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World of Warcraft

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General Discussion  » Poll should Ghostcrawler be sacked over MOP ?

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189 posts found
  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/01/11 7:46:45 PM#121
Originally posted by C1d0s
 It will be the EXACT same when these new changes are implimented, only less choices will be made overall and the 'customization' will be a difference of unessential, normally meaningless talents.

Most of the talents they previewed were significant choices, even if there are only 6 to make that far better than anything WoW has had, even before they have started testing. The fact is spending even 61 points isn't more choice if 90% of those are talents everyone else takes too.

 

  User Deleted
11/01/11 8:36:38 PM#122
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by C1d0s
Because fewer choices means more customization, right?

Considering WoW has always had cookie cutter builds since it released, then any actual meaningful customization is an improvement. Also the addition of specs at level 10 was one of the best improvements WoWs system has had, infact it probably the only real change its ever had beyond the shuffling of talents each expansion.

Really even though with this new idea you spend less "points" overall, you are actually making real changes to how you play in comparison too other players. I suppose though if your the type that just likes making terrible builds because it makes you special, then yeah your probably not going to like this kind of idea.

But for players that what an actual competive build and still have some choice in how they play then this system gives them more meaningful choice than WoW has ever done. Even back in TBC you were lucky if your class had more than 1 viable tree for anything, let alone had spec variations with a tree.

Even in terms of class balance GC hasn't done any worse than anyone else, I mean the irony is hes known for nerfing Ret Paladins. People hate on him for that, yet without him Ret Paladins would still be a complete joke that you couldn't nerf even if you tried.

I mean its totally obvious 90% of you whiners didn't play WoW back in vanilla, if you had you be damn grateful for LKs/Cata's talents trees and gameplay changes.

Yes, cookie cutter builds have always been the norm because they trees have always supported this.  They've never fully embraced real choice and diversity in them.  WoW is a very min/max game as it is.    Just because it's always been this way is not an excuse to make it even worse and even more cookie cutter.  The talents will get scrutinized by theorycrafters and a pve and pvp build will surface that will be used by th majority because one will do the best dps or provide the most survival.  This has not changed with the way they design the talents in an effort to get people to play fewer options and make balancing easier.  While that is true, they've still never been able to even remotely balance specs/classes.  So pick one.  Are they inept at it or do they do it on purpose?

Even when he started doing all the homogenization, he did it half ass.  They homogenized all offensive dps without considering control or defenses.  So classes strong in those areas got equal offense and became overpowered compared to heavy offense classes that just got put in an order they cycle.  He has continued this path.

The new talent trees, as they are now, are horribly thought out and balanced.  Especially for hybrids where entire tiers are really for one spec.  In the end you can only pick one per tier.  Once their dps weights are explored, there will be a build and the majority of people will use it.  You are forced to choose the "best" per tier.  Even the older points system offered more choice than that though it was equally a failure. 

They could do better or allow more choice, but they won't.  Remember when DKs first came out?  There were quite a few builds that were very popular.  They removed some to make it easier to balance and called the rest unintended.  They were pretty close in overall performance and varied in how they played.  How they should be.  Pretty much the entire point of having multiple specs was to play what you liked and have it relatively equal or to support a different role. 

  Abdar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/04
Posts: 395

11/01/11 8:40:04 PM#123

Has anyone actually played the finished product here? This seems like a poll for after it's released, not when it's announced.

.. and yes panda's are kinda lame, but so are talking cows and goats from space.

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/01/11 9:00:59 PM#124
Originally posted by paroxysm

 In the end you can only pick one per tier.  Once their dps weights are explored, there will be a build and the majority of people will use it.  You are forced to choose the "best" per tier. 

Well considering that almost all of them are utility talents its going to be hard to decide based off DPS. Even on the DPS cooldowns, very few are just flat DPS increases but yeah some talents will be better in certain areas of the game. Especially when it comes to raiding builds but thats really enviable due to its specialized nature.

For other less role based areas of the game, most of the choices arn't that clear cut even at this preview stage.

  catlana

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 1684

Playing GW2, ToR, PoE
Played AoC, Aion, DDO, EQ2, CoH, Rift, TERA, WAR, WoW

11/02/11 3:29:40 AM#125
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by C1d0s
 It will be the EXACT same when these new changes are implimented, only less choices will be made overall and the 'customization' will be a difference of unessential, normally meaningless talents.

Most of the talents they previewed were significant choices, even if there are only 6 to make that far better than anything WoW has had, even before they have started testing. The fact is spending even 61 points isn't more choice if 90% of those are talents everyone else takes too.

 

Six choices over 90 levels, GC is truly continuing to dumb down the game. There once was a time when OMG hybred specs existed. Players actually had fun figuring out interesting specs. In MoP even a blind monkey will not be able to make a bad choice. 

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/02/11 5:52:04 AM#126
Originally posted by catlana

There once was a time when OMG hybred specs existed. 

Yeah and all but 2-3 of them where garbage. Like I said before if you're the type that just like spending points with little actual thought or care then obviously you won't like a system of this style. For others that want an optimal character that they can meaningfully tweak, this system does offer that.

Also not being able to make a wrong choice is good in this case because it should mean ALL the talents are good. Personally I don't see how the ability to make a terrible character makes for a good experience or makes the older systems better. The fact is cookie cutter specs exist for a reason, most players want a good character not an "interesting" (ie Bad) one.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/02/11 8:36:22 AM#127
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by catlana

There once was a time when OMG hybred specs existed. 

Yeah and all but 2-3 of them where garbage. Like I said before if you're the type that just like spending points with little actual thought or care then obviously you won't like a system of this style. For others that want an optimal character that they can meaningfully tweak, this system does offer that.

Also not being able to make a wrong choice is good in this case because it should mean ALL the talents are good. Personally I don't see how the ability to make a terrible character makes for a good experience or makes the older systems better. The fact is cookie cutter specs exist for a reason, most players want a good character not an "interesting" (ie Bad) one.

In a word, NO. This isn't so much about "protecting" people from making "bad" choices, as it is about making it easier for the Dev's to "balance" the game, and make it appeal to the very *lowest* common denominator.  Looking at the proposed talent "choices" its going to end up being EXTREME cookie cutter builds(and a damn few of those at that). Not everyone is interested in the min/max nonsense that raiders worship.  Many of the rest of us have builds that fit our play style, and to hell with raiding. 

Taking choices away from people to "protect" them, is all too typical of a certain mentality that has spread around the world like the plague that it is.  One example of this in terms of the new "talent" system is my sub rogue. I have it set up for extreme burst damage, with some traits from the Assassination and Combat trees to make it more effective in that role.  I'm not going to be able to do anything even close to that in this next system. 

The same applies to the other classes I have an interest in (I have six 85's an 81 and some 60's and 70's).  The idea that less choice is "better" is as I stated, inherent in a certain mentaility that thinks that only the "elite" should be making these choices, and that the peasants should simply follow along and remain silent.  Good luck with that...

 I've no doubt that partly because of the theme (and the Monk class), and the "gotta catch'em all" nonsense, that this next expansion is likely to go over well in Asia, and with a limited number of those outside of it.  The box sales alone will likely cover Blizzards initial costs to produce this. But I suspect that many will be like I am. Disgusted with what Ghostcrawler has done to a game that they have loved for years, and take their time and money to another game.  Only time will tell how this works out. 

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/02/11 12:05:19 PM#128
Originally posted by Wraithone

In a word, NO. 

That was a lot of words used to say absolutely nothing.

The only coherent point was that Sub rogues lose out in this system, which is true but not for any of the reasons you stated. I hardly see how you can spec for "extreme burst damage" in the low teirs of combat either, which just futher undermines your ranting. If you had looked at the info in detail you would be aware that many of the current passive talents will be part of the spec you choose or simply class passives, so no Sub won't lose much beyond utility.

As for the rest of your ranting, if you really think that the themes of this expansion will only be popular in Asia you are quite frankly a complete fool.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11/02/11 2:48:17 PM#129
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Wraithone

In a word, NO. 

That was a lot of words used to say absolutely nothing.

The only coherent point was that Sub rogues lose out in this system, which is true but not for any of the reasons you stated. I hardly see how you can spec for "extreme burst damage" in the low teirs of combat either, which just futher undermines your ranting. If you had looked at the info in detail you would be aware that many of the current passive talents will be part of the spec you choose or simply class passives, so no Sub won't lose much beyond utility.

As for the rest of your ranting, if you really think that the themes of this expansion will only be popular in Asia you are quite frankly a complete fool.

Believe what you wish.  The facts remain the facts, no matter if you comprehend them or not.  Its obvious that this new "talent" system isn't designed to make the classes or game more FUN for the majority of the *current* players. Which is a classic symptom of the Ghostcrawler Syndrome. 

If you had bothered to examine the details of the current rogue tree (sub especially) you would have seen that its almost all focused on burst damage.   That has very great utility in PvP and solo PvE (most fights are over in 2-3 seconds or less). 

As for the other, I clearly stated that it would be popular in Asia and with some others outside of that region. If one bothers to look at WoW's player demographics, it would be obvious that Blizzard could lose all of their NA and European players and still have millions and millions of players.

As for the rest, that too is obvious if one bothers to examine the mentaility I spoke of, and its spread over the last generation or so. Choice is a very human activity, and is to be encouraged when ever possible. 

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/02/11 3:03:52 PM#130
Originally posted by Wraithone

The facts remain the facts, no matter if you comprehend them or not. 

Facts? All you have is poorly thought out ranting and waffling.

  User Deleted
11/02/11 3:17:51 PM#131

Do you really think blizzard is stupid. this is all leading up to a diablo 3 type AH in WOW. and possibly free to play. they're not gonna fire the guy they told to make this expansion, and prepare the way for in-game microtrans for the little kiddies who will play it.

This dude got hired to make it the way they wanted it made. MoP is on purpose and with good reasons since GW2 and TOR are going to North american tag team blizz. plus even though i'm a notorius hater and wrathbaby, i don't think they will fail. most of your comrades are already coming around to the blizz plan.

  User Deleted
11/02/11 3:49:40 PM#132

Someone needed "taken out back" around ToC release.

 

So...

  catlana

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 1684

Playing GW2, ToR, PoE
Played AoC, Aion, DDO, EQ2, CoH, Rift, TERA, WAR, WoW

11/03/11 12:47:58 PM#133
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Wraithone

In a word, NO. 

That was a lot of words used to say absolutely nothing.

The only coherent point was that Sub rogues lose out in this system, which is true but not for any of the reasons you stated. I hardly see how you can spec for "extreme burst damage" in the low teirs of combat either, which just futher undermines your ranting. If you had looked at the info in detail you would be aware that many of the current passive talents will be part of the spec you choose or simply class passives, so no Sub won't lose much beyond utility.

As for the rest of your ranting, if you really think that the themes of this expansion will only be popular in Asia you are quite frankly a complete fool.

Believe what you wish.  The facts remain the facts, no matter if you comprehend them or not.  Its obvious that this new "talent" system isn't designed to make the classes or game more FUN for the majority of the *current* players. Which is a classic symptom of the Ghostcrawler Syndrome. 

If you had bothered to examine the details of the current rogue tree (sub especially) you would have seen that its almost all focused on burst damage.   That has very great utility in PvP and solo PvE (most fights are over in 2-3 seconds or less). 

As for the other, I clearly stated that it would be popular in Asia and with some others outside of that region. If one bothers to look at WoW's player demographics, it would be obvious that Blizzard could lose all of their NA and European players and still have millions and millions of players.

As for the rest, that too is obvious if one bothers to examine the mentaility I spoke of, and its spread over the last generation or so. Choice is a very human activity, and is to be encouraged when ever possible. 

I would not worry about fanboi that does not even spend anytime defending his positions. MoP simply continues the elimination of choice out of WoW. Some players will be perfectly fine with not thinking (a great example in this thread). On the other hand, some other players want choice and decision making and so will move on from WoW.  

  Joshua69

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/06
Posts: 954

It''s not the fall that kill''s you. its the sudden stop at the end....

11/03/11 12:50:00 PM#134

I just want to play a friggen Panda

  umcorian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/06/11
Posts: 354

11/03/11 12:52:58 PM#135

I voted yes, but it's too early to tell for sure. Let's see how many active subs WoW has 6 months after MOP and compare it to now... then decide for sure. 

  namelessbob

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/04
Posts: 1512

"The internet is a series of tubes."
-Ted Stevens

11/03/11 4:22:27 PM#136

Should have been fired long long before MOP honestly. In my opinion he has cost Blizzard a lot more money than he has brought in.

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

11/05/11 4:44:38 PM#137
Originally posted by catlana

I would not worry about fanboi that does not even spend anytime defending his positions. 

Haha! Posts packed with so much irony never cease to amuse me.

I dont see why I should repeat myself because people like you like to post baseless nosense without even looking at previous posts. I suppose when all your here to do it rant and make snide comments it doesnt really matter what others post.

Oh and making backhand insults doesn't qualify as backing up an opinion.

  User Deleted
11/05/11 11:15:44 PM#138
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by catlana

There once was a time when OMG hybred specs existed. 

Yeah and all but 2-3 of them where garbage. Like I said before if you're the type that just like spending points with little actual thought or care then obviously you won't like a system of this style. For others that want an optimal character that they can meaningfully tweak, this system does offer that.

Also not being able to make a wrong choice is good in this case because it should mean ALL the talents are good. Personally I don't see how the ability to make a terrible character makes for a good experience or makes the older systems better. The fact is cookie cutter specs exist for a reason, most players want a good character not an "interesting" (ie Bad) one.

In the previous system(cata), you would be hard pressed to make wrong choices either.  To the majority, it was very easy to pick out the right talents without following a guide.  That's still the same looking at the preview.  You'll just want multiple from some tiers and none from others.  Which, is a downgrade.  As said before, in some hybrids, tiers are for one spec almost exclusively.  When all three choices are worse than a second choice in another tier, it's a bad design.  It's not equally poorly built for all classes, but some are big problems.  Will they change that?  Probably not.

People want more meaninful choices.  They want choices that matter and can result in good specs.  Blizzard won't ever do that though.  It would lead to more viables specs for them to try and balance.  Which, they are horrible at even with so few viable choices.  These new "trees" aren't trees.  You aren't really gaining any choice because the #1 talent for you in them is #1.  To choose utility is to underperform in your specified role.  It's just merely the illusion of choice you are seeing.

There was very little choice in the previous trees.  There is little to no choice in these systems either.  Little is lost, but NOTHING is gained.  It's a small step backwards.

  User Deleted
11/05/11 11:23:22 PM#139
Originally posted by Razeron

Someone needed "taken out back" around ToC release.

 

So...

His adjacent blame reallocation skills must be godly.

  Faelsun

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/07
Posts: 482

11/06/11 1:04:09 AM#140

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8190/289704-199492-superman-prime.jpg

That picture above is the way I feel about Ghostcrawler. 

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