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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: Full Beta Preview

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238 posts found
  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

10/26/11 3:51:19 PM#221
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 I think everyone understands the typical themepark quest format, no matter how cleverly hidden it might be. I'm not sure why it having the typical themepark quests would be a bad thing though, for those who like these types of games.

 

  ThomasN7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6637

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

10/26/11 3:52:14 PM#222
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 Nope. There's more.

 Oh you get to make choices within your dialogue but it still leads to more go fetch and go kill quests. Notice I said quests not Flashpoints.

  User Deleted
10/26/11 4:01:55 PM#223

I am waiting for a MMO that when I fire off a spell and miss my target the house next door explodes.

 

Barring that kinda innovation I will just have to settle for TOR for the time being.

 

TOR looks fun at the end of the day. It will be good enough to occupy me for at least a few weeks making the purchase worthwhile and hopefully it's fun enough to play longer term until GW2 or better yet Archage comes out. Either way it'll be worth the 60$ buy and try and a month or 2 at 15$.

  DLangley

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 1430

10/26/11 4:07:32 PM#224

Be aware that there is still and NDA in effect for beta-testers. You can say you are in beta, absolutely nothing else though.

"I am in the beta." - thats it. Nothing more. No impressions. Please make sure to abide by this rule.

  laserit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1368

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

10/26/11 4:20:35 PM#225
Originally posted by SaintViktor
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 Nope. There's more.

 Oh you get to make choices within your dialogue but it still leads to more go fetch and go kill quests. Notice I said quests not Flashpoints.

Hmm

Every MMO i have ever played  period (and I have played most of them) had you killing this or that , collect this or that or craft this or that. Rinse and repeat. Guess it all comes down to if the game is designed to do these things in a fun and entertaining manner.

 

Your milage may vary

Zenimax kicked my dog

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

10/26/11 7:38:37 PM#226
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by SaintViktor
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 Nope. There's more.

 Oh you get to make choices within your dialogue but it still leads to more go fetch and go kill quests. Notice I said quests not Flashpoints.

Hmm

Every MMO i have ever played  period (and I have played most of them) had you killing this or that , collect this or that or craft this or that. Rinse and repeat. Guess it all comes down to if the game is designed to do these things in a fun and entertaining manner.

 

Your milage may vary

Come back to your post after you do a dozen or so TOR's "bonus" objectives.

  haibane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 179

10/27/11 1:19:04 AM#227

Still, this game has the major problem to do the stupid  healer / tank / DPS stuff.


THIS IS SO NOT STAR WARS.


God dammit why can't Bioware be inventive. {mod edit}

 

Ever seen Palpatine (consular) HEAL SOMEONE ?? Ever seen Boba Fett throw himself in front of bullets to protect anyone ? NOPE


So why the fk ruin everything because Bioware can't think of any system that would work, something that was done perfectly for GW2 ???


You're a Hardcore Survivor!

You not only survived the zombie apocalypse, but did it with style! Your mastery of zombie knowledge, survival tactics, and weaponry is nearly unmatched. Congratulations, for you are hardcore!

  ReaperUk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 555

10/27/11 8:40:00 AM#228
Originally posted by DLangley

Be aware that there is still and NDA in effect for beta-testers. You can say you are in beta, absolutely nothing else though.

"I am in the beta." - thats it. Nothing more. No impressions. Please make sure to abide by this rule.

The problem is there's virtually nothing left that isn't in the public domain now.

I've been in  testing of the game myself but when I express an opinion of the game,  it's impossible to say where I formed that opinion. It could had been while testing, or it could have been by reading things in public forums. I ensure I never mention my testing experience when expressing my opinion of the game.

I notice some people (the same people) keep expressing opinions of the game and then say they can't elaborate because of the NDA. If these people really are testers, which I doubt, they should realise even saying that is breaking the NDA and yet the real testers, who DO respect the NDA can't respond.

The sooner the NDA is dropped, the better for us all.

  HardRider

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/11
Posts: 3

10/28/11 7:54:19 AM#229

Really don't know if i want to play this or not lol.


:(


  DeViLzzz2007

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 108

11/01/11 9:45:39 AM#230

Star Wars: The Old Republic I have preordered this but I hope that I will see a push to competitive fun gaming that challenges you but does not break you with a ridiculous play schedule per week.  Seriously create longer lockouts for dungeons and raids so players are not slave driven by their guild leaders just so they can see end game content.  I also would like to see more focus on questing and the world players play in making the community want to be all over it.  WOW has killed that and has basically become a dungeon crawler.  Please don't let this happen.  As for reading much of what is in the full beta preview I don't want to see lots and lots of spoilers and so I have restrained myself at times from looking at info here and around the net.  I also want to say I have realistic expectations for this game and quite frankly I don't think they are going to do anything different than WOW and to me that is sad.  Hopefully I am wrong but I doubt it.

Money is the root of all evil.

  dougthegreat

Novice Member

Joined: 11/04/11
Posts: 1

11/04/11 8:46:50 AM#231

Also, EA servers are kind of terrible... all the time...and they have lousy customer service. Seems like a bad partenership to me...


  imno007

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 8

11/04/11 11:56:59 AM#232

I'm really looking forward to trying this game, but the one thing I haven't seen any mention of, amidst all the raves about the graphics and the real voices, etc: lag. Are there any lag issues? Seems like all that tech would take a real hit on bandwidth. I just hope this game doesn't play like a certain other Star Wars MMO did on launch. Anyone remember the truly horrible lag issues Star Wars Galaxies had when it first launched? Obviously your connection speed will have a lot to do with it, but it remains to be seen how well the game will play at whatever the average download speed is considered to be these days and with thousands of people on the servers at once. I'll keep my fingers crossed....


  User Deleted
11/04/11 12:10:03 PM#233
Originally posted by Redemp
 
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 I think everyone understands the typical themepark quest format, no matter how cleverly hidden it might be. I'm not sure why it having the typical themepark quests would be a bad thing though, for those who like these types of games.

 

Because to me that is not a quest.  Look at it this way and bear with me, here as I am fairly certain not everyone has ever played Dungeons & Dragons or Asherons Call.  I am fairly confident that every one has played a single Player Role playing game though.

 

Would you rather do the following quest:  Go kill 10 rats, or go collect 10 wolf's ears?  Versus:

  1. Speak to the Inspector of Lords in your Faction Stronghold.
  2. From Eastwatch head north to the Blighted Verdant Moarsman Tunnels at 92.7N 42.3W.
  3. From the portal drop, take all lefts until you reach the Moarsmen Priory (180+) portal (its not far).
  4. Once inside the Priory you'll first come to an octagon shaped bridge, go east (north and south loop around to the pit below the bridges). Continue until you come to a large room with ramps dropping down to a basin with an altar in the middle. A floor plate directly in front of the north door opens it. (The two locked doors on the east wall and south wall also lead to the final room but don't save any time, see map.)
  5. Once you've opened the door go north you'll soon come to another large room with two Surface portals, do not go in any of them, go to the southeast corner of the room and a tunnel leads out of the room, stick left until you come to a very large room, back up and stay in the hallway, killing Moarsmen until Prior Kothmox appears. He drops Kothmox's Staff.
    • Note: Prior Kothmox is surrounded by a large number of moarsman, and there is only one way in and out. The spawn is relatively slow, so it's best to clear the room before fighting Prior Kothmox. Proceed with caution.
    • Alternate Note: The Prior can be very tricky and long to kill especially if the spawn keeps attacking. Attack and kill the Moarsman right before the down ramp without bringing out any other moarsman. Once they are dispatched inch your way down the ramp. You will probably set off the spawn but only a few will make it up to you on the ramp. Kill them. If the Prior comes also ensure you keep his attention. If he does show up, clear the spawn and inch down the ramp a little more without setting off the moarsmen in the room and ensuring the respawn behind will not get involved. At that time you can kill the Prior. If he does not show up after you have dispatch a few of the first spawn, let them reset. Inch down until you can see the feet of the Prior in front of you. You cannot see him on radar at this time. Do not go too far or you will alert the spawn. Once you have his feet hit him with some spells and wars/arrows. If he is bugged he won't even move and you can kill him. If you are a melee you will have to try to run in and attack him and run back out. Either way you will need to find the right spot on the ramp as to not have anything spawn back on you and you can focus on the Prior. The all have high MagicD so a Will, Focus or War rare can be your friend!
  6. The good Prior is vulnerable to Imperil (x7 dmg), and also prone to being bugged at the far end of the fighting hall. Many of the (Vissidal level) moarsman ensconced in side passages cannot jump down the sides of the ramp leading up out of the room by which you enter. The best tactic to use is to lure out all those that can come up the passage, butcher them, then stand at the bottom of the passage out of the range of the survivors, and proceed to use Futility, Imperil and Damage Vulns from afar. If you don't have life magic, use a Royal Runed ranged weapon after you use a Royal Runed Wand to lower his magic defense so he doesn't resist the weapon. If you don't have such a weapon, then Futile him first, and use a Royal Runed melee weapon at fastest speed so you Imperil him as quickly as possible. Then switch to a standard Slash Render (the Silvaran weapons are nice) and cut him down as quickly as possible. If you've done it right, the other moarsmen in the room won't interfere with the fight until he's dead. Loot the staff and recall out as rapidly as possible. Note: he's got 60,000 hit points - you MUST Imperil him to get the fight done in any decent amount of time! Mages, good luck with a crit strike Slash Rending item. Keep the Magic Yield on him to keep his resistance down.
    • Note: The ideal weapon to kill him with, if he is Imped and Vulned, is a Crit Strike weapon. A Silvaran will substitute nicely. Do not use Armor Rending, its effect will be reduced by the Imperil.
    • Note: From the time you loot Kothmox's Staff, you have 1 hour to complete Part 2 of the lord test. If you fail, you must obtain the staff again.

Part 2: The Riddle

The second part of the quest is slightly different for each faction. The Lord Advancement NPC asks you to bring him a specific item from this quest, which is different for each society (items listed below).

  1. Depending on the time of day there will be a statue at 87.9S 55.9W west of The Pit of Heretics or east at 87.9S 54.5W, or there may be no statue at all (will have to wait for one to appear). Each statue is surrounded by 3 Coral Hollows.
    • Use the West Statue from Evensong to Foredawn and a half (nighttime).
    • Use the East Statue Dawnsong to Warmtide and a half (daytime).
    • Warning: At the transitions between day and night the statues could be bugged. Try not to the do the riddles when the transition between night and day is occurring (between foredawn and half and dawnsong and between warmtide and a half and evensong).
  2. Give the Statue the Kothmox's Staff and then talk with it.
  3. It will give you one of three math riddles. Solve the problem and click on the appropriate coral. Now you are flagged to enter a portal in the side of the wall of the main temple structure (portal looks like a door).
    • Brood Mother's Reckoning here for Riddle Answers
    • Reefhunter's Reckoning here for Riddle Answers
    • Note: Each person gets a different riddle, if you answer incorrectly you will be portaled into the pit in the temple where you should quickly recall to avoid dying. *** You must talk to get a new Riddle on Failure. ***
  4. Once you solve the riddle, use the corresponding Coral Hollow that matches your answer. You can ID the Coral Hollows to see the answers they represent. If you're correct, a Temple Door (portal) will spawn at the temple @ 87.9S, 55.2W.
  5. Use the Temple Door quickly, it expires after 5 minutes.

Part 3: Moarsman Gateway Temple

  1. Once in the Temple, follow the ramps/jumps (East/West) down until you come to a room with a Blind Keeper.
  2. Kill the Blind Keeper, but be careful, it spawns Listris Sleeches randomly nearby during the fight.
  3. This can be a lethal fight if you aren't smart. You can see the Keeper from the room above on radar. Proceed to put Magic Yield/Futility on him from on top, then your Imps and Slash Vulns (Frost might work, too). If you don't have life magic, then carry a Royal Runed Weapon to do the job for you. You must Imperil him to have a shot of winning this Test using Melee/Archery. Mages, your best shot is a Crit Strike Slash wand (the Drudge Scrying Orb works fine), casting the Slash Vuln yourself, of course. Remember to keep him Yielded to magic!
  4. He coughs up the Listris Sleech at a random chance every time he is hit with an attack or spell (similar to what the Burun Kings do). Thus, attacking him at fastest speed can chain-spawn multiple Sleeches and result in a death sentence. The Sleeches fade away after 30 sec to 1 minute, but in that time can easily kill you. Have Dispel Gems or spells ready to deal with the vulns they put on you. Attack the Keeper on Full Power (slowest attack) to minimize the chances a Sleech will spawn. A Silvaran weapon at full power has an excellent chance at killing him without spawning a single Sleech, and can do so before the Imperil wears off. He regenerates slowly enough that if you must re-Yield and re-Imperil him, you can do so without your work being undone. If you must do so with a melee weapon, I recommend using a Black Page of Salt and Ash to up the lousy attack modifier of the Royal Runed melee weapons.
  • Note If you attack him in one of the corners, as soon as the Sleech spawns run to the other side keeping the Keepers attention. If you do this fast enough the Sleech won't even get a dispell off on you and won't follow. Head to the opposite corner and repeat once another sleech shows up.
  • The ideal weapon to kill him with, if he is Imped and Vulned, is a Crit Strike weapon. A Silvaran will sub nicely. Do not use Armor Rending, it will reduce the effect of the Imperil.
  1. Once dead, a Gate Watcher will spawn, kill it. This is simply a marginally tougher high level Moarsman.
  2. Once you've killed him, loot the appropriate item from a dais in the room as required by your society:
  3. Note that you cannot loot until the Gate Watcher is dead! (No grab and go).
  4. You can only loot one item per Watcher spawn, so if you are in a group you have to kill him once for each person.
  5. Once you have the required item, return to your Lord Advancement NPC and hand it to them to complete the test.
  6. Then talk to the Promotions Officer to receive your rewards and be promoted to Lord.
  7. You can now access Moarsman City (Nyr'leha) by using the same statue you got the riddle from, using the statue now portals you to 90.8S 52.9W on the island. (The statue can be either at 88.0S 54.5W or at 88.0S 55.5W, the same as before.)
 
 
 
 
 
Its pretty freaking obvious that the former are crappy and uninspiring types of quests, and the latter is a indicator of something truely special/epic/worthwhile.   I think anyone who would prefer the go kill 10 rat model a complete and utter moron.
  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

11/04/11 12:16:05 PM#234
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Redemp
 
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 I think everyone understands the typical themepark quest format, no matter how cleverly hidden it might be. I'm not sure why it having the typical themepark quests would be a bad thing though, for those who like these types of games.

 

Because to me that is not a quest.  Look at it this way and bear with me, here as I am fairly certain not everyone has ever played Dungeons & Dragons or Asherons Call.  I am fairly confident that every one has played a single Player Role playing game though.

    Its pretty freaking obvious that the former are crappy and uninspiring types of quests, and the latter is a indicator of something truely special/epic/worthwhile.   I think anyone who would prefer the go kill 10 rat model a complete and utter moron.

 You can't exspect every quest in a mmorpg to be on the level of your example, you might also not be in the know that the main story line and character quests are hinted to be as detailed as your example.

I still fall back to the tried and true of ...  if you don't like themepark quests ,  don't play a themepark. You have every option to bemoan the fate of themepark questing, but griping about ( not that you specificly have ) Swtor utilizing typical themepark quests in its threads is a bit ... inflammatory.

I again point out to you that the main quest/story lines ARE supposed to be as wonderfully detailed as your D&D example.

 

  User Deleted
11/04/11 12:23:17 PM#235
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Redemp
 
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Here is a good example of how a quest works in TOR.

 Grab the quest and listen to dialogue, then go fetch or go kill something then return and listen to more dialogue. You will be doing this the entire game over and over.  Epic stuff right ? Wait, its phenomenal! :)

 I think everyone understands the typical themepark quest format, no matter how cleverly hidden it might be. I'm not sure why it having the typical themepark quests would be a bad thing though, for those who like these types of games.

 

Because to me that is not a quest.  Look at it this way and bear with me, here as I am fairly certain not everyone has ever played Dungeons & Dragons or Asherons Call.  I am fairly confident that every one has played a single Player Role playing game though.

    Its pretty freaking obvious that the former are crappy and uninspiring types of quests, and the latter is a indicator of something truely special/epic/worthwhile.   I think anyone who would prefer the go kill 10 rat model a complete and utter moron.

 You can't exspect every quest in a mmorpg to be on the level of your example, you might also not be in the know that the main story line and character quests are hinted to be as detailed as your example.

I still fall back to the tried and true of ...  if you don't like themepark quests ,  don't play a themepark. You have every option to bemoan the fate of themepark questing, but griping about ( not that you specificly have ) Swtor utilizing typical themepark quests in its threads is a bit ... inflammatory.

I again point out to you that the main quest/story lines ARE supposed to be as wonderfully detailed as your D&D example.

 

Why cant I expect every quest in an MMO to be exactly like that?  You do relize that quest is from Asherons Call, which came out 12 years ago and 90% of all their quests are like that.  I am confident that if something as old and archaic as AC can do soemthing I am fairly confident  that Bioware or EQ qith their tons of millions of $$$ can pull something off like it as well.  \

 

You know why they dont?  its called Lazyness and they know they can get away with half assing content for people such as your selves, and that is a crying frikken shame because if Developers would actually develop and innovate they could make something remarkable.

 

With that being said I "do" hope SWToR's main storylines are that detailed as it would at least make it worthwhile picking up to play as a Single player RPG.

  Redemp

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1055

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

11/04/11 12:32:49 PM#236
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 

Why cant I expect every quest in an MMO to be exactly like that?  You do relize that quest is from Asherons Call, which came out 12 years ago and 90% of all their quests are like that.  I am confident that if something as old and archaic as AC can do soemthing I am fairly confident  that Bioware or EQ qith their tons of millions of $$$ can pull something off like it as well.  \

 

You know why they dont?  its called Lazyness and they know they can get away with half assing content for people such as your selves, and that is a crying frikken shame because if Developers would actually develop and innovate they could make something remarkable.

 

With that being said I "do" hope SWToR's main storylines are that detailed as it would at least make it worthwhile picking up to play as a Single player RPG.

 The market has changed,  in completely diffrent directions from the first mmorpgs. You have no idea how much I wish a game would emulate the original everquest.  In the same breath I understand that even I as a gamer have changed, and what worked then simply would not now.

 You can't exspect every quest in a themepark Mmo to be exactly like that,  because its simply not the case. Themepark quests designed to be filler inbetween the dungeons, or interesting quests typically follow the same guide lines. You are asking for a change in the Themepark design ,  which shouldn't be asked on a thread devoted to a game which follows the typical themepark filler quest design. You know what the filler quests in Swtor will be, why be upset about it instead of just moving on? ( Again ,  nothing you've written seems to cry foul )

There is also alot to be said for some of us, ( I'd wager most of us ) who actually enjoy filler quests ... as its not something we have to pay attention to. We can do them whilst we chat with friends, discuss plans for our next pvp outing or raid. They are in essence what they are designed for ...  Filler. Simply because a themepark has many filler quests does NOT many it also doesn't have quests of unique and detailed proportions. I could also make the arguement that a game with no filler quests, as in all quests are detailed and interesting would be a huge drain on development time and resources. I have already said it once, bemoan the current state of mmorpgs or specifically Themepark mmorpgs ...  but Swtor is a themepark mmo ,  you know what your getting into.

  Onyx_Gear

Novice Member

Joined: 11/11/11
Posts: 1

long live gameing

11/11/11 1:56:18 PM#237

i want to play this asap...PERIOD!!


  Ikkei

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 169

11/19/11 9:53:49 AM#238

Here's the deal for me. Some games are great. TOR is about to compete to be the best mass-audience MMO ever produced, reading this thread it seems kind of obvious. 


Yet that should not deter us from the fact that it's a genre we know well—one that relies essentially on end-game interest and social setting. Put bluntly, the success of a MMO from a subjective (deeply personal) point of view is the result of the assessment one makes on "how much replayability there is to an inevitably limited content", and "how many friends will be there to share said experience with". 


This means that, no matter the actual quality of the game, if you have many friends there, you're more likely to rate it high and play it a little while longer (on a daily basis as well as in the long term). Once we reach endgame, or should we say the better part of an MMO character, the current dungeon or PvP being fun to replay over and over again defines how many people actually do it (thus more friends for you, potentially). That "you" is rhetorical, it's actually me and most people I know.


That's pretty much the story of our perception of WoW's grandeur and decadence. Friends and replayability. Waiting to see how the game itself plays out with people is paramount not to fall into such a borderline stance.


So I came to the realization that there are many good reasons not to play an MMO at release, but rather a few weeeks/months after D-Day. 




  • No point in investing too much time in a game that won't stick. Even if I want to play it for myself, I can do that anytime between release and the first expansion (that may change the experience anew, thus I would have "missed" vanilla).


  • If anytime is good, then it's a good idea to wait a bit to see how the game fares globally, and for my friends. Sometimes they all call you to join and it happens within weeks (a good sign). Sometimes they just don't and I can usually see why, because endgame is crudely exposed at this point of an MMO lifespan. Pioneers will tell you that endgame is good or bad, but only time can tell you if their perception was right.


  • A release is a mess on a technical and social perspective. I'm too old to be ironing bugs and 1337s for the sake of a publisher's profit. Frankly, most MMOs do become much better 3 weeks to 3 months after release. Why should I bother since there are many other great games to enjoy in the meantime?


  • It's a good way of saving bucks. A $60 box is likely to drop at about half ($30) within a few months. For the same game, with less bugs and inconsistencies. You may want to rethink that kind of posture if you want to support an indy game, but I suppose it's irrelevant to Star Wars. The fact that I can pay $60 for a game doesn't mean that I should, especially these days, especially when prices fall so steeply within months. 



TOR will be a success, I have absolutely no doubt about that, and I'm confident the game will be nicely crafted at release. But this is a minor part of the story of me actually playing an MMO actively, investing time and resources into it. I will play it, someday, I just don't know how yet.


 


In this case, I guess it's also very Jedi minded to be able to see how patience is a powerful means of understanding reality, and ultimately better appreciate it.

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