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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What type of progression would you prefer, character or wealth?

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91 posts found
  SirAgravaine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/23/04
Posts: 72

"From my rotting body flowers shall grow, and I am in them and that is eternity." -Edvard Munch

10/23/11 3:42:31 AM#21
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by ~Oblivion~

 

Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.

One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.

 

 

Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.

 

 

Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.

 

Your first 2 examples are more like wealth progression.  Levels and gear grind are about combat.

As far as your first example, it would negate the need to hire NPC blacksmiths if a player can be sooo much better than NPC's.  A living breathing world needs NPC's going hither and thither, waypoints created by PLAYERS not developers, and destroyable in combat.  Developer NPC's pop right back up and wander hither and thither like zombies and have no function other than to be killed.

 

NPC blacksmiths can still be used in place of the PC, for the making or selling of goods. You'll have to elaborate further on your NPC system, because it intrigues me. I like the idea of player influenced NPC actions, such as: retrieve this, sell here, I will meet you there, go home, etc.

Levels and gear are not actually for combat, but rather for the illusion of advancement of character. The only advancement in combat in MMORPGs that use this progression model are usually skills/abilities and/or combat tactics. Despite changes in level (numbers), and gear (numbers/appearance), combat stays relatively proportional despite the increased values. Changes in level and gear are purely aesthetic and not necessarily functional, unless they tie into other systems (i.e. level requirements, gear requirements) which now locks down parts of the game world to a specific point in progression for a character, which makes a game more linear in design.

All of my examples were character progression models, but they are not as tangible as the standard level/gear model. Knowledge IS character progression, or perhaps more accurately put: player progression, and affects the player's ability within a game, knowledge can be found in the level/gear model. Status is also character progression, as it affects how the character interacts with the game world, and is often exhibited in standard models as well (class lead, guild master, arena champion etc.). Lastly social power is a prevelant aspect of most MMORPGs despite the progression model that is used. EVE online is a great example of its affect on the game world but it can also be seen in games such as WoW. My example of how reputation progresses the character is actually taken directly from SWG. All three of these types of progression exist in current MMO's to some degree but usually alongside an aesthetic progression system that causes unwanted segregation of player populations. Wealth is a more preferable system of segregation as it fluctuates and has a less impacting effect on player interaction.

I believe equipment can be a useful mechanic to display the progression of a character, but only if the equipment's primary change is functionality (i.e. a tool that unlocks new crafting avenues rather than increasing quality) and not aesthetic. Rather than using equipment for progression or advancement however, I believe strategic equipment balance and choice offers a more dynamic system than a linear scaling progression model (early EVE is a good example of this).

Progression should be left more so in the realm of wealth and real world experience than it should be in the game's mechanics (i.e increased damage, crafting quality, material type etc). I like the idea of players no matter their playtime in the game all having the same baseline, and the only advantage they have over one or the other is real experience, reputation, status and perhaps more functinally or tactically sound equipment.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

10/23/11 3:43:29 AM#22

Matthew 16:26

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression.  With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.

As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character.  Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'?  It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.

What?  That's not what you were asking?

Well, then you're asking boring questions.

  User Deleted
10/23/11 3:43:43 AM#23

Character, it should always be about character.

  SirAgravaine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/23/04
Posts: 72

"From my rotting body flowers shall grow, and I am in them and that is eternity." -Edvard Munch

10/23/11 4:02:40 AM#24
Originally posted by Meowhead

Matthew 16:26

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression.  With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.

As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character.  Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'?  It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.

What?  That's not what you were asking?

Well, then you're asking boring questions.

 

I like your take on character progression, but it seems to conflict with the OP's definition of it. Wealth progression should be used realistically, if I have been playing a game 10 years and have not made efforts to amass a fortune then I should not have said fortune. I believe a properly implemented economy would allow a wealth progression model to perfectly compliment a proper character progression model.
  xKingdomx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/10
Posts: 1550

10/23/11 4:13:12 AM#25

Well both of them is fine.

 

Wealth progression is really just another form of character progression tho, since I presume you still control a character.

But the idea sounds much more interesting than just another character glow weapon progression. I'm not a huge fan of glowing weapons, I just prefer cool weapons with no glow, or just shiny instead of some weird glow around it.

 

Persisent housing ftw

How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 6:25:59 AM#26
Originally posted by xKingdomx

Well both of them is fine.

 

Wealth progression is really just another form of character progression tho, since I presume you still control a character.

But the idea sounds much more interesting than just another character glow weapon progression. I'm not a huge fan of glowing weapons, I just prefer cool weapons with no glow, or just shiny instead of some weird glow around it.

 

Persisent housing ftw

It's not the same thing, it's 2 radically different game concepts to the point where it's almost a MMORTS, or a cross between MMORTS and MMORPG.  I think this is the only way to go because character progression totally screws up PVP. 

Look at what's being planned in Guild Wars2, in PVP all characters magically become the same level.  Sounds like a bandaid solution, personally I think the ultimate solution is to get rid of character progression altogether.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 6:28:20 AM#27
Originally posted by Meowhead

Matthew 16:26

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

It's obvious that character progression is far more important than wealth progression.  With more money, you simply become more in danger of solving all problems through money, and not reaching true character depth.

As your character progresses, you get stronger ethical understanding, and a deeper, more complex character.  Who can be interested in a character in a game when your whole being could be summed up with 'He's got a lot of money and he buys things'?  It's obvious that true moral conundrums that question you as a player and cause you to develop your character in unforseen ways will pose a more healthy and meaningful gameplay experience.

What?  That's not what you were asking?

Well, then you're asking boring questions.

There is zero "character" progression in mmorpg's. 

In fact all characters of all classes and all levels are exactly the same, you level up and gain better loot.

But if you had a house and a blacksmith shop that can be burned down by other players I bet you'd develop some "character" real fast, like not shit-talking in general chat.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 6:37:46 AM#28
Originally posted by ~Oblivion~
 

 

NPC blacksmiths can still be used in place of the PC, for the making or selling of goods. You'll have to elaborate further on your NPC system, because it intrigues me. Cross between MMORPG and RTS.  In RTS you give NPC's waypoints, and NPC's chop wood and mine.

  futnatus

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/09
Posts: 194

10/23/11 6:39:43 AM#29

You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest?  Or camping or some other 'strategy'.  When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.

I don't want Character or Wealth based.  I want skill based progression.  I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.

 

A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want.  I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any.  It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix.  Whatever happens it'll be really cool.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 6:43:07 AM#30
Originally posted by futnatus

You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest?  Or camping or some other 'strategy'.  When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.

I don't want Character or Wealth based.  I want skill based progression.  I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.

 

A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want.  I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any.  It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix.  Whatever happens it'll be really cool.

already exists

http://www.savage2.com/en/main.php

If there is no progression at all, then what's the point of a persistant world?

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

10/23/11 6:46:02 AM#31

I'd love to have both....

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  futnatus

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/09
Posts: 194

10/23/11 6:47:04 AM#32
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by futnatus

You know how in an FPS you progress just by having no lag and being actually able to aim + shoot your gun better than the rest?  Or camping or some other 'strategy'.  When no gun really is all that powerful in comparison to others, there are no levels to make you stronger, so all you have is your own skill.

I don't want Character or Wealth based.  I want skill based progression.  I don't care if I don't have some 'level' or 'rank' showing off how far I've gotten, I can show how well I play by playing well.

 

A fantasy game that worked in the actiony format of a shooter, where you swing your sword, blast them spells and avoid the enemy in fast paced combat.. That's what I want.  I know of games like this, I currently don't have access to any.  It can even be fully PvP or PvE or a mix.  Whatever happens it'll be really cool.

already exists

http://www.savage2.com/en/main.php

If there is no progression at all, then what's the point of a persistant world?

I know.

Whether there is one completely depends on the game, and having one as opposed to not makes them quite different, but both can be done well.  I would play whether there was one or not.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 8:34:13 PM#33
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I'd love to have both....

 

You can't have both, it imbalances PVP.  And if there is no PVP or indestructable player owned structures than it suffers from UO disease (player buildings everywhere).  

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

10/23/11 9:01:46 PM#34
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

That is not character progression...

...that is gear progression.

Correct spelling Nazi.

OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.

Correct spelling Nazi?

And no, it is not the same thing in the least.  Are you kidding?  Character Progression is not Gear Progression.  Gear Progression is not Character Progression.  They are not the same thing in the least.

The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...

...but regardless of that particular issue:

GEAR

PROGRESSION

IS NOT

CHARACTER

PROGRESSION!

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 9:12:36 PM#35
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

That is not character progression...

...that is gear progression.

Correct spelling Nazi.

OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.

Correct spelling Nazi?

And no, it is not the same thing in the least.  Are you kidding?  Character Progression is not Gear Progression.  Gear Progression is not Character Progression.  They are not the same thing in the least.

The gist of your question is more of are you a tactical or a strategic player - having very little to do with character progression or wealth progression...

...but regardless of that particular issue:

GEAR

PROGRESSION

IS NOT

CHARACTER

PROGRESSION!

GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING!  THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!

  marinrider

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/06
Posts: 1574

10/23/11 9:14:26 PM#36
Originally posted by Nerf09
 

GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING!  THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!

Woh Caps Lock Queen, cool it.  

 

And no its not the same thing.  Its only the same thing in over simplified games such as WoW.  

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 9:18:06 PM#37
Originally posted by marinrider
Originally posted by Nerf09
 

GEAR PROGRESSION HAS THE SAME EFFECT AS CHARACTER PROGRESSION, IT MIGHT AS WELL BE THE SAME THING!  THINK OF GEAR PROGRESSION AS A SECONDARY LEVEL CAP AT RAID GEAR!

Woh Caps Lock Queen, cool it.  

 

And no its not the same thing.  Its only the same thing in over simplified games such as WoW.  

It's the same thing, and all games play like WOW.  You hit level cap and keep on character progression by doing instances and raids, until you hit the gear cap then complain to devs about there being no content.

 

It's all character progression, you're character and you're character alone, especially since raid gear is *rolls eyes* "bind on equip". 

*rolls eyes and sighs and then looks to the upper right*

  User Deleted
10/23/11 9:19:26 PM#38

Gear can be a part of character progression, in the fact that it makes your characetr progress in power as well as ability. The same is true of wealth since the more noterity the more wealth and the such the more your ccharacetr has rogressed in the game overall. It is a matter of opinion  if gear or wealth is part of character progression, because to tthe raider or crafter the amount of either shows hwo much you have done and come in the game, or hwo far you have prrogressed. I prefer all forms of characetr prgression and story.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/23/11 9:21:56 PM#39
Originally posted by Elricmerren

Gear can be a part of character progression, in the fact that it makes your characetr progress in power as well as ability. The same is true of wealth since the more noterity the more wealth and the such the more your ccharacetr has rogressed in the game overall. It is a matter of opinion  if gear or wealth is part of character progression, because to tthe raider or crafter the amount of either shows hwo much you have done and come in the game, or hwo far you have prrogressed. I prefer all forms of characetr prgression and story.

I guess you missed the part when I said mixing "Real Time Strategy" mechanics. 

Wow, it's so hard to have a theoretical conversation when the only form of MMORPG that exists is WOW-clone and that's all anyone knows, you say, "Wealth" and they assume it means a wealthy WOW character that's a blacksmith with lots of iron and diamonds to play with.

  marinrider

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/06
Posts: 1574

10/23/11 9:24:09 PM#40
Originally posted by Nerf09

It's the same thing, and all games play like WOW.  You hit level cap and keep on character progression by doing instances and raids, until you hit the gear cap then complain to devs about there being no content.

 

It's all character progression, you're character and you're character alone, especially since raid gear is *rolls eyes* "bind on equip". 

*rolls eyes and sighs and then looks to the upper right*

No, there are games with Character progession.  They are the games where what you do affects how strong you are in that area.  Think games like MO, DFO, UO.  They are also games with more useful crafting systems or other systems.  For this one think Vanguard and how it has crafting levels as well as diplo levels and adventuring levels.  WAR also has a form of character progression with its PvP levels, trophys, and its lorebook.  

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