaps he is a mafia hitman who has just fulfilled a contract. You and he both see the same street however your world perceptions, motivations and plans are very different. In Oblivion I think there was only one  "find 20 of these herbs there" quest and even then you are mislead as there are only 2 plants at that location. 

I'm not even playing an MMO at the moment. I cant look and another questgiver that stands in the same place staring into space for all eternity telling endless hordes of bored gamers to fulfil their destiny by killing 20 boars.

 

 

  the420kid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/19/05
Posts: 417

11/06/11 1:00:10 AM#10
Originally posted by KingBilleh
Originally posted by the420kid
Originally posted by KingBilleh

Fair comment! In my post I said that everyone is different and want different flavours of experience, to me the current MMO's have too much "sugar" in the mix. In a fantasy world you should be able to choose how bitey the experience can be.

For example if you choose the street life of a rogue it should have a very different feel than a paladin. I haven't found a non-mud that has this quality.

this wont really happen in an MMO, probaly the best case scenario is what blizzard has tried to do with phassing where the towns and what not change as you quest and progress but thats about all the affect you can really have on the game world in an mmo.  It would be near impossible for you to see me yet we are in 2 very different worlds that have changed based on our play.

What you need to do is forget people for a while and welcome NPC's into your life.  Single player RPG's are the one true place where you can really interact affect and change the game world based on your play including how npcs interact at the mere sight of you be you a good or bad player or perhaps your there landlord or perhaps there hero it could be anything but only in a single player rpgs can you really get the immersive feel that you want..

My advice to you is simple, order skyrim from direct2drive preload that mother and get ready for this friday 00:00:00 EST 11/11/11  Its gonna be epic and it has everything you want sans the human beings :P

Great comment! It was the work of Bethesda Game Studios that inspired my post. In "Oblivion" mobs and npcs interact with and respond to each other (sometimes with hilarious results). But even though they have the IQ of an amoeba you at least get the feeling of a living, dynamic world.

I dont see the world needing to change due to your influence (like burning down villages) so much as your personal experience with intelligent quest givers and original quests. The IRL equivalent is that you say hi to a passing man in a suit on your suburban street. Perhaps he is a mafia hitman who has just fulfilled a contract. You and he both see the same street however your world perceptions, motivations and plans are very different. In Oblivion I think there was only one  "find 20 of these herbs there" quest and even then you are mislead as there are only 2 plants at that location. 

I'm not even playing an MMO at the moment. I cant look and another questgiver that stands in the same place staring into space for all eternity telling endless hordes of bored gamers to fulfil their destiny by killing 20 boars.

 

 

I am feeling you, I currently am playing no mmorpg's just battle field 3 while I await 11/11/11 :)

  User Deleted
11/06/11 1:12:36 AM#11

i think the big problem is an mmo can only go in one of two directions.

sandbox style like eve online. or quest style like wow.

that's it.

with sandbox, the devs just have to give you a blank killing field and dust off their hands and if you're not having fun, that's between you and the creative side of your brain.

the quest style is the one everyone hates because it encourages grind. boring grind. kill ten rats.

kill ten more rats.

kill fifteen rats.

oh, here's a difficult quest: kill 100 rats.

we all love oblivion. we all want an mmo like it. but, do we REALLY?

does anyone remember the warlock in wow? remember how you had to do a zillion quests to get your nightmare steed? and remember the rogue's little quests through the syndicate? slight dipping of toes into what gw2 is referring to as a personal story. and it was a great idea. it really was.

UNTIL everyone wanted to be maxed, like, right NOW.

speed won out and there were complaints. complaints the quests were too hard. no one was doing the instances required to get the ingredients to get the steed. complaints that, as a <insert class here> i should be able to do those rogue quests too. and why is THEIR quest more fun than mine? that's not fair. we want to do ALL the quests without having to reroll. and that guy's reward is better than mine! it's not fair! we want our cake and their cake, too!

*breathe*

that's what it's like.

personally, i think an mmo based on oblivion would be too much for me. i would be too happy. i would never have to google "boobs" again to be happy.

but the vast majority of gamers are never interested in the quests. they're not interested in the journey. all they want to know is: what's at endgame and how quickly can i get there to be doing it, too?

and THAT is why devs don't waste their time, in my opinion. because they know if they spend three years setting up a wonderful system to fully immerse you in your CLASS, everyone will still want to skip it, power level and stand at the top of the mountain demanding raider-style lootz fast and now.

shame, really. i think it should be more about the adventure. so here's a wacky idea: delete levels altogether. make it about the journey, not the destination.

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/06/11 8:34:38 AM#12
Originally posted by headphones

i think the big problem is an mmo can only go in one of two directions.

sandbox style like eve online. or quest style like wow.

that's it.

with sandbox, the devs just have to give you a blank killing field and dust off their hands and if you're not having fun, that's between you and the creative side of your brain.

the quest style is the one everyone hates because it encourages grind. boring grind. kill ten rats.

kill ten more rats.

kill fifteen rats.

oh, here's a difficult quest: kill 100 rats.

we all love oblivion. we all want an mmo like it. but, do we REALLY?

does anyone remember the warlock in wow? remember how you had to do a zillion quests to get your nightmare steed? and remember the rogue's little quests through the syndicate? slight dipping of toes into what gw2 is referring to as a personal story. and it was a great idea. it really was.

UNTIL everyone wanted to be maxed, like, right NOW.

speed won out and there were complaints. complaints the quests were too hard. no one was doing the instances required to get the ingredients to get the steed. complaints that, as a i should be able to do those rogue quests too. and why is THEIR quest more fun than mine? that's not fair. we want to do ALL the quests without having to reroll. and that guy's reward is better than mine! it's not fair! we want our cake and their cake, too!

*breathe*

that's what it's like.

personally, i think an mmo based on oblivion would be too much for me. i would be too happy. i would never have to google "boobs" again to be happy.

but the vast majority of gamers are never interested in the quests. they're not interested in the journey. all they want to know is: what's at endgame and how quickly can i get there to be doing it, too?

and THAT is why devs don't waste their time, in my opinion. because they know if they spend three years setting up a wonderful system to fully immerse you in your CLASS, everyone will still want to skip it, power level and stand at the top of the mountain demanding raider-style lootz fast and now.

shame, really. i think it should be more about the adventure. so here's a wacky idea: delete levels altogether. make it about the journey, not the destination.

Wow thankyou for your thoughful reply. Your sinopsis of the current state of MMOs is inspiring.

Let me take us back to the industrial revolution. Goods were manufactured to be suitable for the general consumption of the newly financially empowered working class. One size fits all or else go and get stuffed.. As Henry Ford said they can have the model T Ford in any color as long as it is black.

Factories were designed and build to manufacture one product only.

Years later in the eternal corporate quest to make more revenue from consumers led to research into psychology and they identified a dozen or so consumer personality types. The innovation of robotics allowed factories to produce a range of products from one plant to appeal to each of the psychological types thus making products which will appeal to the majority of the population.

Hey, all im saying is I can't wait for the inevitable equivalent inovation in MMO programming.

  Xenharmonic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/11
Posts: 18

11/06/11 8:33:38 PM#13

Kingbilley have you by any chance tried EVE online? I think you might like it... plenty of "grit" and it's mostly (and I mean really) player driven. You can be a rogue, pirate, miner, merc, professional poker player (im not kidding), scientest, explorer, trader, you name it, in EVE you can probobly do it.

If you're looking for a fantasy themed game like this (that is to say on a planet haha) I don't think Skyrim is the answer you're looking for.

TES games and the like, while a marvellous achievement, get boring to me fairly quickly as im fighting against (or with) some heartless algorithim. If Skyrim had even a limited multiplayer it would be much, much more appealing IMO.

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/07/11 5:51:10 AM#14
Originally posted by Xenharmonic

Kingbilley have you by any chance tried EVE online? I think you might like it... plenty of "grit" and it's mostly (and I mean really) player driven. You can be a rogue, pirate, miner, merc, professional poker player (im not kidding), scientest, explorer, trader, you name it, in EVE you can probobly do it.

If you're looking for a fantasy themed game like this (that is to say on a planet haha) I don't think Skyrim is the answer you're looking for.

TES games and the like, while a marvellous achievement, get boring to me fairly quickly as im fighting against (or with) some heartless algorithim. If Skyrim had even a limited multiplayer it would be much, much more appealing IMO.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that human interaction in games provides the unpredictable and often delightful responses that a npc cannot be reasonably expected to provide for at least 12 years from now.

Yeah ive played Eve twice now. Both times I was excited and entralled with the potential and both times my subscriptions ended because of grind fatigue. A lot of potential there, expecially with their recent attempts to address the major fault of having no actual avatar. Im not impressed with the introduction of the Item mall considering that it is already a pay-monthly type deal. In 3 or 4 years I have no doubt it will be a great game. The reason for my post was for discussion of the lack of originality and innovation among the current/existing MMORPGs.

  Xenharmonic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/11
Posts: 18

11/07/11 8:10:35 PM#15

The thing about EVE online is it's heavily focused on politics, economy, player interaction (etc).

I cancelled by subscription a while ago my (acc is only like 2 months old, im still heaps new haha) as I was looking at EVE in the wrong way—it's not really a fully combat focused MMO or whatever. A lot of the game in EVE is metagaming, intrigue, etc... which interests me at the moment, so ill be resubbing in a few days time (you can just pay by the month so I don't have to commit or anything).

Ill definately play other games like Starcraft 2 when I want to have 1 on 1 "twitch skill" battles (which are awesome) and stuff...

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

11/07/11 8:19:26 PM#16
Originally posted by KingBilleh

What do you folks think?

 

What do I think?  I'm kind of confused.  You want an increased personal story in a MMO.

Personally, I want a MMORPG to be massively multiplayer... rather than massively singleplayer.

edit:  Felt the need to elaborate.  I agree there should be more options.  However, that would be part of it being multiplayer rather than singleplayer.

Personal story would be part of overall story - the overall story of the living world we'd all be playing in.  At times, personal stories would come into conflict - at times, they could benefit each other.  But it is an MMO, if it is just a bunch of people exploring personal stories that do not affect anything else in the game - why is it a MMO?

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/08/11 5:42:49 AM#17
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by KingBilleh

What do you folks think?

 

What do I think?  I'm kind of confused.  You want an increased personal story in a MMO.

Personally, I want a MMORPG to be massively multiplayer... rather than massively singleplayer.

edit:  Felt the need to elaborate.  I agree there should be more options.  However, that would be part of it being multiplayer rather than singleplayer.

Personal story would be part of overall story - the overall story of the living world we'd all be playing in.  At times, personal stories would come into conflict - at times, they could benefit each other.  But it is an MMO, if it is just a bunch of people exploring personal stories that do not affect anything else in the game - why is it a MMO?

I utterly agree with you. Based on the captions you wear on your post I think we are actually more or less of the same opinion. I don't expect the game world to change every time I sneeze, nor the complex destiny path possibilities of, for example, the classic Japanese game Princess Maker however I dont think you could honestly tell me that it is impossible for the MMORPG programmers to create a more in-depth experience than is currently available and with the ingame choices you make affecting your fate. I want a less linear and predictable path for the sake of immersion and replayability. And also much more interactivity with the environment. Currently we are meant to admire and be grateful for the art design but "dont touch the artworks" like a museum or something:

Half the doors cant be opened, trees cant be climbed or cut down, rocks cant be picked up, windows cant be broken, mobs are invulnerable, fires cant cook or burn things, river water cant be drunk, flowers cant be picked, items on tables are superglued in place, taverns are empty and souless, walls and signs and paper cant be written on, animals march back and forward over the same ground and dont chase each other, weather has no actual effect, you usually cant just sit down on the ground, you cant direct the gaze of your avatar for RP, emotes systems have not evolved in 7 years, there are no contagious diseases, you can still cast spells and fight without penalty whilst ON FIRE, pets dont care about you no matter how you treat them, player guild made "towns" can only be made on a preset grid and with preset limitations, hidden doors and passages are very rare and the existing examples are woeful, small wearables like rings etc dont appear on your avatar, dont start me on crafting...

As you say MMORPGs are about human interaction and the crowd dynamic but I dont believe the potential of this has been anywhere near explored as deeply as their technology and obscenly massive income allows. It's about the developers taking some risks and surrendering a little control to AI and their customers actions.

"Heroes are about character - not gear" and "i miss the MMORPG genre..." both say to me that you feel something is missing. If you or I could define exactly what needs to be done we would be rich lol. The big MMORPG developers ARE rich and can put a bit of that dragon's horde of gold into research and development instead of bonuses for the directors.

  Servant-XII

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 34

Eyes that look are common. Eyes that see are rare.

11/10/11 12:41:24 AM#18
I disagree with the premise because it's built on the argument that every player wants the same kind of experience in an MMO. They don't. The different genres of games and more importantly, people, can attest to that. The post assumes that developers just have money to burn like wood and also is a reflection of their woeful misunderstanding of business. But I digress.

A fact that no one can deny is that MMORPGs are games made for the express purpose of putting us into situations that our lives don't reflect. Depending on our mood, we generally want to escape "real" life and immerse ourselves in another world. There may be elements of the game that we want life like in content but the general idea is that we want to get away to be some place else. It's not simply a lack of creativity by developers, it's a lack of understanding by gamers, some who are never satisfied. There's always a complaint around every corner. It's not to say the devs should be exempt from criticism. It is to say that it's a game and therefore it will be different strokes for different folks. Like it was suggested, you're probly not looking for an MMORPG. You're looking for a single player experience.

CoH Supergroup: The Millennium Paladins

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

11/10/11 1:01:07 AM#19

@KingBilleh, I do agree that the personal story and options are missing.  I think back to my time in SWG (pre-NGE) - I played a Bothan Smuggler that ran a shop.  That's not your average thing to do in a MMORPG by any means.  Even when I started EVE back in '05, I took the skill Black Market Trading with the idea of being a smuggler again.  It is a skill that most players probably have never heard of because it was taken out of the game.  The way I could play the game back when there were only 12-14k people playing was a world of difference compared to when there were 30-40-50k or more.

The more "massively populated" EVE became, the less my personal story could exist.

That was kind of the gist of one part I was stating - how other players can affect that personal story . . . but if they do not, well - then it is not really a MMO, is it?

On the other hand, we see certain games trying to sell us a "personal story" - when it is little more than just another form of rails.  I see it as kind of false advertising - even though some are definitely fine with it.

Personal story to me...would be my story - not my side-story.

Playiing that Bothan Smuggler...running the shop.  Personal story.  Playing the Trader/Smuggler in EVE.  Personal story.

What I see companies offering - well, it's like taking the bus to the train station...meh.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  KingBilleh

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 21

 
OP  11/10/11 1:01:09 AM#20
Originally posted by Servant-XII
I disagree with the premise because it's built on the argument that every player wants the same kind of experience in an MMO. They don't. The different genres of games and more importantly, people, can attest to that. The post assumes that developers just have money to burn like wood and also is a reflection of their woeful misunderstanding of business. But I digress.

A fact that no one can deny is that MMORPGs are games made for the express purpose of putting us into situations that our lives don't reflect. Depending on our mood, we generally want to escape "real" life and immerse ourselves in another world. There may be elements of the game that we want life like in content but the general idea is that we want to get away to be some place else. It's not simply a lack of creativity by developers, it's a lack of understanding by gamers, some who are never satisfied. There's always a complaint around every corner. It's not to say the devs should be exempt from criticism. It is to say that it's a game and therefore it will be different strokes for different folks. Like it was suggested, you're probly not looking for an MMORPG. You're looking for a single player experience.

 I dont think you read my post properly at all!. It's all about the individual. So many replies seem to suggest that  to ask for innovation is an attack on capitalism somehow. In fact it is the opposite. Modern internet markets in other fields such as DVD and Book sales have realised the potential market of catering to the tail end of the consumer-wants bell-curve. Blockbuster movies try to capture the middle of the bell curve to make the most money but at the same time recieve well deserved critisism for sacrificing depth of story for the sake of a quick buck - making their hard efforts datable and historically dubious.

 

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