Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Originally posted by askdaboss

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

In theory, I agree with you.  I've said it before, I really wish this game were worth a subscription, but I honestly believe that if it were, they'd be charging one.  It will probably still be worth playing, and it will probably be a good deal for the price... But you can't expect the performance of a porche when you buy a volkswagon.

Dude, seriously... Not saying this is the case for every game, but a simple calculation proves your reasoning is wrong in at least one case, and thus might well be wrong in this case. If you look at WoW:

5 millions users (random number) x $10 / month = 50 millions dollar / month.

Now, I am nice so I will halve this number, assuming that $25 millions will be spent into buying toilet paper at Blizzard office. I also put 20 millions dollars in the shareholder pockets.

That's still $5 millions per month to develop the game. That's 5x12 = 60 millions dollars a year.

 

If what you were saying was truly the case (i.e. that "subscription = game worth"), WoW should have stopped asking for a subscription  long ago.

This is clearly not the case (they are still asking for a sub), thus "subscription <> game worth".

GW2 people are clearly not angels, as they are still hoping to make a profit, but they are clearly cutting their margins here (i.e. not plannning on using $ notes as toilet paper, unlike other game developers) and all you can post is this...

 

Also, the price tag of a Porshe is absolutely not related to its performance (there is no linear relationship between performance and cost in this case), and basically a Wolskvagen has a way better cost/performance ratio. The high price tag on a Porshe is due to the fact it is a luxury item, and everyone knows that the prices are grossly inflated on luxury items, because this is what they are - luxury items.

5 million users believe that WOW is worth the sub... that makes it worth the sub.  That's how markets work.

NCSoft is going to expect the same ROI on GW2 as they are every other game they make.  If they don't get the money from subs, they'll either get it from their cash shop, or they'll put less money into developement.  Those are your only two options. 

I am a sheep, I decided to play WoW solely for the reason that EVERYONE ELSE WAS. I played the content and found it to be extremely lacking. WoW is so far a game that NO ONE has EVER insisted I play. No one has told me it has an AWESOME story, or the items are so unique, or the community is so fantastic. Since its inception the constant input I get is "I am looking at this new game, but for the meantime I am just going to keep playing WoW, if this new game works out I will jump ship"

So to say that 5 million users believe that WOW is worth the sub... I doubt that. 5 million people won't tell you that Mc Donalds has the healthiest food and you should eat there. It tastes good for a bit and you love to hate it, and hate to love it. WOW is the dirty little secret we keep and share with others who also have it. 

A game that handles the item shop pretty well is Runes of Magic.

Until we see it, we can only keep our fingers crossed that they don't screw GW2 up like most of the F2P games.

Skinner box. All you need to know about WoW gameplay and all the other derivatives of its design.

And this from a former "hardcore" and "fanboi". 

And if you still love it and enjoy it then GOOD. And if you move on to TOR and have fun, even BETTER. And for those waiting for GW2 and TSW, I hope you find fun as well because those games show promise of AWESOME.

That being said: I am right and you are wrong. Now, 

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Elderknight

Game shops = Pay to Win, imo sucks.

 

The game shop will contain all materialistic crap you dont need. It is only cosmetic.

That's overly optimistic.  They've left open plenty of options for the cash shop including more stories, dungeons, and even XP potions.  They came right out and said that they'll sell whatever people want to buy.  Good luck.

1) Stories, dungeons, or even expansion within the shop, imo, would be perfectly fine. You are paying money to get more content. The only difference between buying the stories and dungeons a la carte and buying them within an expansion is well one comes in a box and the other you can download as they are made available.

2) XP potions...it's one of those fine line things. It's not exactly game breaking to offer XP potions in shape, especially if they are available in the game.

I don't think ArenaNet would risk their reputation by offering something game-changing in the cashshop. I remember seeing the community explode when they mentioned transmutation stones being in the shop. Last I heard, now, transmutation stones can now be purchased in-game or in the cash shop.

There's a very fine line that if Anet crosses the community will explode. Yes technically, by following their philosophy, they could even offer armor sets in there, as long as they weren't more powerful than anything obtained within the game. However, if they did such a thing the community would literally explode. The reputation ArenaNet has gained, and it's the reason why us GW1 fans have faith in Anet, will be lost.

I know it's hard to believe, but you can have a company that does care about about their customers. While yes, their first and foremost goal is to make a profit (they are a business after all), they can do it by listening to their playerbase and delivering on what they want. And, theoretically, those who like Anet will tell their friends and then Anet will gain even more business. That's how GW1 grew as big as it did.

I hope they stay true to the GW cash shop. XP potions are already too much. The most efficient way to kill this wonderful game is an NCSoft pay2win cash shop. I've seen too many F2P cash shops that destroy their player base. I do hope they stay far away from that. I'm not paying for this game if the cash shop is p2w. Paying for an in-game advantage over another player = pay to win. It's simple. So far I have no reason to distrust Anet or NCSoft, let's hope it stays that way.

Yea I don't think Anet would go the Pay to Win route. Not that NCSoft doesn't want that of course. The more money the better to them. It's aways the suits who care about pulling in the big bucks while they pay the develoeprs $35k a year for 75 hour, 6 dya work weeks, with a nice little bonus of about 10% of their income as a bonus on a successful game.

---

Originally posted by someforumguy
Just let it rest. The second poster is just one of those customers who really believe that higher price automatically means better quality. If a  history of failed AAA MMO releases in recent years doesnt change this belief, then a new AAA MMO that doesnt ask a sub, wont change it either.
To me its just plain weird that without having insight in the real expenses and profit margin, you can even claim that a AAA MMO needs a sub to be financially successfull.
EDIT: Confused the OP with the second poster in this thread, corrected now.

---

Very true. I just don't understand that mentality. Anet wants to show that you can turn a good profit and make a good game without charging a subscription. As in my signature, they want gamers to lose this ridiculous belief that a game needs to charge you money each month for the privilege of playing something you already paid for.

Sounds like an Apple customer.

So instead of a monthly fee (which some feel is uneeded to support a game) they add a Cash Shop.  Why? Is it needed? Or is it just a different way of getting what they miss out on with a sub fee? Players are going to pay one way or the other.  Some just prefer an upfront sub fee as opposed to a stealthy cash shop.

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

SSSHhhhhhhhh........

You weren't supposed to mention that.

---

Originally posted by Rusty715
So instead of a monthly fee (which some feel is uneeded to support a game) they add a Cash Shop.  Why? Is it needed? Or is it just a different way of getting what they miss out on with a sub fee? Players are going to pay one way or the other.  Some just prefer an upfront sub fee as opposed to a stealthy cash shop.

---

---

Originally posted by WhiteLantern
I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

---

There's no cash shop yet so any claims that it will contain more then fluff are somewhat premature.

You've obviously never played Guildwars or you would have been more familiar with the skill unlocking mechanism. These packs are aimed at PvP, they unlock the skills for the account, meaning PvE characters still have to buy or capture them in game, through normal game play. They are only available directly to PvP characters and heroes and they're not so useful for heroes, since most players would have had the more useful skills unlocked by the time heroes became available. They could be useful for players who only want to PvP, as it gave them access to all skills, without having to play PvE, or build up Balthazar faction through playing PvP to buy them. For them they are a convenience, without giving an advantage as everything they offer is available through playing the game. And even the convenience is small, as 15 minutes of casual PvP will get you 8-10 skills.

Like Blizzard, ANet can not afford to give players the opportunity to gain an advantage that is only available through the cash shop, because players would leave en masse - and Guidwars' B2P needs loyal customers to buy expansions.

Originally posted by Rusty715

So instead of a monthly fee (which some feel is uneeded to support a game) they add a Cash Shop.  Why? Is it needed? Or is it just a different way of getting what they miss out on with a sub fee? Players are going to pay one way or the other.  Some just prefer an upfront sub fee as opposed to a stealthy cash shop.

This should go without saying, but apparently it needs to be.  Unlike a subscription, you won't be prevented or hindered from playing with an inclusion of a cash shop.  You have the choice to ignore it, use it or abuse it.  You have full discretion over your money.  If you're incapable of limiting your spending, that's your failing.

Originally posted by Malaksbane

Originally posted by Rusty715

So instead of a monthly fee (which some feel is uneeded to support a game) they add a Cash Shop.  Why? Is it needed? Or is it just a different way of getting what they miss out on with a sub fee? Players are going to pay one way or the other.  Some just prefer an upfront sub fee as opposed to a stealthy cash shop.

Right, and subs are upfront? It's not like they tell you upfront you'll spend $180 in fees per year, or like $900 in 5 years. The cash shop is optional, not stealthy, you know it's there and you know you don't have to buy anything from it,

What I don't get is why people keep saying that $50 upfront + $150 fees per year is a better buy then $50 upfront. They gotta be kidding, or maybe it's a form of sarcasm.

People lacking the math skills to calculate the annual cost of sube fees are just the people the F2P devs are making their games for.  I know, millions play the F2P games without paying a penny. I know people who claim to always win at the casino as well. Be it casinos or F2P games, someone is paying the bills.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

So... no p2w items then, ever.

It was very clear from the beggining ppl, nothing new really.

'Made by gamers for gamers' - this is why this team so good.

I'm fairly confident we are going to see 3 major ways of paying for the game for the forseeable future.

F2P - You download and play for free and they either make it straight up P2W which will be more common or they make it a bit of a grind to get to where you would be by just buying stuff.

B2P - Quite similar to the latter method of F2P with two exceptions, nothing you buy in the store gives you an advantage over others. Even that statement in it's own is fairly vague and each company will of course take it as far as they like. The second exception is that you need to buy the box, or digital download.

Sub - Games that ask for a monthly fee should should not be charging for the initial box or expansions (Like EVE does with it's expansions). Sub based games could also, again like EVE, offer the ability to pay for your account time with in game currency. I understand that there may be a possibility to convert Game Time into In-Game money but if carefully thought through and your game supports it and is built around it you can prevent abuse of people trying to make the system P2W (And again EVE does a good job of that).

Originally posted by Draftbeer

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

So... no p2w items then, ever.

It was very clear from the beggining ppl, nothing new really.

'Made by gamers for gamers' - this is why this team so good.

I bet he doesn't even understand what those skill packs are and how you obtain these skills in game.... Let alone the fact that the REAL grind in the game is getting elite skills which are not sold in the store at all.

Next they will be linking the stuff for pvp only characters and going 'OMG YOU CAN BUY THIS STUFFFFF!!!!11;' again not understanding at all how this stuff is actually implemented.

Originally posted by Rusty715

...

People lacking the math skills to calculate the annual cost of sube fees are just the people the F2P devs are making their games for.  I know, millions play the F2P games without paying a penny. I know people who claim to always win at the casino as well. Be it casinos or F2P games, someone is paying the bills.

We're in the GW2 forum so I don't see why you start discussing F2P games and their means to generat income?

---

Originally posted by Zezda

I bet he doesn't even understand what those skill packs are and how you obtain these skills in game.... Let alone the fact that the REAL grind in the game is getting elite skills which are not sold in the store at all.
 
Next they will be linking the stuff for pvp only characters and going 'OMG YOU CAN BUY THIS STUFFFFF!!!!11;' again not understanding at all how this stuff is actually implemented.

---

Actually, the link he posted says the unlock packs include basic and elite skills.

Could you perhaps explain the way it works in Guild Wars 1 for those of us who don't play? I for one am bothered a little bit by them allowing you to buy all your skills...but I'll admit I don't know how GW1 works so I'd like to learn.

Originally posted by phobox

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

...

A game that handles the item shop pretty well is Runes of Magic.

Until we see it, we can only keep our fingers crossed that they don't screw GW2 up like most of the F2P games.

What are you saying, man? RoM had a horrible P2W item shop!

Originally posted by Draftbeer

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

So... no p2w items then, ever.

It was very clear from the beggining ppl, nothing new really.

'Made by gamers for gamers' - this is why this team so good.

Buying the skill packs...does it give an advantage to the person that does not buy them?  It's pretty obvious that it does.  One might argue that you are not buying anything that you cannot unlock yourself, so it is not an advantage... so let's look at Tom and Jerry.

Tom is working on unlocking those skills.

Jerry...Jerry's done.

How could you say that Jerry does not have an advantage?

---

Originally posted by VirusDancer

---

Originally posted by Draftbeer

---

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I think one needs to look no further than GW1's shop to see what we can expect in GW2. A fact that alot of people don't want to admit is that there is alot more than fluff in the GW1 shop. This is the kind of stuff people complain about in other games but overlook here because GW1 is "B2P" not "F2P".

---

So... no p2w items then, ever.
It was very clear from the beggining ppl, nothing new really.
'Made by gamers for gamers' - this is why this team so good.

---

Buying the skill packs...does it give an advantage to the person that does not buy them?  It's pretty obvious that it does.  One might argue that you are not buying anything that you cannot unlock yourself, so it is not an advantage... so let's look at Tom and Jerry.
Tom is working on unlocking those skills.
Jerry...Jerry's done.
How could you say that Jerry does not have an advantage?

---

Jerry definitely does have an advantage, the question is how much? Jerry hasn't played PvP and unlocked the skills with his points, Jerry has no clue how those hundreds of skills works or any idea of how to create an effective build with them, he can go look up some builds on the web and follow cookie cutters, that gives him an advantage at the start until....he comes across players who have picked up their skills by playing and have developed an understanding of the skills and created their own builds, Jerry's build is now useless and the wiki doesn't have a counter. Jerry's advantage is short term and puts him at a disadvantage unless he's a really skilled player, otherwise he's got a very steep learning curve to climb. There is an advantage in playing for them, I'd say it's balanced.