I too fell the lack of realism disturbing in MMORPG'´s. Í´'m seriously upset that the female hobbit warden I play in LotRO is nowhere near what I see in the mirror in the morning. No wait, it does...scary...

Originally posted by Loke666

 

Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).

 

Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.

 

And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16^th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.

 

Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

 Devs are also under the impression that you can run and sprint long distances, swim, sneak, and jump up and down.. over and over again, while running, or waiting at an instance or hanging out at a bank in town... Silly devs.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Ganksinatra

Anyone who says chainmail is louder then leather has never worn leather pants. I could hear a rogue wearing leather pants coming from a block away, no matter how sneaky he was.

Are you suggesting that rogues should go about pantless?

 Well assless at least. Obviously, if he hears leather pants all the time then hes hanging out in certain bars whilst complaining about the noise of people walking around while drowning his sorrows over no homophile relationships in SW TOR.

Originally posted by Loke666

My point is anyways that adding a little realism in things like how a sword or a armor looks makes the game feel a lot more alive.

The difference between series like Xena and Legend of the seekers against a serie like Game of throne is that the stuff they wear and fight with in game of thrones actuqally looks real.

The cities in game of thrones also looks and feel real because they made actual background work for it (well, except Kings landing that looks real because it is real, it is Valetta in Malta, great place to visit BTW).

I don't see how making things like this would make the game less fun but it would help making the game feels more alive.

how things worked in our history doesn't have to be the same how things could work in fantasy world. too many people assume that fantasy=medieval. but as i said, fantasy universes can have thousands or even tens of thousands of years of their own history, where technology does not progress significantly. so, what they do have is probably as sophisticated as it possibly can be, probably because higher powers are tweaking stuff as they see fit.

realism can and should be applied to historical setting. but it can't be applied to fantasy setting without making such setting, well, realistic. which means, no dragons, no giants, no undead, no floating islands, no perpetuum mobile, no chain mail that is lighter than plate, etc. just "because that's how things are".

fantasy worlds MUST have things that make you go "wtf, that can't work". take for example, magic. magic must be chaotic, uncomprehensible force useable only by few, gifted or cursed. the moment magic can be used by anyone that is willing to learn, it stops being magic and it becomes science, no matter how intricate it feels.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Short-Straw

I was under the impression that non-european mail of the 1300 to 1700's was significantly lighter than plate. Perhaps that's where the developers get their concept. Perhaps I'm an raving idiot and totally wrong too.

It wasn't. Both Asian mail from China and Japan and the middle east plate still weights more.

That doesn't mean you a raving idiot or anything, it is a common mistake but whenyou make a game you should at least learn such basic as this.

Talk to anyone in ARMA or SCA, they know this.

Yes, see but MITHRIL armor (in game lore), both chain and plate, is supposed to be very very light.  See LotRO for that one.  The dwarven fella talks about it in the movies too, actually.

So I guess I've always assumed that all chainmail is mithril and that plate is made of various things, steel, mithril, iron, etc.  The higher quality, the lighter....so I've always thought.

You, Sir,  are just taking our make believe worlds too seriously with this. (I'm just playin' with ya.)  Just imagine it all as some lightweight but strong alloy or something. It's all imagination any way.

Originally posted by just1opinion

Yes, see but MITHRIL armor (in game lore), both chain and plate, is supposed to be very very light.  See LotRO for that one.  The dwarven fella talks about it in the movies too, actually.

Mithril, Orihalicum and so on can have different physical rules, no problems. But most MMO armors are still made of steel as we know from crafting them and they have the exact same rules.

Tolkien doesn't mess up his things, it is when the books got made into a game that it starts to be confusing.

---

Originally posted by Loke666
 

Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).

 

Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.

 

And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16^th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.

 

Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

---

And one more thing that people tend to forget about medieval armor is that it was actually worn LAYERED and, unless you were a professional army (not that common anyway) or a noble who could provide for a suit of plate, you generally wore a mish-mash of all kinds of armor at the same time.

Originally posted by Loke666

 

Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc  Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).

 

Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.

 

And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16^th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.

 

Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.

Oh wow another kid who watches a BAD TV show with flawed science testing takes it as gospel.

Trueth is, I have a set of Chainmail, a ACTUAL Chainmail Hauburk.   It weighs 35lbs by itself.    I have been in Italian platemail and I could move QUITE well in it.   But it was considerably heavier, it was around 55-65lbs total, but it was spread out over my whole body instead of just on my shoulders and hips like a set of chainmail. 

Chainmail I can actually move VERY well, if not better than the plate, but plate that is fitted to you will not impede your movement.   Much like a chainmail hauburk that is fitted for you will not impede you either.   My shirt I can do everything that I can do out of armour, even with the gambeson on under it.  

Deadliest Warrior did such a BAD test on so many shows its barely even funny.   Just to point out a few.... Pirate vs Knight, Ninja vs Spartan,  and Joan of Arc vs William the Bastard (Conquerer).    The people doing the tests were not trained AT all in how to fight with a weapon, they were just swinging from the arm... which is at best laughable, they also were doing things under different assumptions.   The William tester was doing things for speed not for accuracy, mean while the female tester for Joan was doing everything for accuracy and because it made her look pretty.  

Just pointing out somethings.  

If your going to use a TV program as a basis for your arguement at least use one thats not meant for pure entertainment. 

The answer is obvious.  Including armor that offers less protection and less agility would be piss poor game design.  Nobody would use it.

When I think of plate armor I don't think about it realisticly.  I picture it being over 200lbs, one inch thick, and impervious to bullets somewhat resembling a knight's set of armor.  Obviously it would be a pain in the ass to move in it nor would it have as many joints allowing swift movement but you'd literally be a tank. 

Chain mail I picture as being less densely chained and wheighing less.  But I notice how in MMOs chain mail doesn't really have that many chains on it to begin with.  Maybe some chain dangaling under the shoulders or something but not a full piece.

Originally posted by Ravik

When I think of plate armor I don't think about it realisticly.  I picture it being over 200lbs, one inch thick, and impervious to bullets somewhat resembling a knight's set of armor.  Obviously it would be a pain in the ass to move in it nor would it have as many joints allowing swift movement but you'd literally be a tank. 

Chain mail I picture as being less densely chained and wheighing less.  But I notice how in MMOs chain mail doesn't really have that many chains on it to begin with.  Maybe some chain dangaling under the shoulders or something but not a full piece.

You should look at the chainmail in EQ2 with your graphics set on high. Loads of chain. Actually looks like what chainmail should look like rather than one dangling chain, as you put it.

Originally posted by Ravik

When I think of plate armor I don't think about it realisticly.  I picture it being over 200lbs, one inch thick, and impervious to bullets somewhat resembling a knight's set of armor.  Obviously it would be a pain in the ass to move in it nor would it have as many joints allowing swift movement but you'd literally be a tank. 

Chain mail I picture as being less densely chained and wheighing less.  But I notice how in MMOs chain mail doesn't really have that many chains on it to begin with.  Maybe some chain dangaling under the shoulders or something but not a full piece.

QFT!  When I think plate armor in MMOs (oor fantasy games in general(, I expect it to be a couple of inches thick so not everyone can wear it o.o   and like..for chain mail I just think its a realy thin chain of metals

Edit : Off topic : Haiiiii justt1~~

I've attempted to google this topic, and there are many different viewpoints.

Most sources claim chain armor weights 40-75lbs, and plate armor weighs 150lbs. However, I've also read that the plate armor was distributed more evenly, where as the chain armor placed all the weight on the shoulders. I also read there is plate armor, plate mail and chain mail. Plate mail and chain mail being the same weight. So, pretty much who the hell knows???

I would have thought there would have been some clear cut information instead of so many different reports. 

I saw more sites claim chain was lighter and more flexible, so I will have to go with that.

You're just overthinking fiction. I mean, there are mmo's where your a damned wizard fighting on a pirate ship in space, so there's no need to get frustrated with this. So unless the game was historical like someone else said, there's no need to be bothered by it.

I figure the OP knows his stuff.  Most of what he says makes good sense.  I personally have no idea having never tried any of this stuff on myself. 

As far as it being a lesser armor in not only mmorpgs but games in general?  It LOOKS like weaker armor.  It looks lighter.   Plate may be lighter but it doesnt look that way.  The games seem to want to categorize armor between light, medium, and heavy.  Chain is usually represented as the lighter thing next to plate.  One because it just looks lighter but also because plate is just amazing looking armor.  So it gets to be the top dog.  Because of looks.  Chain is not so.  It looks like medium armor and it looks like it could be lighter so they put it in that way. 

Some older and even more modern movies may be to blame as well.  Everyone seems to move so lightly in movies when they're wearing chain.  Why?  Because generally, especially in older films, thats not chain at all.  Its just cloth made to look like chain and colored just right.  So of course they move around no problem.  But when you see plate armored guys fight, they tend to move slower, and their actions are more deliberate.  As though they're wearing some heavy stuff.  Meanwhile the chainmail guys are bouncing all over the place. 

So OP, if you're right, and I have a feeling you probably are, dont just blame mmos.  Blame Hollywood.  Blame those old movies.  And even the new ones.  Most fiction never goes into chain mail being heavy or heavier than plate, and I dont imagine a lot of authors, developers, etc have ever tried on any of the stuff so they wouldnt know.  Its just sort of a misconception.  Same sort of misconceptions put out that silencers on guns really hush the shot (they dont.  Really they dont), and that you have to cock your gun before every fight, or just before you fire the gun ( You do, but I imagine people typically cock their guns BEFORE they expect to use it, not just before they expect to fire).   Or even that bullet proof vests will stop a high caliber rifle round.  Nope. 

Just more misconceptions.  Im hardly surprised.  But thanks for the education.  I would have assumed chain would be lighter than plate myself having never really considered it any other way.  So thanks. 

According to AD&D 2nd Edition "Arms and Equipment Guide"  Role Playing Games , Dungeons Dragons , Dungeon Master's Guides, chainmail is lighter than plate mail.

In the 'other real world' , Chain provided high agility protection while plate was often layered over chain in specific areas, not only as a decorative piece, but to provide better prtection in non-lethal areas of the body, such as lower legs and forearms (where bone breakage is highly lieky to occur)-it was often made of brass and steele.

Full suits of plate or chain was expensive (costing as much as twelve cows or a small house), so often, soldiers, cheiftans, and mercenaries often wore them...some, only a couple to few pieces at a time (Coif, Hauberk and  haubergeon).

As a gamer, I would believe that non-magical chain is lighter than non-magical plate.

For the record:

Mithril is a fictional metal, originally used in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth fantasy writings. It is described as silvery and stronger than steel but much lighter in weight. The malleability, lack of tarnishing and use of the metal in jewellery suggest some similarity to the non-fictional metal platinum, while its strength and lightness suggest titanium.

What I enjoy most about AD&D is that they have a strict ruleset that is often never compromised. I wonder how many developers bother to keep such a guide.

It wasn't really taken from the later 14th-17th century styles... I'd say most dev's probably compare them to the ancient greek and roman era.. Didn't they use Heavy Bronze inlaid plate mail back then? I'm no expert, but I'd wager they were pretty much heavier than the heaviest chainmail...

But, nonetheless, you do make a good point.. If the armor design is taken from the 13th-16th centuries, than yes you are correct.. The soldiers would wear chain underneath their plate and the plate was much lighter than chain. That's also because somewhere within those 250 years, they reconstructed the plate to allow more flexibility, therefore making it weaker against piercing attacks.. However, the heavy chain underneath combined with the lighter plate on the outside made it harder for arrows to pierce both sets of armor, as well as swords slashing through both sets of armor...

Anyway, I believe and hope Devs are basing the heavy plate from the ancient Greek and Roman era where bronze was the main material used... Or I think so since it makes sense to me, lol.

Well.... Old SCA member as well (+20 years) tried most armors and most weapon styles known to man (yes, even hoity toity fencing), and the weight/flexibility discussion is pretty much valid... somewhat. A rogue in plate is just not.... No, its not. a rogue in leather armor with chain parts, (very often  used) is a bit more silent and still give an adequate protection against lighter weaponry. But I think... think.. this scale come from the old Pen and Paper roleplaying systems, where weight very seldom was an issue and the scale was built upon level of protection instead, creating the scale we see today. Cloth-leather-chain-scale--halfplate-fullplate. And that is where it is stuck. Weight is just a secondary trait that we know is very important but gamewise mostly ignored. So why cant a healer wear full plate? Why can they in AD&D? Why is developers ignoring reality? Balance balance balance...

I am one of those crazy kids that like skillbased games where any character can wear whatever he likes as long as he puts points into it. But I will always be against a rogue wearing plate armor, since I know what it sounds like inside my helmet when a plate armor come crashing through the woods. It is many things, but silent it is not.

Its a misunderstood hold over from 1st edition D&D.  Plate Mail was more encumbering in those rules.  However the "Plate Mail" in D&D was plate and chain, not renaisance era full plate.

When the unearthed arcana was released they also added in Field Plate and Full Plate armor which was both more protective and less encumbering.

However the damage was done and we still see it today.  Also its just too tempting for them to have tiers of armor rather than one type that is just plain better that everyone would use.

Originally posted by Castillle

Originally posted by Ravik

When I think of plate armor I don't think about it realisticly.  I picture it being over 200lbs, one inch thick, and impervious to bullets somewhat resembling a knight's set of armor.  Obviously it would be a pain in the ass to move in it nor would it have as many joints allowing swift movement but you'd literally be a tank. 

Chain mail I picture as being less densely chained and wheighing less.  But I notice how in MMOs chain mail doesn't really have that many chains on it to begin with.  Maybe some chain dangaling under the shoulders or something but not a full piece.

QFT!  When I think plate armor in MMOs (oor fantasy games in general(, I expect it to be a couple of inches thick so not everyone can wear it o.o   and like..for chain mail I just think its a realy thin chain of metals

Edit : Off topic : Haiiiii justt1~~

The bunny returns!  :)  Hai, Castillle!

On topic:

I think similarly to you guys.  I don't think of plate armor as QUITE so thick, but I do think of it as thicker than other armors, heavy, and not something that someone small could wear.  It's for the big burly types or super athletic females even, but not for just anyone.  I most often think of it as made with steel whereas I imagine chainmail being light and made with mithril. /shrug  Don't know where I got those ideas for sure, but that's how I see it.

I've held these views on plate and chain for a long time.  I don't remember where they came from initially.