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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » Korea May Ban D3 over Real Money Auction House trading

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173 posts found
  jinxxed0

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 845

9/27/11 12:47:27 PM#141

I find it funny so many people hate the RMT in Diablo 3. I'm considering getting D3 because of it. Its a great chance to make some cash. I already know its possible to make mony with games with Second Life and Entropia, so I'l give this a shot. You can still have fun and buy stuff with gold. And then just sell stuff for cash or gold if its not good enough. Sounds perfect. I guess if you're one of those people caught up in having to have the absolute best gear, then that sucks.

 

Idk why people are still complaining, just go play torch light. Complaining about it here wont change D3. 

  User Deleted
9/27/11 12:52:38 PM#142
Originally posted by just1opinion
Originally posted by Talin
Originally posted by romanator0
Originally posted by thegypsyking
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

I disagree. THE RMAH is the in-game equivalent to eBay. Someone is providing a good for a price. You choose whether or not to purchase it with your real money. You know what you are purchasing, you know for how much; what is a gamble here? The fact that someone may not buy your item? That's not gambling at all.

 

 

The SELLER is the gambler.  Rely on the roll of dice to get a good item to sell, then pay Blizz for your chance to sell it on the AH.  If you don't sell it....you lose your bet that you WOULD sell it.

I know....you're still not convinced.  Doesn't matter to me.  I'm going to play Torchlight, so....my interest in D3 is only because I played D2 LOD Online and remember it fondly.

The seller is not a gambler, he is not paying per roll of loot. If he gets shit loot he doesn't have to pay to sell it.

 

What you are charged for on the auction is an auction fee. Strangely enough auction fees and auctions are not gambling.

 

 

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/27/11 12:58:49 PM#143


Originally posted by niceguy3978


Originally posted by sldrop


Originally posted by marinrider



Originally posted by romanator0



Originally posted by thegypsyking



Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.


How so?
When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.
The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.
In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.
Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.


This AH is not gambling.  If it was than any form of real auction would be gambling.  Gambling is when your betting against numbers or odds.  With something like Trading the stock market (which by your definition is gambling), RMAH, or any other auction or even "Mary Kay" or tuperware selling, its all based on your skill and your devotion.  
 


I was thinking like you too @marinrider 
but after reading http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html it change my thoughts.
Whereas WOW had fixed loot tables and drops in an "Achiever Economy", Diablo 3 random wins are "indeterministic" and everything has a random chance of dropping varying levels of value. There is no skill required in WHAT drops.. you can't control it, it's like a roulette wheel. So, the "loot generation" is purely a game of chance with no skill. However, there is another game of chance (and skill required) to get TO the loot generation components.. and that's by killing a virtual monster. The gambling part is what the monster might drop when you roll that dice.


By this logic though, some things would be legal to sell on ebay and others wouldn't.  Most collectable card games for example, have common, rare, ultrarare, etc.  Would selling those be considered gambling because you have a random chance of getting them?  It is pure chance if i open a pack and get one of the "ultra rare" cards, it takes no skill to tear open a wrapper.



If players exhibited behavior similar to gambling addiction in relation to collectable cards, then it would get banned in South Korea. It is irrelevant what the activity entails. It only matters what the result is. If the end result is that players will exhibit gambling behavior, up to and including gambling addiction type behavior, then the game or the game system will get banned.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

9/27/11 1:00:09 PM#144
Originally posted by empyros

/popcorn

~

Pertinent reply by Vadoff:

What’s really funny about this is Korea is the KING when it comes to microtransactions, and virtual items bought with real currency. Almost all of their online games have systems like that.

So it’s really boggling, why D3′s real money trade would be considered “gambling”. I think the Korean game reviewers are confused about the randomization aspects… gambling is about risk, there’s no risk at all with D3. You can’t ever LOSE money. It’s not like the items you buy from D3 have a 25% chance of disappearing once bought, or something like that. It makes no sense.

Posting something requires an up front fee.  If it doesn't sell, it's money lost.  Except for Blizzard who wins no matter what happens.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1457

9/27/11 1:05:54 PM#145
Originally posted by SaintViktor

Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

 

Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

This is more a issue for games like some of the PWI games where you can buy a mystery box off the market with a chance of a rare cool prize or more often some basic level stuff.  I don't really see a difference between that and a slot machine to be honest.

D3's system I think would be hard pressed to say is gambling since you know exactly what your buying.  Even the argument that you are trading time for a chance at a good item seems a bit weak to me.   Lots of activities could be called gambling if that's the case.  Is treasure hunting on a beach with a metal detector gambling than?

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

9/27/11 1:12:48 PM#146
Originally posted by Deathwing980

are any of you guys listening? They can post up unidentified gear onto the auction house, and identification scrolls along with it... they are trying to say that if a player purchases an UNIDENTIFIED ITEM they will have to pay real money for it for the price that the player sets then identify it, and if its not what they were priced to be or what it was supposed to be... then THATS GAMBLING

 

Remember Wirt? and the gambling system he had for in game gold.... its going to be exactly that with real money though on the auction house

I actually was on the side of this not being gambling, but if this is true, then yes, gambling is the only way to describe it.  It's the same premise as lotteries where you pay money for the chance of winning something big, but the ticket itself has no intrinsic value.  But before the numbers are revealed (ie, the item is identified), you don't know what you're going to get.  Most likely, you'll get nothing.  How this isn't gambling, I don't know.

And yes, lotteries are legal, but in my country, they need to be licensed by the provincial government.  Who will be licensing the great Blizzard lottery and in which jurisdiction?

  Roccprofit

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/10
Posts: 98

AI has nothing on natural stupidity.

9/27/11 1:31:13 PM#147

 The legal problem is really only the tip of the iceburg and  I think many are over looking that and not looking at the real trouble this will bring.

 I have seen many stories about this person or that person not paying there bills to be able to play there mmo in some really sad cases some of these people have died chasing a digitized dream. Add this system and some kid that has no concept of money will be running up mom and dad's credit card running the family into finacial troubles so they can have that "gotta have" item.

 This is no better then gold farming and the idiots that buy gold because they are to lazy to go make it IN A GAME! Gold farming and anything like it ruin game economy's because people think that there is some point to making a lot of imaginary gold or in hitting the gold cap. There is no reward or anything given for doing this and it is a pointless endeavor.

I have never had to buy gold/credits/whatever in any game I have played getting the money for anything I want is just a matter of playing the game and doing the things that make said money and I have NEVER found myself lacking for something I wanted/needed to inprove my charactor.

 People take imaaginary credit's/gold way to seriously, look at all the gold farmers that sell gold, they are willing to break laws to sell there gold to people. They are willing to violate peoples privacy and steal what they need just to make money selling gold. Make all these transactions invole real money and you think people are self centered and rude in games now, you have seen nothing yet.

 Games are suppose to be about stepping away from the real world for a bit and having a good time the same way hollywood got it's start making movies to let people step away from the troubles of the depresion and forget there troubles for a little bit, Bring real money into it in this form and it will ruin the entire point of the game.

  Madimorga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1780

9/27/11 1:36:45 PM#148

Let's see here, what are my options, given the ACTUAL state of RMT (including cash shops) in MMOs?:

 

1.  I can compete with players who break the rules against buying gold by breaking those rules myself.

 

2.  I can refuse to break the rules and be at a disadvantage to players that do break them.

 

3.  I can buy items that affect stats from the game company on top of paying a sub and buying expansions, therefore encouraging the game company to view me as an ATM machine.

 

4.  I can refuse to buy items that affect stats from the game company on top of paying a sub and be at a disadvantage against players who do buy from the store.

 

4.  I can play a game that allows me to buy items from players and sell items to players for real money while still staying within the rules.  True, the game company making that game will get a cut of the transactions, so it would depend on how often I played the game, what the cut was and how fortunate I was with drops as to whether I'd come out even without damaging my enjoyment of the game, or even come out ahead (at least getting to play the game for free).

 

I'll take #4, please.  Or the total eradication of cash shop + sub models and the total eradication of illicit RMT.  Which we all know by now isn't going to happen.  In other words, I'm interested to see how this will turn out. 

 

Meanwhile, the government of South Korea probably wants to ban this, not because of gambling, and certainly not over some objection to RMT, but because it's easier to keep track of game companies operating in their country plus keep track of a few gold farmers operating illegally than it is to keep track of money in a giant, unregulated pixel market with a lot more people getting involved.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Celcius

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 928

9/27/11 1:36:50 PM#149

If you read the article it is basically some dude saying "this other game didn't make it past the rating board cause it had items for sale" it does not actually say that Korea may ban Diablo 3. That is just speculation, the article title is misleading. If the rating board in Korea would not allow Diablo 3 sales with the RMAH, then they will simply disable it for that country. 

  Roccprofit

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/10
Posts: 98

AI has nothing on natural stupidity.

9/27/11 2:21:01 PM#150
Originally posted by Madimorga

Let's see here, what are my options, given the ACTUAL state of RMT (including cash shops) in MMOs?:

 

1.  I can compete with players who break the rules against buying gold by breaking those rules myself.

 

2.  I can refuse to break the rules and be at a disadvantage to players that do break them.

 

3.  I can buy items that affect stats from the game company on top of paying a sub and buying expansions, therefore encouraging the game company to view me as an ATM machine.

 

4.  I can refuse to buy items that affect stats from the game company on top of paying a sub and be at a disadvantage against players who do buy from the store.

 

4.  I can play a game that allows me to buy items from players and sell items to players for real money while still staying within the rules.  True, the game company making that game will get a cut of the transactions, so it would depend on how often I played the game, what the cut was and how fortunate I was with drops as to whether I'd come out even without damaging my enjoyment of the game, or even come out ahead (at least getting to play the game for free).

 

I'll take #4, please.  Or the total eradication of cash shop + sub models and the total eradication of illicit RMT.  Which we all know by now isn't going to happen.  In other words, I'm interested to see how this will turn out. 

 

Meanwhile, the government of South Korea probably wants to ban this, not because of gambling, and certainly not over some objection to RMT, but because it's easier to keep track of game companies operating in their country plus keep track of a few gold farmers operating illegally than it is to keep track of money in a giant, unregulated pixel market with a lot more people getting involved.


 you forgot

5. You can play a game involing the buying and selling of imaginary items using real money, although subs fees can be viewed this way, if you look at it from a reality point of view you are paying a sub to acess someone else's property, the game and why should they not be paid for there effort? If you go on vacation and rent a room or a car and go see a movie do you own them ? no you don't. If you want to see it again you pay again just like next month you pay your sub again.

 Prices in wow were out of control on the auction house, I can not count the number of times I have seen an item on the auction house that the game said was worth 10-20gp and the sellers had it marked for 50k gp ..... People did that because some idiot saw the price, went and bought gold and paid that price thereby creating the illusion that people would pay that price so others jacked up there prices which caused more fools to go to the gold farmers to get the gold to make that purchase.

I have seen in mmo's people running bots to get that item, blocking access to area where said item drops, using exploits and dheats to make there gold.

 I have seen people join a group and steal the most valuable item that drops screwing everyone else to make credits.

That was for IMAGINARY gold. If you think that people will not camp/farm things and put them on the auction house for insane prices for real money and that some fool won't buy it if the price is to high then you are fooling yourself.

 All these cash shops springing up and people using the arguement that they are better because there is no sub are just really bad at math. I have played a lot of "free 2 play" games with a cash shop and in every case it cost at least 15-20 per month just to keep up with the best and newest gear. You can't load out a charactor for less then $90 every 6 moths or so and more often then not it is more like $100-$150 which that price every 6 months works out to right about $300 for the year.... I rather pay my $15 sub costing me $180 for the year thanks.

 People paid upwards of $5k U.S for pre cu jedi just so they would not have to grind the charactor them selfs, I have seen fully geared wow toons going on ebay for $300-$1000. I have not looked in several months but, that is what people were paying for IMAGINARY charactors.

 5K that is just short of 27 YEARS of game time @ $15 per month, 1K is about 5.5 years @ $15 per month.

 Let us assume that greed won't be a factor, and that people put items up for $5 each, the average toon has 10 slots, 9 armor and 1 weapon, there are more but, lets go with that for the moment, You just spent $50 IN ONE MONTH!!! in 2-3 months there is going to be more gear you want/need not to mention everyone has gotten use to buying crystals/stones/tapes/enchants whatever to improve there charactor ..... the price at LEAST just doubled to $100 per evey 3 months or so heck it can go to six months at that rate and you are still paying more then a sub. This mind you assuing people will be resonable when it comes to real money. If you believe they will be resonable, you do not know people very well.

 

  User Deleted
9/27/11 3:47:15 PM#151

I think that the RMAH is going into dangerous territory with the law in different countries.  I think if a case came to court in the UK  judges might throw out any cases about ownership over virtual items.  I just cant see value of a virtual item being upheld.  I think its going to open a can of worms up for the legal system.  Virtual items should never have a real economy value imo.

 

 They are just that a virtual item, you will never own it as the publishers own and have the rights to everything you obtain virtually including the software to run any software, you only buy the licence to run it.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

9/27/11 3:51:18 PM#152

In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

9/27/11 4:21:46 PM#153
Originally posted by just1opinion

In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

9/27/11 4:26:10 PM#154
Originally posted by waynejr2

People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

 

Yes, item farming is what I'm talking about.  And someone somewhere will figure out how to automate that or in some other way cheat.  It will be similar to the dupping of SoJs from Diablo 2 LOD Online or something else, perhaps, but someone will find a way.  Then people will begin whining about it, then Blizzard will come up with some invasive software to be installed on your machine to prevent it.

 

We'll see how long this takes.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

9/27/11 4:33:14 PM#155
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by just1opinion

In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

9/27/11 4:36:19 PM#156
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by just1opinion

In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

 

I agree with you.  I think it's going to be a godawful fucking mess.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Madimorga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1780

9/28/11 7:42:04 AM#157

My first choice is and always will be the eradication of items in the store with pvp or pve affecting stats on them plus the total eradication of illicit gold farming.

 

Neither of which is going to happen.  In the case of the first one, too many players tolerate it to boycott it, and in the case of the second one, it was never the MMO devs'  fault in the first place, instead of quitting games that forced a gold or level grind, players kept playing those games while breaking the game rules by buying gold and leveling services. 

 

So given the situation, here is my hope for Diablo 3's real money auction house:  I hope that the gold farmers will give up in disgust and go 'play' something else because competition in a free and legal pixel market drives down prices and makes farming not worth it.  I'm interested to see if this will happen or if the farmers will find a way to be profitable despite having to compete with legitimate players.

 

Edit:  To use a real life example of legalizing a product or service:  How often do we hear about mafia involvement in the American alcoholic beverages industry these days?  Rarely, if ever.  During prohibition it was a different matter. 

 

 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Cavod

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 299

9/28/11 9:06:49 AM#158

 



Originally posted by lizardbones
 



Originally posted by just1opinion




Originally posted by Cavod
What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
 
Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
 
So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
 
I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.




 
You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.





No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.

Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.

 


No, they don't have a good point.

No, they


they

Stopped reading right there... well not really but I should have as the rest followed suit. 

 

P.S. You're wrong.  I can see what you're trying to do in this thread and I'm not buying it.

We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  Aori

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 1745

9/28/11 9:14:03 AM#159
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by just1opinion

In games where you can make money....even small amounts of money....people will always find a way to cheat the system.  D3 lovers, you just watch.....see how long it takes for someone to figure out a way to cheat the system and then for Blizzard to install some invasive software on your system which people will also bitch about.

People worry over gold farmers ought to be concerned about item farming for the AH.  Blizzard is making it legal to farm for real world cash.

Blizzard is also incentivizing other bad behaviors such as account theft, scamming, botting, exploiting, etc, by legitimizing the worth of virtual items gained through doing these things.

Thing is though it has already been like this for quite awhile and quite honestly it is nothing new.  If blizzard didn't have the RMAH the value would remain the same just it would be easier to spot the cheats.

IF by chance it turned into a mess it already depends on how blizzard cleans it up, they have been known to remove features that were bad for play so if its really bad they may remove it all together or as was said we'd get invasive software on our system to report everything to ads.com and obamacare.gov while saving us from evil hackers.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

9/28/11 9:52:10 AM#160


Originally posted by Cavod
 




Originally posted by lizardbones
 





Originally posted by just1opinion






Originally posted by Cavod
What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
 
Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
 
So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
 
I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.





 
You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.






No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.

Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.

 


No, they don't have a good point.



No, they




they


Stopped reading right there... well not really but I should have as the rest followed suit. 
 
P.S. You're wrong.  I can see what you're trying to do in this thread and I'm not buying it.




?

Cavod is neither a male nor a female name. So I used, "they". I was also not responding directly to you, so I didn't use the word, "you".

What am I trying to do to this thread, exactly?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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