Originally posted by sldrop

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by sldrop

Originally posted by rothbard

If AH is gambling, then every single action in life is gambling.  Uncertainty is always present.

take a look at http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

The itmes are all random drop and all items are control by bliz(drop rate, rarity and creation).

its different from other AH

How are drop rates part of the AH?  Sure they affect the supply of an item but so?  I thought the whole "pay to list" was what supposedly made it gambling?

 Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players 

That is not gambling... at all.

Players are paying (if its P2P) for access to the game, they are getting a service whether or not they get loot, that is not gambling.

The dev team being able to alter the loot drop rate is not gambling.

Using the auction house is not gambling, it is amazingly enough, an auction and any fee involved is a service cahre for being able to access the auction.

If players were paying for a random roll simulator for loot, without there being any game, they just stared at the screen as numbers flew by and they either got something or didn't then that would be gambling. But that clearly is not the case.

I am completely against the RMAH but it certainly is not gambling.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

If players were paying for a random roll simulator for loot, without there being any game, they just stared at the screen as numbers flew by and they either got something or didn't then that would be gambling. But that clearly is not the case.

 

Playing in front of a gambling machine in a casino that generate a random success rate, and playing in front of your computer in a game generating item worth real value with a random success rate is exactly the same. You use your time playing in both case, and yes you play some money games in both case.

Originally posted by Requiamer

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

If players were paying for a random roll simulator for loot, without there being any game, they just stared at the screen as numbers flew by and they either got something or didn't then that would be gambling. But that clearly is not the case.

 

Playing in front of a gambling machine in a casino that generate a random success rate, and playing in front of your computer in a game generating item worth real value with a random success rate is exactly the same. You use your time playing in both case, and yes you play some money games in both case.

You missed the point. You are NOT paying for a random number generator that will then give you money on a successful roll, you are paying for a video game replete with combat, pvp, pve and crafting.

If Diablo III offered nothing more than the ability to pay for a random roll with the chance of winning money then it would be the same. But it is not like that at all. Do you pay a fee each time you kill and loot something? Do you immediately get a payout if you loot some thing? Is there not actual typical game content that you are actually paying for? No.

You are paying for a video game and the ability to use an auction service. You are not paying multiple times for random rolls that will immediately pay you out in prize money.

Originally posted by Requiamer

 

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Originally posted by TGSOL

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Originally posted by lthompson94

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by st4t1ck

Most video game auctions house's have the buy now feature. how can it be named gambling if i click a button pay the cash and obtain an item. 

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I think what you're not "getting" is the correlation to gambling.  It's gambling for the SELLER, not the buyer in this case.  The seller has to pay listing fees and possibly a separate item fee (I don't think we know this yet) and then they have the CHANCE to sell the item.  Essentially....I can see whereas people could look at that as gambling.

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When you take a collectable to an auction, you have to pay to have it entered and auctioned.  It might not sell.  This happens every day in every state in every city and has no correlation to gambling.
When you run an ad to sell something in the newspaper, it might not sell, but you paid for the ad.  This is not gambling.
Sure "you took a gamble," that doesn't make it GAMBLING in a legal sense of the word.
Please people give up, it's not frickin gambling. 

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As someone who doesn't like the RMAH or what it represents, I have to agree. I just don't see how this is gambling. It seems you REALLY have to twist the definition to even come close to making it apply.

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I fail to see how it is not gambling. The simple virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling since you have no real value put into any of the objects. You don't know if tomorrow it will still exist, maintain its value or whatever, a game could close tomorrow and have your money sink in lala land. Their value is highly volatile. And it is a kind of volatile no other product can reach, even stuff that have no reality like a book or an idea isn't as volatile as a virtual item.

I do not agree that the virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling. That would mean that regular microtransactions, bought directly from a game company, would also be gambling.

You invest real money and time in every mmorpg, and you always have the risk that the game gets closed, that does not equal gambling imho.

For me gambling is putting money into something with the possibility of gaining more money based on chance.

Now I also acknowledge that various governments widened their legislation to cover all the angles, and that the RMAH may fall into grey areas.

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Originally posted by CyberWiz

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Originally posted by Requiamer
 

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Originally posted by TGSOL

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Originally posted by lthompson94

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by st4t1ck

Most video game auctions house's have the buy now feature. how can it be named gambling if i click a button pay the cash and obtain an item. 

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I think what you're not "getting" is the correlation to gambling.  It's gambling for the SELLER, not the buyer in this case.  The seller has to pay listing fees and possibly a separate item fee (I don't think we know this yet) and then they have the CHANCE to sell the item.  Essentially....I can see whereas people could look at that as gambling.

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When you take a collectable to an auction, you have to pay to have it entered and auctioned.  It might not sell.  This happens every day in every state in every city and has no correlation to gambling.
When you run an ad to sell something in the newspaper, it might not sell, but you paid for the ad.  This is not gambling.
Sure "you took a gamble," that doesn't make it GAMBLING in a legal sense of the word.
Please people give up, it's not frickin gambling. 

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As someone who doesn't like the RMAH or what it represents, I have to agree. I just don't see how this is gambling. It seems you REALLY have to twist the definition to even come close to making it apply.

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I fail to see how it is not gambling. The simple virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling since you have no real value put into any of the objects. You don't know if tomorrow it will still exist, maintain its value or whatever, a game could close tomorrow and have your money sink in lala land. Their value is highly volatile. And it is a kind of volatile no other product can reach, even stuff that have no reality like a book or an idea isn't as volatile as a virtual item.

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I do not agree that the virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling. That would mean that regular microtransactions, bought directly from a game company, would also be gambling.
You invest real money and time in every mmorpg, and you always have the risk that the game gets closed, that does not equal gambling imho.
For me gambling is putting money into something with the possibility of gaining more money based on chance.
Now I also acknowledge that various governments widened their legislation to cover all the angles, and that the RMAH may fall into grey areas.
 

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by Cavod
What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
 
Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
 
So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
 
I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.

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You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.

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Originally posted by SaintViktor

Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

 

Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

If this is true, then MMO in general should be banned.

You are spending money for the continuation of a service, creating a virtual character (goods) that is supposed to be owned by the players. Yet, the company can easily announced shutting down the servers in a month of less, and you lose all your goods, forever.

It isn't a gambling, but more like a losing battle, you will always lose in the end, its just a matter if you even care at that point anymore.

And frankly speaking, I don't think RMAH is classified as gambling, if that is so, any form of online real money trading will be classified as that, which isn't the case.

Originally posted by CyberWiz

I do not agree that the virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling. That would mean that regular microtransactions, bought directly from a game company, would also be gambling.

You invest real money and time in every mmorpg, and you always have the risk that the game gets closed, that does not equal gambling imho.

For me gambling is putting money into something with the possibility of gaining more money based on chance.

Now I also acknowledge that various governments widened their legislation to cover all the angles, and that the RMAH may fall into grey areas.

Paying a static sum for something that you know what it is = not gambling.

If they were to sell random stuff or randomize the price then it would be gambling.

RMAH is a kinda odd thing, you buy stuff that you don't own and the company can nerf it any timne without any problems. The law dies not mentioning how it works and don't consider stealing stuff like that to be equal to stealing real stuff and so on. But it is not gambling (unless you leave your kid alone with Smurf village and your credit card, that would be gambling without any chance of winning).

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by Cavod
What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
 
Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
 
So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
 
I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.

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You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.

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No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.

Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.

 

After thinking more about this I can see the argument how D3 with the RMAH may be considered gambling if you really stretch it. You buy the box ( you put money into it ), you play the chance game ( killing monsters and hoping something will drop ) and then you may or may not cash in thru the AH.

However, if you look at it from a moral point of view, I do not consider it gambling.

You do not put money into it directly for getting the items, you "work" for it by slaying monsters. Compare it to the gold rush in the States, you went out looking for gold and you had a chance to find some. After that you could go auction your gold and with some luck you sell it for a good price.

Paying for the box is paying for the gameplay, not the chance of getting items and putting them on the AH, I feel that is stretching it.

So to me, from a moral point of view, it does not feel like gambling in D3 / RMAH.

The only thing I have a moral problem with is the fixed listing price, because there you put in money which you loose if you do not sell, and thus you are in effect gambling.

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Originally posted by Loke666

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Originally posted by CyberWiz
I do not agree that the virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling. That would mean that regular microtransactions, bought directly from a game company, would also be gambling.
You invest real money and time in every mmorpg, and you always have the risk that the game gets closed, that does not equal gambling imho.
For me gambling is putting money into something with the possibility of gaining more money based on chance.
Now I also acknowledge that various governments widened their legislation to cover all the angles, and that the RMAH may fall into grey areas.

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Paying a static sum for something that you know what it is = not gambling.
If they were to sell random stuff or randomize the price then it would be gambling.
RMAH is a kinda odd thing, you buy stuff that you don't own and the company can nerf it any timne without any problems. The law dies not mentioning how it works and don't consider stealing stuff like that to be equal to stealing real stuff and so on. But it is not gambling (unless you leave your kid alone with Smurf village and your credit card, that would be gambling without any chance of winning).
Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

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Originally posted by Loke666

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, but with all the illegal RMT going on, why should Blizzard not get a piece of the pie and nerf some illegal sellers while they are at it.

I hope that by having legal RMT, Blizzard will have the funds ( funds from D3 itself, so that it is profitable ) and the willingness to put in the effort to elliminate the botters and scammers as much as possible. They will have a vested interest in keeping the game healthy, unlike DiabloII where they have nothing to gain.

The thing is that even without the RMAH you do not have the choice to play RMT free because of all the illegal RMT.

The only other way to combat illegal RMT ( besides legal RMT ) is with a subscription fee, where Blizzard would have another way of funding updates, adn the fight against botters, scammers and RMT.

But if you look at WoW, where they really have put some effort in combatting this, they also failed.

So the pragmatic solution is :

- Make RMT legal

- Do it yourself ( Blizzard ) and make profit from it

- Use this profit to combat the rest of the illegal RMT market, together with the scammers and botters.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Loke666

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Originally posted by CyberWiz
 

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If Blizzard implemented a Real Money Player Store(tm) system, instead of an auction, South Korea would still be considering a ban on the game. The issue is not the auction house. The issue is that the game itself is a form of gambling. When you kill a monster (pull a lever) you get a random drop (chance at earning money). You can't earn real world money by gambling in South Korea.

** edit **
@CyberWiz - gambling is an amoral activity; it is neither good nor evil. South Korea is concerned only with the effect on society, and they do not believe it has any positives. So it's illegal.

With D3, it just depends on how they view the game. Is is like mining for gold or gambling with a computer? So far, they have taken the view that video games and mmorpg in particular are like gambling with a computer. It's fine if you never take your virtual earnings and make real world money out of it, but as soon as you make real world money out of it, it's gambling.

 

Okay so South Korea considers any random drops in video games virtual gambling and you are not allowed to cash in in RL cash.

I think they are besides the point tho with their gambling law, because wether it is virtual or real, random or not random, it stays just as addictive. And it is the addiction that is the real problem in South Korea.

Oh well, we will see how this goes.

Originally posted by lizardbones

If Blizzard implemented a Real Money Player Store(tm) system, instead of an auction, South Korea would still be considering a ban on the game. The issue is not the auction house. The issue is that the game itself is a form of gambling. When you kill a monster (pull a lever) you get a random drop (chance at earning money). You can't earn real world money by gambling in South Korea.

Last time I checked, I did not have to insert coins in a monsters ears before pulling the lever :p

If you are not risking your own money, it's not gambling. With killing monsters you risk nothing.

This is Blizzards stance on the matter, if Korea shares this opinion remains to be seen.

Originally posted by lthompson94

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

So, by your logic, when you pay for something to make a profit... it's gambling?!  LOL!!  Welcome to the world of business.

If I own a used car lot, and buy a car for $500 - for a chance to resell it for a thousand... I'm gambling?

RMAH and gambling are NOT AT ALL the same thing.

It's only a CHANCE to make a profit.  You're not guaranteed to sell that item and they keep your AH fee regardless. 

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by lthompson94

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

So, by your logic, when you pay for something to make a profit... it's gambling?!  LOL!!  Welcome to the world of business.

If I own a used car lot, and buy a car for $500 - for a chance to resell it for a thousand... I'm gambling?

RMAH and gambling are NOT AT ALL the same thing.

 

It's only a CHANCE to make a profit.  You're not guaranteed to sell that item and they keep your AH fee regardless. 

Which is exactly the way Ebay works......

Originally posted by Kwintpod

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by lthompson94

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

So, by your logic, when you pay for something to make a profit... it's gambling?!  LOL!!  Welcome to the world of business.

If I own a used car lot, and buy a car for $500 - for a chance to resell it for a thousand... I'm gambling?

RMAH and gambling are NOT AT ALL the same thing.

 

It's only a CHANCE to make a profit.  You're not guaranteed to sell that item and they keep your AH fee regardless. 

Which is exactly the way Ebay works......

LMAO, you know what?   I honestly don't know why I'm even arguing it.  I think what I think and others think what they think and no one is going to change anyone else's mind.  Besides, I'm not even going to play this game, I'm opting for Torchlight2 instead, so why am I here arguing about this?  Ridiculous of me to be here.  I just thought the conversation looked interesting. Boy is it. lol

I still have the same view of it all.....random roll generator determines if you get a good auction item, then you buy a CHANCE to sell it.  As far as I'm concerned, my opinion is STILL that it's gambling of a sort.

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

 

Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

I commend them and was just the other day i was saying that perhaps our fuiture lies with Asian developers.We are talking not only common sense but morals.Some of these big develoeprs like Blizzard are so entrneched with their fanbase,they feel they can do whatever they want,it is time the players let them know we are not their slaves or sheep to be herd around.

This would be a HUGE step for gaming if a giant like Blizzard was turned down face first  and told we don't like your ideas.We need SOE to be slapped around a bit as well,we are headed down a VERY bad path that leads to total nonsense when comes to gaming, a casual past time.

So our future lies with Asian devs who basically invented microtransactions and RMT? Great.

Between microtransactions and player run RMT I will choose the latter every time.

 

Yes KEYWORD>>>FUTURE.

This doesn't mean the past,as of right now the majority of N.Amerk devs are going the RMT way whilst,Asian devs are actually starting to go the opposite route.

The FUTURE weather Asian devs change their RMT ways or not ,i guaranteee the n.Amerk ways are headed in the exact same direction or worse.I am not saying the Asian developer "IS" our hope to the future ,i am saying it "IS" possible,especially since the N.Amerk devs are showing me the exact opposite.

We are seeing Asian devs at least trying to advance gaming ,whilst many localized devs are streamlining mmorpg's down to almost nothing but a solo/linear/leveling questing curve nothing more.Can gaming really get anymore boring than hanging out on your max level player raiding loot that has no meaning to an already finished max level player?

What have we seen over the last 5 years from N.Amerk devs?Battlegrounds?lol if that is all and the best they can come up with,then god help this genre,it is going no where and very slowly at that.

I look at games like TERA and Archeage,this is the future as both are trying to add a little more to gaming and making pvp a little more encouraging to those thaty normally don't like  it [me for example] than these other games are.

Well, it will be interesting to see what age rating will D3 get. As parent myself I dont plan to allow my kids to play any game with integrated real money trasactions like D3 till they are 18teen.

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

How so?

When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

All MMORPGs are based on the gambling metallity. The player high of a payoff is a major hook in their pyschology.

Even in sub games you gamble, the only difference is that the currency in use is time.

The RMAH concept dosent make this any better or worse.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

You are NOT paying for a random number generator

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