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Developers Corner 

MMORPG Game Concepts  » How about some rotational and linear inertia developers

13 posts found
  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/18/11 5:48:20 AM#1

Yeah.  Rotational and linear inertia for NPC/mobs and players. 

Yeah, I know, it's hard enough to do just plain old pathfinding with characters that act like nothing but 2D sprites in 2D space without any inertia but do give it a try just at least once.  It would improve the game a great deal, yeah.

.

.

.

All this high minded talk about "innovation", and game characters still function like 2D sprites from a Commodore 64 game:  they instantly rotate 180 degrees and turn on a dime even if they are gigantic monster bosses in WOW.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

10/18/11 3:27:36 PM#2

As in a rock spins while thrown?

They already have projectile arc and ragdoll physics to where you can roll a body down a hill. The havok engine alone handles pretty much everything here.

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  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/18/11 4:32:49 PM#3
Originally posted by GTwander

As in a rock spins while thrown?

They already have projectile arc and ragdoll physics to where you can roll a body down a hill. The havok engine alone handles pretty much everything here.

...which adds nothing to immersion.

When Luke fights the Rancor in Return of the Jedi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2sYr_jrXOg (big monster, ARRRG). 

The Rancor has 2 targets, Luke and the guard that fell down with him.  The rancor doesn't chase Luke (0 to top rancor speed in under a microsecond), then immediately do 90 degrees to his right in a microsecond to eat the guard, then immediately do another 90 degrees to the left in a microsecond to continue chasing luke(0 to top rancor speed in under a microsecond).

Luke runs behind the Rancor, the Rancor didn't immediately do a 180 degree turn in less than a microsecond and always face Luke, (and neither did the rancor do 0 to top rancor speed in uner a microsecond). 

Why?  Cause the Rancor's got inertia.  You know how dumb this scene would look if the Rancor, and Luke, used video game rules?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/18/11 5:20:25 PM#4

Are there many MMO gamers that would find that fun? It seems like it would come across as cumbersome and clumsy. Sometimes realism is better left to real life.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/18/11 7:23:40 PM#5
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Are there many MMO gamers that would find that fun? It seems liek it would come across as cumbersome and clumsy. Sometimes realism is better left to real life.

Duuuuuh, the Rancor is cumbersome and clumbsy, It's a big gigantic monster.   And hobbits and halflings are nimble and quick because of their small size.  That's how its suppose to work.  That's what's SUPPOSE to happen in combat between a gigantic monster and a nimble small character, you're advantage isn't in some lame skill rotation it's in inertia.  Of course if the gingantic monster successfully hits you as a small nimble character you're a fly being hit by a flyswatter.  That's how it's SUPPOSE to work, not cause of some lame skill rotation.

Do you mean it would be cumbersome and clumy to player or NPC?  If you mean player then I refer you to the MAX in Planetside. 

The MAX unit in Planetside was slow walking speed, slow to accerate, and slow to rotate, but that was part of the overall balance.  If the MAX wasn't slow to walk, wasn't slow to accelerate to running speed, and wasn't slow to rotate than it would be overpowered and it's armor would have to be nerfed or it's weapons would have to be nerfed or else everyone would be playing a MAX and nobody would be playing infantry.  That's how it's SUPPOSE to work if you're playing a big-ass player character, that is where the balance is SUPPOSE to come from.  Would you play a MMORPG where you can play a dragon character only to find out your dragon has the same amount of hitpoints as a halfling?  THATS LAME!  That's not how it's SUPPOSE to work.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/19/11 6:26:08 AM#6
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Are there many MMO gamers that would find that fun? It seems liek it would come across as cumbersome and clumsy. Sometimes realism is better left to real life.

Duuuuuh, the Rancor is cumbersome and clumbsy, It's a big gigantic monster.   And hobbits and halflings are nimble and quick because of their small size.  That's how its suppose to work.  That's what's SUPPOSE to happen in combat between a gigantic monster and a nimble small character, you're advantage isn't in some lame skill rotation it's in inertia.  Of course if the gingantic monster successfully hits you as a small nimble character you're a fly being hit by a flyswatter.  That's how it's SUPPOSE to work, not cause of some lame skill rotation.

Do you mean it would be cumbersome and clumy to player or NPC?  If you mean player then I refer you to the MAX in Planetside.

The controls would probably feel ciumsy or sluggish to the player. If you're talking about physics for boss mobs and not specifically for players, then what you describe exists in some games, however others don't have it because if a mob took too long to turn, the players would simply 'kite' it from behind.  Again, a lot of the animation and physics in MMOs is due to the surrounding mechanics and due to playability.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/19/11 6:30:49 AM#7
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

The constrols would probably feel ciumsy or sluggish to the player.

Yup, just like the MAX in planetside, that's how it's SUPPOSE to work.  If I were a big-ass dragon character I wouldn't mind sacrificing turn radius, acceleration, for some real power.  Just like someone who creates a halfling character woudn't mind sacrificing hitpoints/power for some real nimble abilities they could use, not some lame-ass skill that gives you +10 to nimbleness for 10 seconds, how lame is that!

If you're talking about physics for boss mobs and not specifically for players, then what you describe exists in some games, however others don't have it because if a mob took too long to turn, the players would simply 'kite' it from behind.  Again, a lot of the animation and physics in MMOs is due to the surrounding mechanics and due to playability.

Good, than the smaller nimble characters can kite it from behind, that's how it's SUPPOSE to work.  Either the boss grow a tail like the Stegosaurus or the boss gets guards, or better yet how about we throw the stupid raids out in the garbage along with other lame game mechanics.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/19/11 6:48:10 AM#8
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

The constrols would probably feel ciumsy or sluggish to the player.

Yup, just like the MAX in planetside, that's how it's SUPPOSE to work.  If I were a big-ass dragon character I wouldn't mind sacrificing turn radius, acceleration, for some real power.  Just like someone who creates a halfling character woudn't mind sacrificing hitpoints/power for some real nimble abilities they could use, not some lame-ass skill that gives you +10 to nimbleness for 10 seconds, how lame is that!

If you're talking about physics for boss mobs and not specifically for players, then what you describe exists in some games, however others don't have it because if a mob took too long to turn, the players would simply 'kite' it from behind.  Again, a lot of the animation and physics in MMOs is due to the surrounding mechanics and due to playability.

Good, than the smaller nimble characters can kite it from behind, that's how it's SUPPOSE to work.  Either the boss grow a tail like the Stegosaurus or the boss gets guards, or better yet how about we throw the stupid raids out in the garbage along with other lame game mechanics.

But what you describe is done in games. You're not  really going to find it in mainstream MMOs because it makes sense to put playability over realism, especially when everyone has a different definition of what is realisma and what is annoyance.

 

It is most noticeable with vehicles and mounts. Fallen Earth is an excellent example of that, as the horses move like horses and the vehicles move like vehicles, especially when turning around. Shadowbane and Horizons had noticeably different movement and behaviour for their the beast-like characters.

"but do give it a try just at least once"

 

Developers have. However running to get up to speed, slowing to a stop, spinning and stopping when sceince dictates instead of when the player dictates - these things haven't proven to be of much interest outside of vehicle-based or aircraft-based MMOs. Your example of MAX in Planetside is a good example of where it is effective and engaging in those games. Outside of that, inhte case of humanoid avatars, MMO gamers general prefer a more responsive control system over one that adds what would be little more than a delay to their final result,.

 

 

 

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/20/11 4:52:49 PM#9
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

But what you describe is done in games. You're not  really going to find it in mainstream MMOs because it makes sense to put playability over realism, ...

 

Stop using the phrase, "playability over realism," it has nothing to do with either.   It's making objects in the world not act like shallow 2D sprites like from a commodore64 game.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/20/11 6:56:18 PM#10
Originally posted by Nerf09
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

But what you describe is done in games. You're not  really going to find it in mainstream MMOs because it makes sense to put playability over realism, ...

 

Stop using the phrase, "playability over realism," it has nothing to do with either.   It's making objects in the world not act like shallow 2D sprites like from a commodore64 game.

If I can find Dragon #16, I'll copy an article for you. They had a great piece on realism vs game logic that could probably explain it better than I evidently have.

 

  User Deleted
10/20/11 7:11:31 PM#11

One issue I've seen with acceleration / deceleration on walking / running characters is it messes with animation sync causing slipping and skating.  The client would need to detect velocity and speed or slow animation so foot to ground contact remains constant.  Otherwise it looks like they're running on a sheet of ice.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6538

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/20/11 7:25:50 PM#12

umm havbe to admit i was lost here for a bit lol, ya i'm old and i'm tired.

I like the idea of inertia, and i love more realism the better.The only problem i have is that with latency issues it might get bad,as long as latency is good ,i like it.

The physics we have seen like rag doll is more a bounce realism effect,it's not really good physics but it's ok.As for inertia,i think that one would be tough to pull off.The reason is that games only have two modes run or wlk,you would have to add in variable speeds to create inertia.

The cheap way of doing it would be to have the game recognize a sort of lower gravity when in run mode and full gravity in walk mode.In run mode the inertia would act always the same with a set amouint of gravity and bounce/defelect.To try and pull it off using variable speeds i think would be far too much coding and gpu issues,however i could go for the cheap version for starters.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

 
OP  10/20/11 7:34:11 PM#13
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

If I can find Dragon #16, I'll copy an article for you. They had a great piece on realism vs game logic that could probably explain it better than I evidently have.

 

I know exactly what you're talking about.  And again it's not about realism it's about immersion.  It's watching a gigantic MOB do 180's in 0.1 seconds while zig-zag pathfinding.  WOW actually has the smoothest pathfinding i've seen, but MOB's still do 180's in 0.1 seconds facing whoever has "aggro". 

Talk about another lame-ass game mechanic "aggro".