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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Question about mirrored classes

20 posts found
  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/24/11 3:14:04 PM#1

I wondered to what degree the mirrored classes share functionalities but also effectivity in each given role. Can anyone who has played the game at a tradeshow, or maybe read some dev quotes shed some light on this?

In my particular interest are Agent Operatives and Smuggler Scoundrels; I read that you can play Operatives very much like rogues in WOW: not relying on cover and your gun much and fighting up close and personal.

Is the Scoundrel just as effective when specced for this close range, stealth based role? Or do their differences in skills and mechanics ask for a different approach?

 

  gaou

Keeper of the Archives

Joined: 12/04/09
Posts: 1962

10/24/11 3:58:48 PM#2
Originally posted by DarkPony

I wondered to what degree the mirrored classes share functionalities but also effectivity in each given role. Can anyone who has played the game at a tradeshow, or maybe read some dev quotes shed some light on this?

In my particular interest are Agent Operatives and Smuggler Scoundrels; I read that you can play Operatives very much like rogues in WOW: not relying on cover and your gun much and fighting up close and personal.

Is the Scoundrel just as effective when specced for this close range, stealth based role? Or do their differences in skills and mechanics ask for a different approach?

 

sorry pony, i can't think of any quotes that would help you off the top of my head.  nor can i think really of anyone that has played a scroundrel and done a write-up but ill go through my booksmarks and see what i can find(i know of atleast 1 or 2 write-ups about playing operative in pvp).  however while classes each seem to have their own distinct thing to make them seem somewhat different, they are for the most part similar in their skills.

 

and lets be honest, smugglers are OP since they get the nut kick. ;)

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/24/11 4:01:38 PM#3
Originally posted by gaou
Originally posted by DarkPony

I wondered to what degree the mirrored classes share functionalities but also effectivity in each given role. Can anyone who has played the game at a tradeshow, or maybe read some dev quotes shed some light on this?

In my particular interest are Agent Operatives and Smuggler Scoundrels; I read that you can play Operatives very much like rogues in WOW: not relying on cover and your gun much and fighting up close and personal.

Is the Scoundrel just as effective when specced for this close range, stealth based role? Or do their differences in skills and mechanics ask for a different approach?

 

sorry pony, i can't think of any quotes that would help you off the top of my head.  nor can i think really of anyone that has played a scroundrel and done a write-up but ill go through my booksmarks and see what i can find(i know of atleast 1 or 2 write-ups about playing operative in pvp).  however while classes each seem to have their own distinct thing to make them seem somewhat different, they are for the most part similar in their skills.

 

and lets be honest, smugglers are OP since they get the nut kick. ;)

Hehe, true that. Thanks for your answer anyway.

Might make me roll republic afterall but don't quote me on that.

 

  User Deleted
10/24/11 4:04:34 PM#4
Originally posted by DarkPony

I wondered to what degree the mirrored classes share functionalities but also effectivity in each given role. Can anyone who has played the game at a tradeshow, or maybe read some dev quotes shed some light on this?

In my particular interest are Agent Operatives and Smuggler Scoundrels; I read that you can play Operatives very much like rogues in WOW: not relying on cover and your gun much and fighting up close and personal.

Is the Scoundrel just as effective when specced for this close range, stealth based role? Or do their differences in skills and mechanics ask for a different approach?

 

Don't know but let me take the opportunity to say that the game has done an excellent job giving and keeping information to be revealed before and during the game; theres plenty enough to know now and plenty to know about later.

  gobla

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1405

C'est la vie.

10/24/11 4:08:38 PM#5

I recall reading somewhere about the scoundrel having a scattergun option for speccing.

Not sure if it's actually melee range but it does sound like that would be something to use near point-blank ranges for high burst DPS. Even with blasters and lightsabres a shotgun to the face should still be pretty dang effective.

But this is all just based on what I remember from interviews and such, don't have any actual concrete information.

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  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/24/11 4:13:49 PM#6
Originally posted by gobla

I recall reading somewhere about the scoundrel having a scattergun option for speccing.

Not sure if it's actually melee range but it does sound like that would be something to use near point-blank ranges for high burst DPS. Even with blasters and lightsabres a shotgun to the face should still be pretty dang effective.

But this is all just based on what I remember from interviews and such, don't have any actual concrete information.

Yeah, but I think those gun skills are in the shared tree, and this build would be using shiv abilities from the concealment tree mostly.

Which brings me to another question: Is that Shiv an actual item in game with a wide variety in choice of models and stats or is it just a skill related thingy and part of the animation? (Seeing how smugglers do the same stuff but with their bare fists and feet).

 

  gaou

Keeper of the Archives

Joined: 12/04/09
Posts: 1962

10/24/11 4:48:06 PM#7
Originally posted by DarkPony
Originally posted by gobla

I recall reading somewhere about the scoundrel having a scattergun option for speccing.

Not sure if it's actually melee range but it does sound like that would be something to use near point-blank ranges for high burst DPS. Even with blasters and lightsabres a shotgun to the face should still be pretty dang effective.

But this is all just based on what I remember from interviews and such, don't have any actual concrete information.

Yeah, but I think those gun skills are in the shared tree, and this build would be using shiv abilities from the concealment tree mostly.

Which brings me to another question: Is that Shiv an actual item in game with a wide variety in choice of models and stats or is it just a skill related thingy and part of the animation? (Seeing how smugglers do the same stuff but with their bare fists and feet).

 

the agent's shiv(or energy blade) is an actual item that goes into his secondary weapon slot but you don't see him carrying it around.  you only see it when you use a skill for it.  and don't know if this is still in, but depending how you place your points for the agent, he can get a skill that has him use 2 shivs.  a picture of it was seen in a pc gamer article.  as for varying looks, i don't think it has any.  the animation is so fast for it you wouldn't likely notice any differences.

 

as for the smuggler, his secondary weapon slot is the scatter gun and is part of the scoundrel tree like shiv for agent

http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/advanced-classes

Scoundrel

In addition to his trusty blaster, the Scoundrel packs a stealth belt, a scattergun and a med pack--everything he needs to get in, knock the enemy for a loop and get out alive.

Scrapper

Focuses on using stealth and the scatter gun to sneak in, take out the enemy, and get out.

 

the scattergun is suppose to be kinda like a shotgun

 

as for finding anything about scoundrels, can't find much.  most of the time at conventions, when available they have been specced to be healers, such as taral v demos at pax east.

 

best bet you would be to try and find impressions from the fansite summit i think

and here is an operative one if interested:

http://darthhater.com/2011/05/05/fan-site-summit-pvp-impressions/

http://darthhater.com/2011/06/15/e3-2011-impressions/

this has a bit on scoundrel(again healer though)

http://exvotos.com/the-13th-warrior

 

heres some quotes reagrding the scoundrel though:

MMORPG.com:

The Gunslinger class for the Smuggler is easy to figure out, but what about the Scoundrel? It seems like a very gadget heavy class, what skills will players be able to use?

Georg Zoeller:

Gadgets, explosives, a trusty scatter gun and an urge to avoid a fair fight whenever possible is what the Scoundrel is all about. Some examples available to the player via the skill trees:

  • Terminate, a scattergun ability that deals extreme damage to wounded enemies, usually finishing them off.
  • Shrapnel Bomb, a crude, thrown explosive device causing explosion damage and bleeding wounds to all targets.
  • Slow Release Medpack, an over-time medical pack applicable to smuggler and allies alike.
  • Decloaking Screen, a modification to the stealth field generator that projects a temporary protective screen around the Scoundrel whenever they exit stealth.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/5273/Advanced-Classes-Interview.html

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110408

While we demonstrated a healing-focused Scoundrel at PAX East (watch our Developer Walkthrough for details), the scatter gun-centric ‘Scrapper’ skill tree has not been forgotten. Recently, we made several updates aimed at making the Advanced Class more viable in PvP.

 

Originally posted by DarkPony

Might make me roll republic afterall but don't quote me on that.

so then i should change my sig? ;P

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1606

10/24/11 8:52:22 PM#8
Originally posted by DarkPony

In my particular interest are Agent Operatives and Smuggler Scoundrels; I read that you can play Operatives very much like rogues in WOW: not relying on cover and your gun much and fighting up close and personal.

Mirrors are virtually identical. Sounds and some animation differences may assist in making them feel different and certainly story arcs when it comes to rp but read one power and expect the other to have the exact same when it comes to numbers (minus a very few alterations).

Operative/scoundrel each have their healing tree but lets throw that out for a moment. They each have a shared tree as well with the ranged AC variant. That tree is more a medium blaster ranged tree designed as a fill gap between melee ranged and long ranged trees. It has some skirmish elements so if you are a sniper and spec more this tree you won't need cover quite as much as a pure sniper. The ultimate tree for either is the melee tree (also the stealth tree) with backstab/subtlety style rogue melee and is the least depedent cover spec of them all. You don't quite get enough melee powers though to use them all the time. They tend to have restrictions on use and still a hybrid med range/melee tree.

Is the Scoundrel just as effective when specced for this close range, stealth based role? Or do their differences in skills and mechanics ask for a different approach?

If an operative/smuggler both spec the shared tree they will have the same results on certain base powers but each AC also gets an equal amount of completely new powers unique to the AC. So even if using the exact same talents they will play very differently. Base powers give the core class their basic ranged, melee and support skills but each AC offers several far more specialized powers that can't be duplicated. Both AC's could spec to at best be 50% similar or talent for about a 95% total difference. AC's are damn near totally different classes in most cases. Also if spec'd melee/stealth tree (I know the smuggler has scattergun etc but it is the same as the agent's melee but without looking melee) you gain more melee abilities but still must rely on the more skirmish like medium ranged blaster abilites. It isn't a pure melee tree but certainly where the spike damage for the class comes from from that AC mirror. When watching vids of snipers and the "Oh Wow!" damage is shown, the melee component in scoundrel/operative is where you see that in those AC's.

 

As much as I can give without too much detail.  Hope it helps some.

You stay sassy!

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1606

10/24/11 9:09:02 PM#9
Originally posted by DarkPony

Which brings me to another question: Is that Shiv an actual item in game with a wide variety in choice of models and stats or is it just a skill related thingy and part of the animation? (Seeing how smugglers do the same stuff but with their bare fists and feet).

 

Ok I might be wrong here so be aware of this.

At least for the scoundrel/agent you can change out your blade like any weapon in your off hand slot. Other than gaining better stats I am not actually sure if it directly effects your melee powers dps or simply boosts them by the additional stats (I actually forgot to test this lol). That being said you can still keep your eye out for your next uber new melee weapon (also no idea if there are mod variants either) and it at least feels like it's real.

Not sure either if the base animation changes either. Hopefully smuggler vids come out that shows this as the agent is damn hard to see as you only ever see the knife during the attack animation and it's very fast complicated firther by knives sort of looking similar for the most part lol.

I have no information on how the offhand changes when spec'd the ranged AC.

You stay sassy!

  AzurePrower

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/18/07
Posts: 1501

Ahh yes, "Hypers." The people who praise and hate every MMORPG... We've dismissed that claim.

10/24/11 11:55:08 PM#10

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328168/SWTOR-Talent-Calc.html

This thread just down the page shows a talent calculator.

I had a look over it. The stealth skills for Scoundrel increase your blaster damage.

Had a look at Imperial agent. The stealth skills for Operative increase your melee weapon damage.


  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/25/11 1:30:06 AM#11

Thanks everyone for the answers, really helpful <3

Seems there still is quite some subtle differences in mirrored classes. So it wouldn't surprise me if one AC would be more effective as its mirrored one in any specific role. Hopefully they got this balancing act right. We'll only know when the NDA drops and long term / max level testers will have their say, I guess.

Lol @ your sig, Gaou :)

 

 

  SafariS

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 59

10/25/11 4:30:11 AM#12

There's no doubt the Smuggler is a "rogue" - he acts like one. For example :

Back Blast - Ambushes an enemy for 499 - 516 damage. Must be behind the target to use. The ability is instant and has a max range of 10m. Energy cost: 45

Flash Grenade - Instantly throw a flash grenade at all nearby targets (within 5m) that blinds them for 8 seconds. If the target is damaged, the blind effect ends. Affects max 6 targets. Energy cost: 30. Cooldown: 60 sec. Range: 3m

Sounds familiary right ? :P

Source : http://www.oldrepublic.net/130-smuggler-guide.html

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/25/11 4:35:10 AM#13
Originally posted by SafariS

There's no doubt the Smuggler is a "rogue" - he acts like one. For example :

Back Blast - Ambushes an enemy for 499 - 516 damage. Must be behind the target to use. The ability is instant and has a max range of 10m. Energy cost: 45

Flash Grenade - Instantly throw a flash grenade at all nearby targets (within 5m) that blinds them for 8 seconds. If the target is damaged, the blind effect ends. Affects max 6 targets. Energy cost: 30. Cooldown: 60 sec. Range: 3m

Sounds familiary right ? :P

Source : http://www.oldrepublic.net/130-smuggler-guide.html

Yeah, sure does. That 10 meter range is interesting, might make it a little easier to play compared to an Agent's backstabbing, positioning wise.

  SafariS

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 59

10/25/11 8:08:23 AM#14

Yep, and the "Blind" is great ... sorry wanted to say the "mass Blind" :)

Can't talk for anyone, but atleast for me, it seems liek Smuggler will be one of the best classes for PvP.

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

 
OP  10/25/11 9:17:32 AM#15
Originally posted by SafariS

Yep, and the "Blind" is great ... sorry wanted to say the "mass Blind" :)

Can't talk for anyone, but atleast for me, it seems liek Smuggler will be one of the best classes for PvP.

*nods*

p.s. I am not much of a ganker of noobs but the idea of "Dirty Kicking" a low leveled player, or someone at low health and killing him with just that ability would be too tempting to resist haha :)

 

  Cannyone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/10
Posts: 264

10/25/11 10:34:30 AM#16

"and lets be honest, smugglers are OP since they get the nut kick. ;)"

Please don't say that!  Because Even though you're obviously joking, lots of people are going to take you seriously.  That particular "skill" is signature, and its a "stun" ability so it falls under the CC resistance thing for PvP.  But you can bet that some of the jealous and petty will insist on getting it pulled if they can.

Now, on Topic - I really don't think the Scoundrel DPS Role plays the same as the IA's Operative Role.  As in, Operative is mostly melee (a Vibro-Knife), and Scoundrel is mixed between the "kick", some punches, and a pistol whip skill with pistol work thrown in.  And Honestly, from what I've heard, the Operative is going to do more damage in PvP.  But we'll have to see...

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1606

10/25/11 5:18:03 PM#17
Originally posted by Cannyone

"and lets be honest, smugglers are OP since they get the nut kick. ;)"

Please don't say that!  Because Even though you're obviously joking, lots of people are going to take you seriously.  That particular "skill" is signature, and its a "stun" ability so it falls under the CC resistance thing for PvP.  But you can bet that some of the jealous and petty will insist on getting it pulled if they can.

Now, on Topic - I really don't think the Scoundrel DPS Role plays the same as the IA's Operative Role.  As in, Operative is mostly melee (a Vibro-Knife), and Scoundrel is mixed between the "kick", some punches, and a pistol whip skill with pistol work thrown in.  And Honestly, from what I've heard, the Operative is going to do more damage in PvP.  But we'll have to see...

Unless talents are truly different (a couple talent calcs I have seen have both differed from the last beta build I have seen) there  isn't much difference between the base skills. Smuggler kicks you in the nuts but the agent varient is exactly the same but with a different animation.

We may see some subtle differences but these mirrors for the most part are seriously "mirrored". I have heard however a very few signature attacks for some classes that seem to be reported as being better than the other mirror. Really hard to say though as players tend not to be very subjective when whining on boards.

You stay sassy!

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1747

"Go inside. Tell them you are the Avatar."

10/26/11 8:24:13 AM#18

As far as is known, mirrored classes are exactly the same in terms of function, abilities, mechanics and skill trees. The things that set them apart is different animations, sounds and fluff text of the abilities. And of course the stories are completely different.

Currently playing: FTL, Hearthstone and Reaper of Souls.
Eagerly anticipating: Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2, Warlords of Draenor and Star Citizen.

  Robsolf

Elite Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 3962

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

10/26/11 8:57:46 AM#19
Originally posted by Axxar

As far as is known, mirrored classes are exactly the same in terms of function, abilities, mechanics and skill trees. The things that set them apart is different animations, sounds and fluff text of the abilities. And of course the stories are completely different.

That must mean that very little is known, then.

  Cannyone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/10
Posts: 264

10/27/11 1:52:10 AM#20
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Cannyone

"and lets be honest, smugglers are OP since they get the nut kick. ;)"

Please don't say that!  Because Even though you're obviously joking, lots of people are going to take you seriously.  That particular "skill" is signature, and its a "stun" ability so it falls under the CC resistance thing for PvP.  But you can bet that some of the jealous and petty will insist on getting it pulled if they can.

Now, on Topic - I really don't think the Scoundrel DPS Role plays the same as the IA's Operative Role.  As in, Operative is mostly melee (a Vibro-Knife), and Scoundrel is mixed between the "kick", some punches, and a pistol whip skill with pistol work thrown in.  And Honestly, from what I've heard, the Operative is going to do more damage in PvP.  But we'll have to see...

Unless talents are truly different (a couple talent calcs I have seen have both differed from the last beta build I have seen) there  isn't much difference between the base skills. Smuggler kicks you in the nuts but the agent varient is exactly the same but with a different animation.

We may see some subtle differences but these mirrors for the most part are seriously "mirrored". I have heard however a very few signature attacks for some classes that seem to be reported as being better than the other mirror. Really hard to say though as players tend not to be very subjective when whining on boards.


I guess I agree with you... It's just that I'm suggesting that while the stealth and Damage are the same.  The actually skills used at not.  In other words the Operative won't have the "dirty kick" but he'll have something that works the same.  The Operative won't have a shotgun he pulls on you, but he'll have something that does the same damage.  If that's what you're suggesting.  Then, I absolutely agree with you!

Still from what I've heard... And its pretty much "pure rumor".  The Operative is actually more OP than the Scrapper.  Though I fully understand that information was pretty subjective.  (I hope you ment "Objective" in your comment about the boards.)