Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

That is not character progression...

...that is gear progression.

Correct spelling Nazi.

OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.

Correct spelling Nazi?

And no, it is not the same thing in the least.  Are you kidding?  Character Progression is not Gear Progression.  Gear Progression is not Character Progression.  They are not the same thing in the least.

The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...

...but regardless of that particular issue:

GEAR

PROGRESSION

IS NOT

CHARACTER

PROGRESSION!

GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING!  THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!

No, it does not.

Thank you for mentioning "RAID" in your reply, because that is where this pathetic misconception has originated - with raiders.  It is the reason that we have ended up with so many crappy game lobby games instead of actual MMORPGs.

Let's use Tom and Jerry for an example.

We give both Tom and Jerry each a stick to beat the other with.  Through character progression, they would become better at beating each other with that stick.  The character actually progresses.

With gear progression, we'll give them better and better sticks.  They never actually get better themselves.  Take the better stick away.  Tada - they have stagnated.

Say we have Tom following a character progression path.  We have Jerry following a gear progression path.  We'll go with their "stats" being the same as they progress.  Now give Jerry Tom's stick and Tom Jerry's stick.  Jerry's going to be a bloody smudge on the ground.

Gear Progression, Endgame, Carrot Chasing, etc - is character stagnation in most games.

It alienates many old MMORPG players and the new MMOGL players are never satisfied.

Most MMOs these days are populated by powergaming munchkins suffering equal parts OCD and ADHD.

It is funny that you want to separate Character Progression and Wealth Progression (generally tactical/strategic gaming).  It is abnormal - in a sense.  Generally speaking, there is a progression from playing the more tactical role to playing the more strategic role.

Heroes go about their adventures - growing in power - eventually with that power comes additional responsibility - which often translates into taking on a more strategic role than a tactical role.

Games such as Shadowbane and EVE Online come to mind with this.  It has been represented countless times in fiction, as the heroes or groups of heroes find themselves in charge of armies, kingdoms, and the rest.  Often, those heroes that have found themselves in those strategic roles with sneak off for some tactical adventures...they miss it.

There should be no reason to separate the two...in that sense.

No doubt though, there are players that prefer a FPS game to a RTS game (and vice versa).  There are players that enjoy both.  A game that could attract both, satisfy both, etc - well, how exactly would that be a bad thing?

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

Wealth progression:  You own land, castles, dungeons, a business, and NPC's to do your bidding.

 

This is an either/or question, you can't have both.  You cannot have both character progression and wealth progression.  Eve Online has this and those that have been subscribed longer shut everyone else out of the high end content, and they hoard everything for themselves.

But if there is no character "progression", it would be as if everyone is the same level and equally killable, if you can get past their NPC guards or if you catch a wealthy character out in the open.

 That highlighted part of a business hmmm that is what a crafter is a business man and producer of good. So still fits into that grouping as per what you placed into the definition. So you could actually read what you said and actually think before getting snotty abotu it. Also owning things is not wealth it is status you are looking for. IT would be better to label that as Status not wealth, sicne what you liste except for that one there is status symbols not really wealth. I could be wealthy with millions in savings but have nothing of what you list, or i could be poor with having gotten all you listed. Yet it is still characetr progression both ways you look at it. YOu gain things you progress yoru characetr and his/her goal, you progress in gear your character's ower grows progressing further into the game. I actually played game most likely longer then you have.

Using the tired and retarded insult of wow-this or that is pretty childish and shows you can not even think to look at your own questiona dn post in a way that is differnet from what you intended, after asking for others to give what they thought.

I tend to like the latter. Dungeon Empires, Grepolis, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima and a lot of the other persistent browser-based games (PBBG) are really nice diversions. 

More CMS, RTS and SLG in my MMO, plz!

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Biggus99

Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.

Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression?  In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it.  How else can it be worded?

Character progression encompasses everything from fun talent/mastery/speccing systems, ability gains, and gear, to how your character's role in the story of the game advances (Ie. slowly becoming a famous heroic figure.)  It's all about giving the player a sense of accomplishment, improvement and power.  By your wording, you reduced this complex category to 1 single aspect, the one that is very frequently associated with vanity, macho egoism and superficiality.  You most definitely did put a negative twist on that category.  Heck, you even had me, a lover of character progression systems going all the way back to the days of the super nintendo Final Fantasies, thinking, "Well gee, that doesn't sound like very much fun."

Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing:  you get better stats, that's it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

I tend to like the latter. Dungeon Empires, Grepolis, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima and a lot of the other persistent browser-based games (PBBG) are really nice diversions. 

More CMS, RTS and SLG in my MMO, plz!

 

Personally, I think what prevents this with most games is that first part of the acronym - MASSIVELY.  There are simply too many players occupying what tend to be smallish worlds for us to have that level of metagaming.  Where there are so many heroes and such...

...which I know is an odd thing to say, considering how barren many players find the worlds to be outside of the cities.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Biggus99

Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.

Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression?  In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it.  How else can it be worded?

Character progression encompasses everything from fun talent/mastery/speccing systems, ability gains, and gear, to how your character's role in the story of the game advances (Ie. slowly becoming a famous heroic figure.)  It's all about giving the player a sense of accomplishment, improvement and power.  By your wording, you reduced this complex category to 1 single aspect, the one that is very frequently associated with vanity, macho egoism and superficiality.  You most definitely did put a negative twist on that category.  Heck, you even had me, a lover of character progression systems going all the way back to the days of the super nintendo Final Fantasies, thinking, "Well gee, that doesn't sound like very much fun."

Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing:  you get better stats, that's it.

Tony Stewart in a NASCAR Camry.

You in a NASCAR Camry.

You've both got the same "gear".

Tony will smoke you.

* * * * *

Tony Stewart in a Corolla.

You in a NASCAR Camry.

You've got the better car.

Tony will still smoke you.

* * * * *

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Alternate Advancement is character progression - no gear involved.  The ability to unlock additional skill paths/abilities is character progression - no gear involved.  Even the ability to utilize additional types of gear could be considered character progression - where there may not actually be gear progression involved.

MMOs suffer from character stagnation at the expense of gear progression.  Chase that better sword - it's better!  You're the same, but with the sword you're better!  It's no wonder that Apple has done so well - here's the iPhone 9000, you've got to buy it - it's better than the iPhone 8999 that you bought earlier today!  That insane mindset has infected MMORPGs with all the carrot chasing going on.

Originally posted by Nerf09

GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING!  THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!

Wealth progresison is pretty damn similar to character progression too.

In Terraria wealth progression basically *is* character progression.

Should we call off this entire thread on account of not enough logic or maturity to hold a reasonable discussion?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Wealth progresison is pretty damn similar to character progression too.

In Terraria wealth progression basically *is* character progression.

No they are 2 completely different things.  Did you read the original post?  And what the hell is Terraria, could you possibly come up with a more unknown title?

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing:  you get better stats, that's it.

Tony Stewart in a NASCAR Camry.

You in a NASCAR Camry.

You've both got the same "gear".

Tony will smoke you.

* * * * *

Tony Stewart in a Corolla.

You in a NASCAR Camry.

You've got the better car.

Tony will still smoke you.

* * * * *

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Alternate Advancement is character progression - no gear involved.  The ability to unlock additional skill paths/abilities is character progression - no gear involved.  Even the ability to utilize additional types of gear could be considered character progression - where there may not actually be gear progression involved.

MMOs suffer from character stagnation at the expense of gear progression.  Chase that better sword - it's better!  You're the same, but with the sword you're better!  It's no wonder that Apple has done so well - here's the iPhone 9000, you've got to buy it - it's better than the iPhone 8999 that you bought earlier today!  That insane mindset has infected MMORPGs with all the carrot chasing going on.

What you are using as an example is player skill progression, not character progression. If you are right, that means if I drive more I will eventually be as good as him, which isn't the case here.

Character progression ingame doesn't pose any challenge because it acts as a guideline as to how player is progression through the game, you are expected to reach the end of the progression, where gear progression provides a grind challenge which comes after you hit the top of the character progression (lets be honest here, you can pretty much use quest gear for 90% MMORPG till endgame, if that is what people call gear progression, I will quit all my MMO game right now), thus MMO doesn't really pose a real challenge other than a game for grinding patience and numerical speadsheet skills.

As long as there are simple character progression like levels and combat with pure numerical factors such as aggro and dps to dictate the outcome of battles, you can expect gear progression to be just right there with it. Gear progression is a manifestation of MMORPG players obessions with numbers, they blame lag and want a combat system where they can 'plan' their strategy, planning is 50% of strategy, the other half is how you deal with surprise events, which is what MMO players call twitch. As much players don't want to admit it, twitch is a huge factor in any realistic and competitive combat, pure numbers can't do everything.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing, both involve stat progression and is the same thing.  A  hitpoint is a hitpoint.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.

 

Oh so you're one of those types who think gaining 50 hitpoitns from leveling up is totally different than gaining 50 hitpoints from a piece of gear.   I see.  Must be 2 types of hitpoints.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing, both involve stat progression and is the same thing.  A  hitpoint is a hitpoint.

A continent has some cities and a country in that continent has some cities, but just because they both have cities doesnt make them the same thing.

Just because character progression and gear progression both have stats is irrelevant, character progression is much more than stats while gear progression basically boils down to stats and looks.

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing, both involve stat progression and is the same thing.  A  hitpoint is a hitpoint.

A continent has some cities and a country in that continent has some cities, but just because they both have cities doesnt make them the same thing.

Just because character progression and gear progression both have stats is irrelevant, character progression is much more than stats while gear progression basically boils down to stats and looks.

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing.

I chose the first choice, couldn't care less about "wealth".

[edit as the original question has been altered]

One could look at it like:

which would you prefer?

1, to be a hero doing great deeds, fighting through swaths of your enemies, making tactcial decisions to win the battle or

2, spending time watching an auction house and looking at prices go up and down and working on your spread sheets.

or

3, picking what is suitable for your style and being able to follow what you enjoy.

But there was no 3 so I picked 1.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Character Progression and Gear Progression are not the same thing.  Both can involve stat progression, but they are not the same thing.

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing, both involve stat progression and is the same thing.  A  hitpoint is a hitpoint.

Both have the same result.....

But they are not the same.... character progression involves much more then just stat progression (skills/traits and such)

When you reach the point of a game where character progression ends... and there is only gear progression then many people start loosing interest in those games.  AA systems like EQ and EQ2 have allow you to continue character progression at max level...

And then there are some games that have a mix of both in that they let you level up and progress your gear... But in the end its still gear progression...

Obviously its games like WoW that want people to beleive that they are the same thing, but thats to cover up one of the biggest flaws in WoW.

Originally posted by Nerf09

 

Character progression and gear progression are the same thing.

All water is a compound but not all compounds are water...

Your argument is flawless, count me convinced.

/sarcasm.

Back to the original post before it was hijacked by the Gang of Irrelevant Information Bureau (GIIB),

what do you prefer?

-----Character progression (Which also includes gear progression)

Or

------Wealth progression?  (Castles, houses, factories, peons npcs, miner npcs, soldier npcs, dungeons, a business)

Originally posted by Nerf09

Back to the original post before it was hijacked by the Gang of Irrelevant Information Bureau (GIIB),

what do you prefer?

-----Character progression (Which also includes gear progression)

Or

------Wealth progression?  (Castles, houses, factories, peons npcs, miner npcs, soldier npcs, dungeons, a business)

 

How about a good mix of both.....