Originally posted by aaradun

MMO are not going to change, the day it actually change it's going to be called something else.

That is dumb. The 3 first MMOs were Meridian 59, The realm and Ultima online. While the first 2 were somewhat similar the third was very different.

I never met anyone saying Eve isn't a MMO. Genres are pretty wide.

Genres change. FPS games are very different since Counter strike to give you a good example.

Of course genres can split into 2. After Dune the strategy games genre split into RTS and turned based strategy games. That might happen with MMOs as well.

If MMOs don't change but will be exactly like they are now the genre will be close to dead in 10 years, nothing lasts forever and computer games needs to change and adapt to survive. If you don't believe me download a C-64 emulator and some games, they are very different from modern games.

I think it will change when mmo will begin to incorporate a wilder audience, obviously internet audience. Both time when the 1r mmo became popular with Uo, and the Wow boom, both time it was due to a, internet growth. Mmo today have a quiet larger potential if they open up to the overall internet gaming community, and not just the sword and magic pewpew fest mmorpg are based on. I think both Blizzard and Richard Garriot work each on their own on this kind of project, those guys aren't the master minds of the mmo for nothing.

Mmo need to stop being a combat mechanism served on a multiplayer platform, and it will make his next step ahead. They need to be a lot more than that to grab those scattered audiences through the net. Can they be made technically speaking? i don't know, those guys probably knows better, but i don't see why it couldn't. It would need an other level of work on those mmo for sure, and when i see how companies literally struggle to be able to serve the basics i'm not very confident. But i definitely think this is where the future lye.

I agree MMOs have gotten into a rut of the same ole stuff. But some of these things have technical reasons.

Action-oriented combat as in true projectiles is tougher on the servers and network than RPG style combat is. It's more difficult to accomplish cost-effectively. Which is why most of the games that do use action-oriented combat fake it. The one thing that should be noted though is that every action-oriented MMO to date has either been a failure or a disappointment. Perhaps its because they tried to walk that line and it just didn't work. Perhaps its because that type of combat tires and burns players out more quickly. Or perhaps it's that many of the players are middle-aged with kids and don't have the desire to play those types of games. Obviously there are many gamers who do. But every single MMO that comes out if you follow the comments on them you see tons of complaints that it's traditional combat, yet when action based games come out, gamers do not support them, for whatever reason.

With regards to graphics, MMOs will always be behind single player games. For one, many MMO fans are again those middle-aged with kids types, and many of them are using dated or budget computers. But there's more to it than that. Single player or smaller multiplayer games allow for easier optimization for many reasons.

For one they can precalculate a lot of things that MMOs can not if they want to keep a solid day/night cycle. Baked lighting is used in most single player games as its extremely cheap to render, and it allows for better looking lighting and shadows. It doesn't work well with a moving sun though because all of the baked shadows will remain permanently in one place.

In a single player game or a first person shooter, you have good control over the numbers of textures or objects in a scene. A typical monster is going to be a single mesh with one material for the texture and either transparency or maybe ambient occlusion or displacement, and a second texture with the normal and specular map. This data can easily be instanced and rendered quickly with batch rendering. Contrast that to player models in an MMO. You may have a player made up of 10 different parts, each using different textures on different players. Texture switching is one of the slower operations, and not only must you keep swapping these textures, but you also have many different models being represented by characters, much higher texture memory usage, and are unable to instance the data.

Beyond the character or NPC models, you then have the unknown quantities. In a single player game you can go crazy on polygon counts of monsters because you have exact control over how many will be in a scene. You know there will be one player, and however many mobs you have in a scene. You can easily target a certain count and balance things around it. In a multiplayer game such as an FPS you have less control but you still will seldom have more than a few players rendering on the screen at any given time. In an MMO you could get a raid, or a group in an area at any given time. Suddenly the area that normally has one or two players in it, has 50 players in close proximity, all of them with texture and part variations. As a result MMO developers have to balance for the worst case scenarios, or deal with terrible performance in those situations.

Thats very interesting. I feel a bit stupid that I never thought of it from that stand point. Bummer too because i know that the graphics situation isnt going to improve for another 7-10 years, and even when it does it will be 7 years behind the cutting edge. This really sucks because from from where im standing now, i dont see anything getting better anytime soon. IMHO of course. Im not going to bag on anyone who wants to continue playing whatever it is they are playing, but I will buy Guild Wars 2 simply because i wont be subscribing to anything, but no company is getting any of my dollars every month for a game sub until something is released that is truly new and innovative. I guess I will have to get cozy with some of my old single player RPGs lol

Although I wonder what it would be like to have a more or less single player RPG such as Skyrim, and add multiplayer to it with servers. Similar to how FPS does it. Join a server with anywhere from 10-64 players and just do your thing like you would in single player only every so often you run into another player who is also roaming around. Not quite MMO but it would be sort of the game i am asking for on a much smaller scale. Maybe the mod community can come up with something like this once its released. Who knows. Thanks everyone for all your great insights, it really brought a lot of things to light for me and I believe I got the answers i was seeking ;-)

It's happening right now. It's called Minecraft.

If I was a medium-big Dev with money enugh I would create an MMO where players could change the terrain.

But the thing is, even without big Devs, small groups can start a Minecraft MMO-life server. We've seen that Heroes server with 120 players, and Minecrat is not even out yet, and there is'nt an SDK yet.

Originally posted by BadSpock

How do you even DEFINE real change?

Any game that's so different that it qualifies as REAL change will earn a new Acronym anyway.

"I'm playing that new MMOPRAGUTVUS that just came out this month."

The changes we are seeing to mmorpg's are real just not REALLY interesting to you which is the difference.  And it should be reflected in your post.  The mmorpg genre is still a growing industry so the insinuation constantly made by visitors to this site are a bit short sighted in assuming that a portion of the very loud player base that frequents this corner somehow represent the whole of the genre.  I guess I can certainly sympathize with those out there unable to find a game they can enjoy but the need to tear down other players and developers who don't cater to your particular desires doesn't help the cause at all.

The very day that GW2 launches, the MMO world will never be the same again.

When developers are allowed to think out of the box.

Originally posted by raistlinm

The changes we are seeing to mmorpg's are real just not REALLY interesting to you which is the difference.  And it should be reflected in your post.  The mmorpg genre is still a growing industry so the insinuation constantly made by visitors to this site are a bit short sighted in assuming that a portion of the very loud player base that frequents this corner somehow represent the whole of the genre.  I guess I can certainly sympathize with those out there unable to find a game they can enjoy but the need to tear down other players and developers who don't cater to your particular desires doesn't help the cause at all.

I have repeatedly stated that most of what I write is my opinion, wether people share that opinion or not is irrelevant and that this discussion is open to anyone who would like to add there 2 cents. Read my post again or better yet here is my closing statement:

"Anyways, this is simply my opinion and nothing more. If you share my vision then great lets discuss it. If you dont agree and you hate my guts, then go on and tell me about it i got all day. Either way start talkin people. Thanks"

So no offense raistlinm, i agree with you that my views dont reflect everyones views, but those who see it the same as me have the right to be heard just as you do. Im not tearing down other players or developers. WoW and its predecesors will continue to do just fine regardless of my opinions, and the same goes for players. If my opinions make a player from any of the MMO games angry because they feel vehemently that my post is a direct attack on them, well sorry i offended you but it doesnt change my opinion. Go back to playing your game, im not stopping ya.

Also I have been playing MMO's since MUD was the only option, so dont assume I am a fresh face to the scene. I have played many games over the years and im just calling as "I" see it. Which of course is my right. So please dont be angry because "I" posted this. You may feel strongly about people who just rage about there hatred for games that dont suit there taste but im not raging, i have been discussing the topic with fellow gamers and garnishing knowlege and others opinions. Roger?

Originally posted by Icewhite

Any game that's so different that it qualifies as REAL change will earn a new Acronym anyway.

"I'm playing that new MMOPRAGUTVUS that just came out this month."

Eve is very different from the games before it and is still counted as a MMORPG.

Nah, change is when a game feels different from the rest and you actually needs to learn a new way of playing it. 

The lack of change for now means that you could learn MMOs by playing the 15 year old Meridian 59 and still move right to the new game Rift without changing strategy that much, combat is more or less still the same.

sorry loke666 since eve is a pretty open game no one has a role they have to take just a role they might want to take so since it skill based i cant agree with your judgement

Originally posted by Loke666

Eve is very different from the games before it and is still counted as a MMORPG.

But the MMOFPS aren't, or the CORPs, or the MOBAs?

The point is, if you're really dreaming of something markedly different from "standard" MMO game play, you're going to earn yourself a new acronym.  :shrug:

i still want to argue against this since in eve you build who you are compared to picked a class and acting that class out in eve if you want t specialize destroyers you can even if its not to your advatange. just being that pirate that works in that range actually works in that range in limited range, ie balancing itself. also if you want to be the other guys in eve that run around in cruisers/ big ships you can and probab;y will so that.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loke666

Eve is very different from the games before it and is still counted as a MMORPG.

But the MMOFPS aren't, or the CORPs, or the MOBAs?

The point is, if you're really dreaming of something markedly different from "standard" MMO game play, you're going to earn yourself a new acronym.  :shrug:

Yes and no. The term MMO was really coined by Lord British for UO, it wasn't exactly the first MMO, Meridian 59 and the Realm are a year older but since they also are counted as MMOs the term is rather broad.

CORPGs and MOBAs (the last term is really new BTW) are not MMOs since they don't have an open world. You can't randomly run into other players. So no real Massive in them.

MMOFPS on the other hand is not RPGs. They are just FPS games in a open world and belong to the FPS genre.

Single player RPGs are pretty wide in mechanics, compare Bethesdas Elder scrolls serie to Biowares Baldurs gate games. Take any kind of RPG game and add an open world and more than 128 players on a persistant server and you get a MMORPG.

MMORPGs don't need stuff like levels since not all RPGs have them. They don't need the holy triad either. You can innovate a lot, or transfer pen and paper RPg mechanics that never been in a computer game before and it still will be a MMORPG.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loke666

Eve is very different from the games before it and is still counted as a MMORPG.

But the MMOFPS aren't, or the CORPs, or the MOBAs?

The point is, if you're really dreaming of something markedly different from "standard" MMO game play, you're going to earn yourself a new acronym.  :shrug:

I agree here. But I think that a full on change of acronym wont occur until there is a definate genre split in relation to the kind of game I was shooting for with my OP. I mean MMOFPS is still fledgeling really, or I think. I dont know much about them as the only MMOFPS i ever played was Planetside but then it wasnt all THAT massive at the time. Also i think you have to define what a 'role' is. Is it a class that is predetermined by the developers oh which you must choose between? Or is it simply whatever your role is inside of your play style?

If, and im sure there are games with this, you had a game that didnt have a class system to choose from but rather you chose to develop whatever skills you decided to specialize in and could mix and match say stereotypical healer/fighter type skills then your not a "class" but you still have a role. So are you saying that in your opinion Jack, if there are no predetermined classes then it doesnt qualify as an rpg? I can see your point but I would have to argue with you on that classification. My opinion is an rpg is a game that lets you 'play' your roll (shape who you become without limitation) OR 'choose' your role (pick from a predetermined set of roles). You still have a role to play either way.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loke666

Eve is very different from the games before it and is still counted as a MMORPG.

But the MMOFPS aren't, or the CORPs, or the MOBAs?

The point is, if you're really dreaming of something markedly different from "standard" MMO game play, you're going to earn yourself a new acronym.  :shrug:

Yes and no. The term MMO was really coined by Lord British for UO, it wasn't exactly the first MMO, Meridian 59 and the Realm are a year older but since they also are counted as MMOs the term is rather broad.

CORPGs and MOBAs (the last term is really new BTW) are not MMOs since they don't have an open world. You can't randomly run into other players. So no real Massive in them.

MMOFPS on the other hand is not RPGs. They are just FPS games in a open world and belong to the FPS genre.

Single player RPGs are pretty wide in mechanics, compare Bethesdas Elder scrolls serie to Biowares Baldurs gate games. Take any kind of RPG game and add an open world and more than 128 players on a persistant server and you get a MMORPG.

MMORPGs don't need stuff like levels since not all RPGs have them. They don't need the holy triad either. You can innovate a lot, or transfer pen and paper RPg mechanics that never been in a computer game before and it still will be a MMORPG.

I agree with loki as well. RPG is an RPG. There are many different types with different combat styles and storytelling, linear and non linear, free roam or not, class system or not, even Borderlands which is a strange mash up of rpg/fps. You can take ANY rpg and throw in thousands of people online play and suddenly BAM you have a MMORPG. RPG allows for so much variation that I am just truly suprised we dont see more unique titles. Borderlands was by no mean traditional but beyond a doubt was an RPG with guns. It was a great game because it did something different and did it rather well all the while remaining an RPG. IMHO as always.

I do however believe that there will be an acronym change down the road simply because there will be much debate on (given some company makes some drastically DIFFERENT game while WoW and its dopplegangers still reign supreme) wether or not said title is an MMORPG or something different. Borderlands for example was the first FPRPS or First Person Role Playing Shooter. In my mind it was just an RPG but with guns but it actually got its own acronym :)

Edit: The debate thing is actually unlikely lol us as players may debate it but I coubt corperations would, and in all actuality I thinkg Gearbox gave Borderlands that acronym, so then maybe a dev may make a game that is pretty much an MMO but that they clasify it with a new acronym to set themselves apart from the rest. That seems more logical.............i think :P

Originally posted by Axehilt

All the "real change" gets ignored because people say "but that's not an MMORPG" to anything that's different.

(Disregarding the hardcore minority who says that even the MMORPGs aren't MMORPGs.)

Heh, if an "MMORPG" has mechanics in place that you can solo until level cap, not have to conduct any sort of interaction with other players (buying potions on the AH doesn't count), then it's a good claim that "MMORPG" isn't one after all.

It's a SPRPG requiring an internet connection.  Nothing more.

---

Originally posted by Loke666

I agree that the combat mechanics needs to be improved, but I fear that your player created attacks just wont work. I hate to balance something like that.

---

What would be so hard to balance about it? I can think of a very easy way:

Columns: Friend, Foe, Environment, Self, AoE (for a few examples)
Rows: Stun, Avoid, Speed, Status, Elevation, etc.

Balance the columns and rows, and everything that fits inside of them would be automatically balanced except in odd circumstances.

-. "Friend" might add 8% to mana cost
-. "Foe" might add 25% to mana cost
-. "Self" would add nothing to mana cost
-. "AoE" might add 5%(5%n) to mana cost, where "n" is the number of players (1.05(1.05n))
-. Being in a climate of ~80F degrees would add/subtract nothing to mana cost
-. Being in a climate of ~32F degrees would subtract 20% from cold spells, add 25% to fire spells

And with so many possibilities, it would rely almost entirely on the players' balancing act rather than the developers. Cookie cutter builds would be pretty much non-existent because people will immediately build their character to make them irrelevant.

I have no delusions of grandeur for this system and am just thinking this shit up off the top of my head. The point is, the only limit to an MMOG is the risk the people with money are willing to take. Would the majority of people love a system like the one I've given in the thread? Not if it came out tomorrow, but after GW2, The Secret World, and other MMOGs that are moving away from "set skills," I imagine people will warm up to the idea.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by Axehilt

All the "real change" gets ignored because people say "but that's not an MMORPG" to anything that's different.

(Disregarding the hardcore minority who says that even the MMORPGs aren't MMORPGs.)

Heh, if an "MMORPG" has mechanics in place that you can solo until level cap, not have to conduct any sort of interaction with other players (buying potions on the AH doesn't count), then it's a good claim that "MMORPG" isn't one after all.

It's a SPRPG requiring an internet connection.  Nothing more.

Does that not make it an MMORPG for the people who choose to level with others? That's like saying TOR doesn't have a story because people have the option to avoid it. :/