Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

Wealth progression:  You own land, castles, dungeons, a business, and NPC's to do your bidding.

This is an either/or question, you can't have both.  You cannot have both character progression and wealth progression.  Eve Online has this and those that have been subscribed longer shut everyone else out of the high end content, and they hoard everything for themselves.

But if there is no character "progression", it would be as if everyone is the same level and equally killable, if you can get past their NPC guards or if you catch a wealthy character out in the open.

This is another one of my attempts to merge MMORPG and Real Time Strategy.  MMORPG/RTS?   MMORTS/RPG.  Lots of NPC's in RTS with resource gathering (logistics), and strategy, it is called real time "strategy".

I prefer Character progression in this specific case you have described.  Glowing sword and sexy armor > everyone else hating my price gouging business practices.

Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

Originally posted by Biggus99

Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

Eve Online is why combining the two doesn't work correctly.

Why would you say I worded it to make you vote for wealth progression?  In character progression games THEE endgame is getting your glowing sword and armor, that's it.  How else can it be worded?

Wel i am sorry but i would ONLY vote both and i would never use Eve to compare anything ,it is maybe the worst design in this MMO genre.However Character is MORE important after all that is your ROLE PLAYING reason to be in the game,without him you have no need of wealth lol.

There is no reason to lock anyone out,PVP should not be the focus of the game anyhow,FUN and getting along with other players should be the focus.I play FPS games for fast action paced pvp.

The wealth part is also subjective ,for example i would love a house that looks awesome inside and out,i don't care about if it is a castle or a snuggly warm log cabin nor do i care about which is worth more.

Once you create the NEED to have the BEST it really curves the game away from FUN,people start using RMT, the economy gets broken,groups start to shun those that don't have the BEST,Raids shun those that don't have the best.That whole design is a VERY non friendly one.

Collecting wealth should allow you to buy nice items.  Eden Eternal is an example where both are present and functional.  Through the hardest dungeons and raids you can obtain BoP gear.  BoE forms of the gear are also available through crafting and are quite expensive to produce and obtain.

Diablo2. 

"I want to trade A,B,C for X,Y,Z.  Or I'll settle for A and B for Z, anyone want to trade?"

Someone opens up trade panel and starts putting in and taking out Traing-oul's armor.

"Yeah that's great you got the full set, wanna trade ABC for XYZ?"

They then show you their runed weapon.

"Wow isn't that fantastic you're real leet."

.

.

.

.

Diablo2's version of doing flex emotes in front of auction house.  Whoopty do.

Originally posted by Zooce

Collecting wealth should allow you to buy nice items.  Eden Eternal is an example where both are present and functional.  Through the hardest dungeons and raids you can obtain BoP gear.  BoE forms of the gear are also available through crafting and are quite expensive to produce and obtain.

That's character progression.

Wealth could be owning better armor but not WOW-clone better where you have a billion more hitpoints than someone in loincloth and a rusted dagger.

Wealth is owning land, buildings, NPC's, gold, raw materials, factories, anything that isn't character progression.

I have little value for stuff, be it weapons, armor, houses, mines or whatever, I get it because I have too not because I find it interesting.

So it wouldn't bother me at all if a game was based totally around leveling my character and not obtaining items.

Visiting the one of hundred of topics on this site about the same PVP topic, someone is arguing why world pvp isn't as good as instanced battleground PVP, it's so imbalanced.  blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaf'ing AH.

Actually battleground PVP is also imbalanced, if you're in greens and the guy your fighting is in blues you're going to lose.

But if a game isn't based on character progression and you had an army of 10 NPC's and the enemy had an army of 50 NPC's, and the game was made realistic enough you could perhaps take up position at a small chokepoint (movie 300) where numbers mean less.  In Total War games like Medieval Total War, if you are outnumbered you CAN still win, and at the very least take down an equal amount of enemy forces as you lost.   So if you lose all 10, the enemy with 50 NPC's also loses 10.

Take down an equal amount of enemy NPC's as you lost, even if you are outnumbered 5:1, this is better than losing 100%  to someone who has better gear or a higher level than you in a character progression game, not inflicting one ounce of pain on them.  In a character progression game the loser loses 100% and the winner loses 0%.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

That is not character progression...

...that is gear progression.

I don't want a  game to revovle around a single thing. I want a game that revovles around getting better gear, but not because you killed a big boss, but because your guild has elite and experienced crafters that know how to refine the best metals and how to turn those quality materials into quality weapons and armor. And when I say knowledge, i dont mean they have a recipe they learned by spamming "make bamboo wand," but because they have information on ratios and porptions in order to refine metal from minerals. And have learned and tested techniques they got from testing armor in battle, then refining their recipes. Like Mortal Online, except even deeper and more complex...

Also, to have progression based on personal and guild assets. Say if your a solo player, and you work on building a house out in some secluded forrest by chopping trees. And build up from their. Or joining a guild and building huge castles and cities. Or coastal trading ports, ect... Then having pvp focused around actual land conquer gameplay... or a band of murderers that roams around trade routes.. or policing your guilds territory. Having naval combat in addition to this.

Then for pve, you don't get armor and weapons (unless the enemy you kill is wearing it), but you get rare materials, or trading goods (like jewels that can be used in crafting), ect. Or lets say you raid a pve encampment, and you loot their stash of materials(say filled with gold or textiles.)

Theres a lot of things i can go on about, but you get the point...im tired of this kill a instanced boss and get told your worth by color code bs.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression:  You do flex emotes in front of auction house for all to see your uber glowing sword and armor.

That is not character progression...

...that is gear progression.

Correct spelling Nazi.

OK fine gear progression, same thing since everyone hits max level.

Like in starcraft at a small opening choke point you can have a battle between 10 zerglings and 50 enemy zerglings, you lose 10 zerglings and the enemy also loses 10 zerglings.  Using tactics you can inflict an equal amount of damage.  Although you still lose the battle you inflicted an equal amount of pain the enemy inflicted on you.

Or in Medieval Total War, you can put archers up on a hill, and in front of archers 1 unit of melee.  You can be outnumbered 3 to 1 but still win the battle, by using tactics. 

This is impossible with character progression games. 

I spit on item/character progression games  *PTOOEY!*

Originally posted by Biggus99

Although you have obviously worded your poll to make us vote for wealth progression, I still prefer character progression.  It is an MMORPG, after all, not an MMORTS.  Saying all that, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a game that gives you both.  Nothing wrong with combining the two, if done correctly. 

What MMORPGs don't combine both?

Few, if any.

Mount&Blade

Wealth progression is nice but even nicer it is to have also character progression.
Character progression ist not bad, it only goes to far in common mmos - make some people semigods for each 5 to 10 levels difference is bad.

Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.

One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.

Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.

Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.

Originally posted by ~Oblivion~

 

Neither should be the main focus of an MMORPG, but out of the two narrow and obviously biased answers you offer I chose Wealth Progression.The character progression model you offered (level/gear based) is certainly a design that is popular but in my opinion has too many disadvantages to be the ideal progression system. As some have stated above, both systems should be employed for maximum enjoyment and immersion but I offer a different design approach to character progression.

One way characters could progress is through real experience (i.e. FPS) which ties directly into the wealth progression model. For example, if my character is a blacksmith and has developed a solid formula for smelting an alloy stronger than steel, I have gained actual working knowledge for my in game discipline. When I combine this knowledge with the resources I have already gained (a forge, tools, and perhaps a spoken contract with a mining guild) I can advance my trade, and perhaps open a storefront in the capital city to sell my wares.

 

 

Character progression can also refer to advancement of status, such as gaining rank in the military. For instance in times of war or great conflict soldiers may be promoted because of their actions in combat rather than through more standardized ways. If a character that is enlisted in a mobile infantry unit has performed an act of heroicism at risk of their own life (i.e. permadeath) and for the safety and security of their platoon, they may be awarded the Medal of Honor, and promoted to the next rank. This promotion increases their pay and their position within the heirarchy of their unit, giving them the ability to command more men on dropship missions on contested planets.

 

 

Lastly character progression can refer to social progression. When players interact with other players they have the opportunity to form relationships and if this player is a manufacturer or tradesman they may gain clients. The more a character such as this interacts socially and promotes their wares the more they gain in wealth and can expand their business. This social power they have gained may lead them to merge with other corporations and form conglomerates, merging each client base of the successful companies until the original tradesman is now a managing CEO of a larger series of businesses that provide goods to player organizations that focus on other aspects of a game. Not only do they have power from wealth but through social reputation, which often has an equivalent or more potent effect on other players.

 

Your first 2 examples are more like wealth progression.  Levels and gear grind are about combat.

As far as your first example, it would negate the need to hire NPC blacksmiths if a player can be sooo much better than NPC's.  A living breathing world needs NPC's going hither and thither, waypoints created by PLAYERS not developers, and destroyable in combat.  Developer NPC's pop right back up and wander hither and thither like zombies and have no function other than to be killed.