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General Discussion  » [Poll] Human Naytheists: Should it be an option?

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85 posts found
  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/10/11 5:41:28 PM#61
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

I think I've been misunderstood by some and demonised (thanks, Exilor) by others, here.

It's easy to demonise someone who shares an opposing opinion rather than dealing with the opinion, isn't it? Sigh. Okay, anyway... some of you understood what I was getting at.

Without demonising me, can we at least acknowledge the following?

  • In the intro, the human you play wails on aout the missing gods and how they still believe in them.
  • In the biography, you must choose to havee been blessed by a particular god.
Both of these things strongly imply that humans are forced to have faith in the gods in their personal storyline. What I was saying is that it's my position that if a person wants to have a personal storyline as a human that precludes the gods, then they should have that option. Or if it must include the gods, then it should include the option to spurn them. My worry is that ArenaNet aren't considering this choice for human characters.
 
All I was positing is that there should be the option for people to choose. If you want to be faithful or if you want to e a "Naytheist."
 
What is a Naytheist? Well, Diovidius got this. It's someone who understands that powerful beings exist, but that powerful beings exist everywhere, and that anyone stronger than oneself is a powerful being. But that doesn't mean that we should bow down to them, or worship them, or accept their word as law. It doesn't mean that we should accept them as superior beings, either, but rather simply more powerful. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to become more powerful by our own merits in order to challenge them.
 
I believe that these should be options available to human characters.
 
With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

Without demonising me by complaining that I demonise you, can you acknowledge that in the biography you're asked about other people's views on the subject and not your own? And that it's perrfectly possible that in the video the player characters refers to the human race as a whole (since that's who the character is talking about) and not themselves?

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

9/10/11 6:00:57 PM#62
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

 

2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

"Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

3.

You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

 

On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/10/11 6:14:52 PM#63
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

 

2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

"Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

3.

You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

 

On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

  Varthander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 467

Forum ranks are useless.

9/10/11 6:21:00 PM#64

Since guild wars 2 gods are part of the lore i must say No. Another example would be... would you create a space marine with no faith in the emperor, or a chaos one with no faith in the dark gods? im just glad there is no option to that, and of coruse i respect your Poll, im just telling my opinion.

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

9/10/11 6:33:01 PM#65
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

 

2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

"Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

3.

You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

 

On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

2. True.

3. Also true.

  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/10/11 6:38:20 PM#66
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I wrote: You do know that pretty much everything we know about the gods either comes from things said or written by humans or what was said by the gods (or their avatars) themselves right? Lore articles, dialogue, timelines it's all from a human point of view, GW1 in it's entirety was a human thing. As Ghosts of Ascalon shows in it's tale of the Foefire it matters a great deal who tells the story.

2. And how is believing in their existance and their power the same as believing that they are gods?

3. Then explain ritualist magic or mursaat magic (and Elder Dragon magic), both existed before the gift of magic .

Read the history section http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_tyria

1. The human point of view is that the gods created tyria and humans themselves. Out of the game, in the official wiki, the gods are revealed to not have created tyria, they simply brought humanity there from some other world. The wiki is not the human point of view. It's not some human story, the wiki tells of humanity's version and the actual reality of the game. And since it's the official wiki, it's canon

In the same wiki, the article concerning the word itself (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_(world)) it's not said that the gods created it, because they actually didn't. The wiki is not humanity's mouthpiece, it's objective, canon information about the game world. Still, they are referred to as gods.They're a category of being called gods. They might not be bible gods, they're Guild Wars gods.

 

2. The Charr saw unfair that humans had gods, who they blamed for their defeat at human hands. So they sought gods of their own so that they might also had that advantage. The shaman caste found a titan in a volcano and brought it to be worshipped as a god by the other charr. In turn, the titans provided them with the power to cause the Searing.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titan

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shaman_caste

I do not know if the shamans themselves thought the titans to be gods, but the rest of the charr (except bathea havocbringer who refused to worship them and was executed) believed so.

Basically: Oh the humans have gods and that's why they defeated us. Let us find gods of our own. Great, now we have gods, let's take back our land.

They do believe the tyrian gods to be really gods. That doesn't mean they worship them or anything, in fact they want to destroy them (and become gods themselves? I didn't think about that but they might like the idea...). They refused to bow to anyone, god or otherwise.

3. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

"Despite the fact that magic was not given to the races of Tyria on a whole until just before the Exodus, there are cases where magic was used before such time. Those cases are based on two cases - the chosen of the gods and the Ritualist profession. Before magic was given to the races, the Canthan Ritualists were able to call upon their ancestors for use in magic. With the introduction of magic, the Ritualist profession became even stronger - in both the old ways, and new."

There is no record of the Mursaat using magic before the gods gifted the races of tyria with it.

The Elder Dragons predate the gods and have their own powers, true. The safest thing to assume is that they were born from the mists, like everything in the world of Guild Wars including the gods, the stars, and any power was. They're born from the same place the gods (or the original wielder of their powers) were.  

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_mists

1. In no way is the official wiki a canon source for lore, it is not created by Anet, only supported which means everything on the wiki either comes from the game or from other lore sources which are almost all based on the human point of view.

2. So because the charr saw the titans as gods they had to view the human gods as gods?

3.

You're still ignoring ritualist magic and blaming the mist on the power of the elder dragons is probably true, but merely proves that the gods are hardly unique since EVERYTHING comes from the mists eventually.

 

On mursaat magic, let's look at logic shall we:

The seer had developed a way to protect themselves against spectral agony.

The mursaat vs seer war was before the gift of magic.

Ergo spectral agony predates the gift of magic.

1. Then find me a better lore source, it's not I who is challenging what is closest to official.

2. The gods don't have to be unique or be the only power on the universe to be what they are.

3. I did address ritualist magic, and mursaat magic is probably the same. That is, if it's magic at all. It is not described as such and ingame it is not a spell and goes past Spellbreaker. Even if it is magic, it doesn't matter, because precedent of some forms of magic in the world doesn't equal most races could do magic and thus the gods didn't give it to the races of tyria.

The gods gave magic to the world then had to limit it. There is no doubt about that. Even if a few could perform limited feats of magic beforehand.

1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

2. True.

3. Also true.

It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

9/10/11 6:50:53 PM#67
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

2. True.

3. Also true.

It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

Making a strawman out of an example I used to prove a point does not help win arguments you know ;) But I agree to some extent. Sure, we have to use the lore that is available to us however that does not mean that we have to accept it without asking critical questions.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

9/10/11 6:57:21 PM#68
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
 
With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

Pretty much the same way that people can demonize dedicated healers, people who raid and the P2P model.  ;)

  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/10/11 7:01:08 PM#69
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Exilor
Originally posted by Diovidius

1. I'm just pointing out the problems with existing sources. If you met an alien race as the first human being and they talked to you about gods would you believe them? They would be the only source you would have about those gods so you have no evidence against their statements right? What if you later actually meet one of those gods, it says it's a god and it performs an apparently supernatural feat, would you consider it to be a god then? If you wouldn't, then you are being a hypocrite, if you would you are naive.

2. True.

3. Also true.

It's all the sources we have, if you prefer to theorise that things are not what they appear and somewhere in the game there will be a plot twist involving the reveal that the gods are aliens, fine by me. It would be a fine prelude to Guild Wars 3 2500 in the future instead of 250. I mean it, it would be cool as hell to have a "Guild Wars 40k".

Making a strawman out of an example I used to prove a point does not help win arguments you know ;) But I agree to some extent. Sure, we have to use the lore that is available to us however that does not mean that we have to accept it without asking critical questions.

The point I defend does not depend on my success or failure in conveying it to be more or less true.

You can ask all the critical questions you want but nothing in the lore leads to the conclusion that the gods are something else other than gods.

  Exilor

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Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/10/11 7:02:56 PM#70
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
 
With it laid out so plainly I don't see how anyone could demonise me for thinking this, but hey, I'm sure some will try.

Pretty much the same way that people can demonize dedicated healers, people who raid and the P2P model.  ;)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WoundedGazelleGambit

  AKASlaphappy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/06
Posts: 812

9/11/11 12:28:10 AM#71
Originally posted by Grigor_Bron
 

My main concern is how closely tied the gods are to the human cultural identity. All of the human racial abilities are linked to the gods. Also, it seems that by this logic, charr should be allowed to worship the human gods, the asura should be allowed to venerate nature spirits, and the norn should be able to tap into the eternal alchemy. These and all possible related combinations should be made available by the same argument. So, application of your philosophy would be great in any other game, but I just can't see it working in this one.

This right here sums it all up! If they are going to add that option in for humans they better add in that same option to go against the stated beliefs for all races. Now personally I would rather not have ANet keep the game in development to add this to the game when people can just role-play this!
  svann

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 1634

9/12/11 12:46:06 AM#72

In eq1 thats exactly what an atheist was.  Obviously the "gods" exist as beings, but to an atheist they are not really gods at all but merely extremely powerful beings.

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

9/12/11 2:36:07 AM#73
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy
Originally posted by Grigor_Bron
 

My main concern is how closely tied the gods are to the human cultural identity. All of the human racial abilities are linked to the gods. Also, it seems that by this logic, charr should be allowed to worship the human gods, the asura should be allowed to venerate nature spirits, and the norn should be able to tap into the eternal alchemy. These and all possible related combinations should be made available by the same argument. So, application of your philosophy would be great in any other game, but I just can't see it working in this one.

This right here sums it all up! If they are going to add that option in for humans they better add in that same option to go against the stated beliefs for all races. Now personally I would rather not have ANet keep the game in development to add this to the game when people can just role-play this!

This was pretty much my point but you guys said it better than I did! lol

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8740

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

9/12/11 4:45:15 AM#74

I think i would not want to play anything else...

 

In all my roleplay experiences i refused to play clerical and beleiving characers.  As i was mostly a healer/support kind of class, that left me with Druidical and Shamanastic healers to play...

In my roleplay experience (espescially D&D) i allways refused to honor and or admit the excistance of godly beings..  (Espescially fun roleplaying when there is a cleric that refuses to heal those that do not Honor his god)

 

 

I totally agree that there should be roleplay/story options for those that are Naytheists...

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  twstdstrange

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/10
Posts: 485

9/12/11 9:48:19 AM#75

This is why I was pushed away from my usual Human MMO choice, and I was drawn more towards the Asura.

I had wanted to ask ANet about the option to choose to worship no god(s) in particular, but had never gotten around to it.

  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/12/11 9:50:12 AM#76
Originally posted by Exilor

  User Deleted
9/12/11 2:03:04 PM#77

I believe that you are missing something here. The humans has learned to accept the fact that they are governed by the gods whether they choose to believe, worship, praise the gods or not. If you choose not to worship any gods, your life will be pulled into many directions as the gods are conflicting what your destiny should be. Humans choose to worship certain gods to protect their chosen path in life. If for example a warrior doesn't worship Balthazar, Melandru will try to pull that human to be a Ranger...that's why we see fail Warriors with a bow in GW1. A warrior with a bow in GW2 will be viable because after 200+ years, humans have accepted the gods as a whole, to be part of every aspect of their lives.

 

Humans does not desire war at all times. When they are younger, they might worship Balthazar or Lyssa. But as they get old, they want more preservation thus they either worship Melandru or Dwayna. The gods are like phases of the moon in a human life, certain stage of their life will favor one gods over the other. And whether they believe in the gods or not, this is how the humans are in Tyria.

 

Is it to say that the Charr or the Sylvari or Asura do not acknowledge the gods as gods? Of course not. They also believe in the Divine if they choose to be an Elementalist, since Magic came from the gods after all.

 

Arenanet have said in one of the interviews, that the players are heroes in GW2, thus you cannot be one of the bad guys or anti-government or naythesis....those type of humans maybe NPCs (not sure). But as far as the GW2 story line goes, the players are heroes, and heroes believes in the gods.

 

That's my take in this matter.

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

9/12/11 2:24:36 PM#78
Originally posted by jvxmtg
Is it to say that the Charr or the Sylvari or Asura do not acknowledge the gods as gods? Of course not. They also believe in the Divine if they choose to be an Elementalist, since Magic came from the gods after all.

First of all, as far as we know most the magic that is useable by mortals only originally came from the gods, after the gods set it free in the world the gods no longer played a role in it's use. You do not need to pray to the gods, ally with the gods or even believe in their existance to use magic. This can be seen by the fact that charr, white mantle and even non-sentient beings can use magic in gw1.

Second of all, there are other sources for magic. The asura gate network used to draw power from Primordus before he woke up, ritualists partially draw power directly from the mists and where mursaat magic (if it is magic) comes from, no one knows.

Third of all, sylvari have explicitly be said to doubt the existance of the gods because they lack evidence of their existance because they weren't around when the gods meddled in mortal affairs.

Last of all, there is a difference between believing in the existance of the gods and believing most magic comes from them on the one hand and believing in their divinity on the other.

Originally posted by jvxmtg

I believe that you are missing something here. The humans has learned to accept the fact that they are governed by the gods whether they choose to believe, worship, praise the gods or not. If you choose not to worship any gods, your life will be pulled into many directions as the gods are conflicting what your destiny should be. Humans choose to worship certain gods to protect their chosen path in life. If for example a warrior doesn't worship Balthazar, Melandru will try to pull that human to be a Ranger...that's why we see fail Warriors with a bow in GW1. A warrior with a bow in GW2 will be viable because after 200+ years, humans have accepted the gods as a whole, to be part of every aspect of their lives.

Humans were never really governed by the gods, only supported. Besides, the gods have gone silent since Nightfall.

Originally posted by jvxmtg

Arenanet have said in one of the interviews, that the players are heroes in GW2, thus you cannot be one of the bad guys or anti-government or naythesis....those type of humans maybe NPCs (not sure). But as far as the GW2 story line goes, the players are heroes, and heroes believes in the gods.

This just screams ignorance about lore, unless you only mean human heroes and even then there's a discussion about that.

  Exilor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/10
Posts: 394

Turn it up, turn it up, turn it up, up, adieu...

9/12/11 3:49:38 PM#79

"Each of the races of Tyria have different attitudes to the gods. The humans believe that the gods created Tyria, though the charr legends only specify Melandru in this. Despite their legend, the charr view the gods as powerful beings to fight, not worship. The norn recognize the existence of the gods, but consider them an extension of their belief system of nature spirits; they refer to the Six as the "Spirits of Action" and do not call them by their name, but by what they govern - for instance, Balthazar is War and Kormir is Knowledge.[2] The asura consider the gods to be relatively large parts (but parts nonetheless) of their Eternal Alchemy, and the sylvari, having appeared only in 1302 AE and therefore having never actually witnessed the work of the gods, remain unconvinced they exist at all."

 

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gods

 

Humans are wrong though, we know that the gods didn't create Tyria.

  Homitu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

9/12/11 5:34:12 PM#80

Although I'm relatively uneducated in the lore and deities of GW2, based on what I've learned in this thread and from some of the linked wikis, it doesn't seem unreasonable to roleplay a character of one race who lives among the peoples of another race, studies their culture, beliefs, and ideologies, and eventually adopts some of those for himself.  In fact, I'd consider it unrealistic for every member of a race to unanimously believe the same exact thing in a world that does feature conflicting ideologies.  This is precisely the realm of creative roleplay in MMOs.  I think any author will tell you that past lore could be manipulated with enough creativity to justify just about any new plot twist.  

 

So sure, objectively the gods of GW2 do exist in the GW universe.  Yes, each culture seems to have some spurious beliefs about the gods (Ie. humans believing their 6 gods are responsible for the creation of Tyria.)  I think that leaves plenty room for any member of any race to deviate in their culture's predominate beliefs.  For example, the OP's naytheistic human character could hypothesize his "god given" powers are not derived from the gods at all, but are rather evolved human traits.  Whether or not this is the objective truth in the GW2 universe is irrelevant, as surely as the objective truth of our own universe doesn't prevent various competing ideas from emerging across all cultures.  The gods, which do exist in GW2, may very well have given this individual his powers, but he doesn't necessarily have to believe it so.  And those gods may have their own motives for not revoking those powers upon learning of our character's lack of faith.  

 

You can always find some way to make your desired RP consistent with the lore, even if my own examples weren't quite exhaustively comprehensive.   So go ahead, RP it up!

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