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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » When will we see a REAL change in MMO's?

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 14

OP  10/06/11 1:23:37 PM#1

I just thought I would start a thread of my own, regardless of how many other threads might try to tackle similar topics.

I want to discuss the kind of changes MMORPGs should make. Where does the player community want to see them go? We already know the current formula that, to be honest, is just OLD and boring as all hell. Game mechanics within MMO's havent changed in years. In small ways maybe, but nothing has really changed the 'face' of MMO's. Its still the same ugly face we all know and love, but desperatly want to inject with botox.


So I know that this whole DYNAMIC EVENT thing is something new to the genre, or is at least being adopted by some big titles. To me though its not much. I have played RIFT for about 2 months and while I did enjoy the random events, thats all they were. Random events. The events had no weight to them. They were simply random and scripted, and really irritating once you played through the same scripted event twice, maybe three times or more a day, even a week. To me thats not dynamic at all. To me thats repetative and lacking in originality.


I know that its a change in the right direction though, and for that I am thankful. Guildwars 2, imho, is upping the anty with thier version of the DYNAMIC EVENT system. They claim that if the centuars attack said villiage and the players do not succesfully defend it then the centaurs will kill all the townsfolk and lay claim to the village. They will even fortify it and expand taking over other nearby locales until someone does something about it. That all sounds really cool and a step forward with this event system but I ask this: If we the players, push the attacking force back after they have destroyed a village or 2 and fortified them all centaur like, once we defeat them will all the townsfolk magically appear again? And to that extent will they be the same exact NPC's that died at the hands of the centaurs? Will the villages instantly look like they did before they were sieged? Or did they change to begin with?


Another thing that hasnt been changed in seemingly forever is the very stagnant and extremely un-interactive form of combat in MMO's. Sure there are a few that have dynamic combat, but how dynamic is it truthfully? The same system of point, click, wait for ability to recharge, click again, press 3 for fireball, wait, click again, chew fingernails, click again, bash head against keyboard simply to give my head a workout, is getting tiresome and boring. Playing a game that way for hours on end really makes me feel like im wasting away in my computer chair. Why not some combat that really gets your adrenaline pumping? The ability to slash my sword around in realtime. I want to dodge enemy attacks and parry them. I want to cast magic at a tree branch and have it fall on top of my enemy, or toss a bottle of oil on the ground beneath there feet then set it on fire. Combat needs to be dynamic and diverse. Make me defeat my enemies in ways I never would have thought of. Maybe my enemy is a level 20 orc warchief and im only lvl 12, but through my skills with blade and magic, and my ACTUAL intelligence I am able to defeat him, narrowly escaping death through some means of strategy and endurance.


Story!!! I love doing quests. I like to feel like im the local hero and I can help out the people. But why? The quests in current MMO's are equally as stagnant as DYNAMIC EVENTS and COMBAT. Go kill 10 kobolds, gather 13 blossoms of this flower, blah blah blah. Even if i kill 10 kobolds what happens? Nothing. I get my loot and exp and head to the next robot quest giver. I want quests with meaning.


I want to be sent on a quest to find a local womans missing child only to find that shes being held captive by a renegade band of thieves and fight my way into there base of operations and heroically rescue the child, bring her back to her mother and recieve my reward only to find out that her mother had sold her to these thieves and when shes caught by me she fights back and I am forced to kill her leaving her child parentless (dads dead I guess lol). After that I have the choice to take her under my wing if im feeling compasionate or she gets sent to the orphanage. I want quests with plots and twists and turns. I want to be made sad, happy, or angry at the characters in the game. I never FEEL in MMO's. No sense of urgency, pain, anger, sadness, overwhelming joy.


Graphics are so far behind in MMO's as well. I realize that WoW is a style more fitting to its RTS roots and thats fine. Simply put though, the average computer can handle xbox 360 and ps3 level graphics. You can spend the same money it costs for a console system and upgrade your video card and outperform consoles. Why are the graphics in MMO's so outdated? Furthermore im tired of MMO's taking on such a cartoon look? Im not 15 yrs old, and while a lot of players are teenagers, im sure a good chunk would agree with me that catroon is yesteryear.


I would like to see an MMO' utilize some newage graphics. Unreal 3 on DX11. Something that will make our jaws drop. I do not want an MMO that tries to look like real life, but something close to it, something gritty and believeable, with characters that are equally as beliveable, and a story that is simply EPIC in scope, that unfolds with style and grabs you from the moment the game begins and wont let go till the end.


Maybe im asking for too much? Maybe this wont happen for YEARS to come, but I think that if we as the players raise our expectations then we will start seeing what we want in our games rather than the crap we get fed in our computer desk high chairs. Anyways, this is simply my opinion and nothing more. If you share my vision then great lets discuss it. If you dont agree and you hate my guts, then go on and tell me about it i got all day. Either way start talkin people. Thanks




Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/10
Posts: 839

10/06/11 1:27:47 PM#2

a REAL change in mmorpg's..


its a booming cash cow of theamparks and cash shops...devs and companys know this..they wont change untill the gamer dose or untill they think they are loseing money


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/10
Posts: 2095

10/06/11 1:29:06 PM#3
Originally posted by odinsrath

a REAL change in mmorpg's..


its a booming cash cow of theamparks and cash shops...devs and companys know this..they wont change untill the gamer dose or untill they think they are loseing money


Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/05
Posts: 3016

Haggis Humper

10/06/11 1:31:55 PM#4

At the current stage of technology i think we've seen them go as far as they can. Until said technology can go as far as looking realistic whether its on a screen or through VR we'll be in for more of the same for quite some time, the mechanics themselves wont change and will just be remixes of whats already been seen.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/11
Posts: 98

10/06/11 1:43:13 PM#5

I agree with RIFT's dynamic event.  It was just annoying and repetitve... hardly a game seller.  

In terms of uninteractive combat... more than anything I think this is a function of bandwidth and server strain.  Not much data has to be processed with the way most MMOs are now.  When you start adding in gameplay mechanics that has to be processed in real time, remember that the server isn't just processing your gameplay, but hundreds of other people at the same time, and you as a player have to receive all this data from the server for it to show up on your screen too.

Quests with meaning the way you've described is simply impossible.  If you kill 10 kobolds and they don't come back, what's option B for everyone else(and then C, then D then E, and so on when each previous option becomes impossible)?  While I agree that story is massively lacking in MMOs, there are too many variables to take into account if you want the world to dynamically change.  You can't have a central bad guy that can be engaged because if he's killed and doesn't come back, then 'evil' seeps away and all of a sudden you have a game with absolutely nothing to do and a game you can't succeed in because someone killed the big guy before you did.

Graphics I agree with.  Generally they're low for MMOs because they want as many people to play them as possible.  The internal costs of running an MMO are much larger after release than say a shooter where the developers/publishers keep up a few servers to make sure the game is always playable online.  MMOs have more servers, MMO servers have to be monitored at all times, MMOs also have support staff and billing staff.

EDIT:  To be more positive, I'd love to see a new take on MMOs where every month or two, a new 'episode' is released that changes the world and advances the storyline.  The downside is that coming in late to something like this would suck because of things you missed prior to you joining up.  MMO expansion packs often do this but on a grand scale and it feels disjointed to go from expansion pack to expansion pack.  If they were to break it up into one or two month chunks and show the changes taking place in semi-real time, I think it would be more effective definitely in terms of story.  WoW does this with their expansion preps, like you saw NPCs building what was to become the harbor when the expansion came out but if they were to do this kind of thing all the way through it would be more interesting.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 14

OP  10/06/11 2:49:38 PM#6

I agree with all of you really, i mean I was more or less ranting and getting some things off my chest lol. I unfortunately dont have any friends here where I just moved. Let alone anyone who is a gamer to talk about this stuff with. But also I never thought about the networking aspect of it all. Although I know that it is common where i live for the general connection to be around 12down and 8up that still is more than what the majority is even able access let alone afford. I guess one day when every home is directly connected via fiber well be able to see the dynamic combat aspect really bloom.


As far as graphics are concerned I know that they have no impact on connection so why not I still ask. As I stated previously I dont expect real life or VR type graphics but as an example look at the modern shooters and how life like there animations, models, terain, and structures all are. And almost half of that realism comes from good texturing and animations. I realize that MMO games are in it for the money but I think that some company should get smart and break all the molds and they would be suprised at the publicity and notary they would get. Someone should set a new standard and bear that standard a while.


As far as story is concerned I also see what your saying about changing the world so much so often that other players would come in fresh without a clue as to whats happening but what if when a world changing event happened there were changes made to starting areas to include NPC dialouge and quests that would bring new players up to speed and throw them right into the mix. I am curious to see how Bioware does things in Old Republic. It seems very ambitious and worth a look.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3206

I am more than some of my parts

10/06/11 3:26:13 PM#7

I think that it's time for a major improvement in user interface for playing MMO's and computing in general.

Neural interfacing

HD VR glasses

These are just baby steps to what we need to achieve, but it is coming.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

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Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 9066

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

10/06/11 3:29:49 PM#8

When did you see a real change in FPS, RTS, and racing games?


Basically inside a genre the games are all the same....

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)


Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 8050

Logic be damned!

10/06/11 3:30:36 PM#9

How long since we've seen "real change" in FPS games? In RTS? In RPGs?

I mean, there are only so many "real changes" to make.

How do you even DEFINE real change?


I could tell you "FPS games haven't changed at all since Quake" and I'd be right. 100% right...

IF you didn't qualify what constitutes a change.

Hence, 99% of the BULLSHIT posting people do on this website.


I've probably been lurking for way, way too long.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 8050

Logic be damned!

10/06/11 3:33:36 PM#10

One day someone will make a MMORPG with a massive open world that also has plenty of instanced group and solo and raid content and also has the most in depth and complex crafting system that is also easily accessible and the game will have amazing open world PvP with no set factions AND instanced PvP battlegrounds and arenas AND pre-set factions you can join and it will have 99 races and have skill based progression AND have custom classes and talent trees...


I've probably been lurking for way, way too long.


Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

10/06/11 3:43:38 PM#11

I think the "open world" idea is a little archaic. We need a game with a huge Social area with interactive mini-games and crafting. where all levelig, questing, raiding  etc are done through instances using a great LDF tool.

The days of Huge worlds with huge zones are over. How many Eq, Eq2, WoW, Lotro etc etc have all these Huge massive  EMPTY zones that noone uses. Like all things in life convenience and efficiency should lead design.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 14

OP  10/06/11 3:50:31 PM#12

LOL i see your point BadSpock, no need for rudeness though. Althogh I guess I should have chose my words a little better in the title of my OP. That being said FPS games have only changed as much as people will personally belive they changed, as was said: What really IS change? And to answer I suppose its the eye of the beholder/opinion so to speak.


I think shooters have changed dramatically.....since the days of DOOM and Wuake anyhow. Recently that genre is also stagnated quite a bit. But speaking of change I woudl say Battlefield has really went the extra mile over the years. Maybe not in the sense of drastic change every release, but they have pioneered quit a bit of ground. There biggest claim to fame is FPS/driving/flying all wrapped up together making for a more dynamic playing field. Not to mention they do all of this rather well with up to 64 players on one server.......shooting, driving tanks and hummers, flying jets and helicopters, all manner of dynamic interaction and different game mechanics online. Its quit impressive honestly.


Anyhow back to MMO talk. If Battlefield can tackle the mechanics of vehicles, how they drive or fly (physics wise, and there controll mechanics), weapons mounted, more than one player controlling them, and deal with players on the ground with all manners of weapons, all working rather harmoniously together with 64 folks at once, then I can see a MMO utilizing at least elderscrolls style combat on a larger scale. We will see though.


Also in my OP I described what "I" thought was real "change" and that was pretty much what I wanted to discuss. I know a lot of posters here arent "just" gamers and have a diverse knowledge of various subjects within computer technology so maybe someone has something to say about the limits of our current technology and how it will play a role in shaping the game in years to come.


Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/11
Posts: 438

10/06/11 3:53:39 PM#13

Comparing RTS/FPS/RPG games with MMORPGs just doesn't work.

In most genres, you go through set challenges while listening to the story. The story actually matters, because it has an ending. There is a conclusion you're working toward, right?

MMORPGs by design do not have endings. The story gets the back of the bus while gameplay, features, immersion and combat sit up front.

If an MMORPG has an amazing story, but is practically a clone of the last game, it will take the following route: Sell a bunch, have a boatload of subscribers until they finish the "story," then take a huge dive once they realize they've already played the game.


MMORPGs are required to innovate more than any other game genre, so please stop making pointless comparisons.

Sarcasm is not a crime!


Elite Member

Joined: 9/13/09
Posts: 1040

10/06/11 3:56:23 PM#14
Originally posted by Kenze

I think the "open world" idea is a little archaic. We need a game with a huge Social area with interactive mini-games and crafting. where all levelig, questing, raiding  etc are done through instances using a great LDF tool.

The days of Huge worlds with huge zones are over. How many Eq, Eq2, WoW, Lotro etc etc have all these Huge massive  EMPTY zones that noone uses. Like all things in life convenience and efficiency should lead design.

This is a great statement, and so true.


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Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 14

OP  10/06/11 3:59:01 PM#15

Kenze, i think that is a great idea and one that could make all the aspects that i personally want change in, more than possible. Somewhat original guildwars. This would make the instanced areas for questing and leveling and so on easily tailored for a group, thus emphasizing on great story telling and game mechanics. I hope guildwars 2 isnt ruined by its open world design, the instanced questing is one of the things I really liked about it in the first game. :) Cheers for adding your input


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Joined: 11/14/07
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MMOs are entertainment, not lifestyles.

10/06/11 4:00:23 PM#16
Originally posted by grawss

MMORPGs are required to innovate more than any other game genre, so please stop making pointless comparisons.

Please prove this statement.  To me the MMO genre encompasses a lot of different styles.  I don't think it is as much innovation people want, but a game that fit their wants perfectly.

"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio

Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!


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Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2168

May the game be ever in your favor.

10/06/11 4:05:40 PM#17

It does make me sad to see the countless mmo's that all seem to be the same.

Same types of quests, same ideas, and same character classes.

I am hoping that GW2 will be as dynamic and new as it looks and as it claims to be.

Otherwise the wait will continue for an mmo that is trully "new".



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Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3548


10/06/11 4:05:42 PM#18
Originally posted by Kenze

I think the "open world" idea is a little archaic. We need a game with a huge Social area with interactive mini-games and crafting. where all levelig, questing, raiding  etc are done through instances using a great LDF tool.

The days of Huge worlds with huge zones are over. How many Eq, Eq2, WoW, Lotro etc etc have all these Huge massive  EMPTY zones that noone uses. Like all things in life convenience and efficiency should lead design.


I cry for the future of MMO's 


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Joined: 2/05/11
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OP  10/06/11 4:08:47 PM#19

@grawss, what you just said is exactly why MMOs are needing change which is the topic of this thread. Your pretty much saying MMOs are fine how they are and CANT change? Also i dont think my comparrison is pointless at all, its actually very relavant to the discussion. Im not comparing them in terms of "i wish MMOs were more like shooters" but more or less that shooters (battlefield as an example) are pushing the limit on what we are able to achieve with online play .


Also there is an end to every game no matter how you look at it. If you play WOW like its life as you know it, and you complete the current expansion too fast then you are left with not much else to do until the next expansion is released and the story is EXPANDED so that you have more content. So your logic has a hole in it. No offense though, im just pointing it out. The story can be as intricate and grand as any other game and still be an MMO with an ending, or at least a conclusion to the current content that is available am i right? I think that I am otherwise WoW and others like it would have been long dead.


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Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/06/11 4:30:47 PM#20
Originally posted by Kenze

I think the "open world" idea is a little archaic. We need a game with a huge Social area with interactive mini-games and crafting. where all levelig, questing, raiding  etc are done through instances using a great LDF tool.

The days of Huge worlds with huge zones are over. How many Eq, Eq2, WoW, Lotro etc etc have all these Huge massive  EMPTY zones that noone uses. Like all things in life convenience and efficiency should lead design.

WoW, Lotro  open?  they are opposite of open....


Besides they are empty cause of levels ,  level mechanics make all lower level content instantly not important when you outlevel it , then it forces developer to constantly pump new zones , those new zones have to be made quickly and they are not interesting mostly ,and made only to get throught it once and forget.

It is just bad design.


Just throw away whole level concept and it solves sooo many problems with content and zones. 


But guess many people are so focused on 'level' that they don't even know that you can create perfectly good , mmorpg with progression but no levels at all..


But apart of that 

"where all levelig, questing, raiding  etc are done through instances using a great LDF tool. "

For me it would be totally horrible thing. Like awful. If you want something like that , hope you find it. Really. Though for me personally this would not be mmorpg anymore. I would not play it as well even if someone would sponsor subscription for this game for me. You're free to think otherwise and gl in your search.  

I am amazed though anyone would want something like that...


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