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Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online

Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online 

General Discussion  » Planetside 2 and The Secret World are 3 factions

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175 posts found
  Spalliero

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/07
Posts: 150

9/21/11 10:43:41 PM#61
Originally posted by StMichael

To accurately represent the IP, you'd have to fight a galactic scale war for ten thousand years. Since any reasonable person would agree that's not possible, what's the next best thing? A single encounter, which coincidentially is both how relic has done 40k since the original Dawn of War and how Vigil plans to do DMO. And until the sargos conflict is over, it's better to let your enemies die fighting each other than try and take them all on at the same time.

 

It's also neither vigil nor THQ that are calling the shots on the two faction decision, it's games workshop directly. They believe Order vs Destruction best represents both WHFB and 40k, which is why they've been using it in all their large-scale encounters since 2nd edition.

I'm sorry Mike, but once again you are just tailoring things to the way you want them to be. Your opinion is fine, but the facts speak differently. Just like the last time you thought that GW was all about a certain point of view you had, remember you thought the game was 2 sided. So I called you on it and even contacted 3 seperate GW stores, 2 of your choosing?

 

Your point of view is just that a point of view. This is not based on facts. GW is in FACT not calling the shots on this like you are saying.

What happens goes something like this, THQ gets the rights to the IP. Relic makes it's games based on a design and scenario they thought up. GW gives a stamp of approval and the game moves forward. The same exact thing is happening here, THQ has gained license to create 40k in the mmo game styling. Vigil gets THQ to let them create mmo, Vigil comes up with a scenario and present it to GW. GW gives it a stamp of approval, THQ funds the project, Vigil makes the game GW consents to the scenario ie use of the IP in the game.

Sic Luceat Lux

  grawss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/11
Posts: 438

9/21/11 11:29:15 PM#62

I did some searching a while back, and found nothing that suggests Games Workshop had anything to do with the two faction system WAR had, aside from approving it. I've also followed almost all the articles, interviews and news for DMO, and again found nothing on the matter save for a couple comments.

I'm not saying it isn't true, but I'm going to need some proof before blindly believing it.

Sarcasm is not a crime!

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/22/11 1:29:54 AM#63

You want proof? How about Games Workshop making their own 2 sided divide called (you guessed it) order and destruction around summer 2003. Those names were not Mythic's creations, they've been around since Games Workshop created them for their 2 sided global campaigns.

 

And Spal, you're hopeless. Calling a games workshop store and asking if 40k is 2 sided takes the question completely out of context. Any manager, employee, or random passer-by will say "no" only because they're speaking as to 40k in general. This isn't 40k in general. This is the war for the Sargos sector, and if you asked those same people "Would the Imperium fight along side Eldar against an overwhelming common enemy?" they'd tell you yes, and probably point out more than a few occasions where it's happened before.

 

You're trying to simplify the idea to the point where it fits your own tastes, but that's not how it works. I know full well you're going to respond with some sort of tripe to the effect of "ZOMG GRIMDARK!!!", but I have no interest in it. They've made a decision blessed by the most notoriously over-protective IP owners in history, and no amount of nerd rage will make them scrap what they've invested millions (maybe even tens of millions) of dollars making. So take your 3 faction circle-jerk possie and go infest the planetside forum.

  grawss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/11
Posts: 438

9/22/11 1:54:37 AM#64



Originally posted by StMichael
You want proof? How about Games Workshop making their own 2 sided divide called (you guessed it) order and destruction around summer 2003. Those names were not Mythic's creations, they've been around since Games Workshop created them for their 2 sided global campaigns.

Here is what you said:

"It's also neither vigil nor THQ that are calling the shots on the two faction decision, it's games workshop directly."

You claimed that Games Workshop is calling the shots for the faction system in an MMO, not a tabletop game. Insert coin to try again.




Originally posted by StMichael
You're trying to simplify the idea to the point where it fits your own tastes, but that's not how it works. I know full well you're going to respond with some sort of tripe to the effect of "ZOMG GRIMDARK!!!", but I have no interest in it. They've made a decision blessed by the most notoriously over-protective IP owners in history, and no amount of nerd rage will make them scrap what they've invested millions (maybe even tens of millions) of dollars making. So take your 3 faction circle-jerk possie and go infest the planetside forum.


You're the one trying to simplify it, not him. In the grand scheme of things, two factions is great and makes perfect sense [and this is where you generally stop reading]. But once you throw in the social aspects of an MMO, quests, gear, cities, vehicles, healing, or anything else specific to a given race, you'll run into what the IP absolutely does not allow: Buddy-buddy relationships between sworn enemies.

So if a race can't take advantage of an alliance, what is the point of said alliance?

I'd love to hear your answer to that, but I know you're too busy to reply to all posts and must choose very carefully. ;)

Sarcasm is not a crime!

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1805

9/22/11 2:05:48 AM#65

Having more than 2 factions doesn't mean there are more than 2 sides in each battle.

And having GW establish Order vs. Destruction for a long time? Pffft. See how well that worked in WAR for them?

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/22/11 11:23:07 AM#66
Originally posted by grawss

You're the one trying to simplify it, not him. In the grand scheme of things, two factions is great and makes perfect sense [and this is where you generally stop reading]. But once you throw in the social aspects of an MMO, quests, gear, cities, vehicles, healing, or anything else specific to a given race, you'll run into what the IP absolutely does not allow: Buddy-buddy relationships between sworn enemies.

 

So if a race can't take advantage of an alliance, what is the point of said alliance?

I'd love to hear your answer to that, but I know you're too busy to reply to all posts and must choose very carefully. ;)

Because all those things you just mentioned are the small nit-picky details that can be designed around. You take for granted the idea that all of those MMO elements (quests, gear, cities etc) MUST mean they stopped hating each other (or rather, hating for imperium and being condescending douchebags for eldar). You've railroaded 2 factions into 2 sides that are BFFs and can't consider Vigil maintaining the sense of tension through good quest writing, game mechanics, use of neutral locales etc. Seriously, have you played ANY games besides world of warcraft? Go out there and try something new, you might find out that there's plenty of room for creativity left in the gaming industry.

 

And before you bring up what players will do given the fact that the Imperium and Eldar will be on the same side, they're going to buttfuck the lore with or without alliances. Simply by having 1 other person on the server with you, your immersion and IP enjoyment will die in a blazing fire.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/22/11 11:25:15 AM#67
Originally posted by tom_gore

Having more than 2 factions doesn't mean there are more than 2 sides in each battle.

And having GW establish Order vs. Destruction for a long time? Pffft. See how well that worked in WAR for them?

And with 3 factions Dark Age of Camelot never rose above 250k subs and now dwindles around 4k. It must REALLY suck then!

 

See what happens when you jump to conclusions? You miss all that important thinking and reasoning in between.

  Ikonic

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/05/06
Posts: 308

9/22/11 11:29:09 AM#68

I still think the best way to handle two factions is to give modifiers when dealing with other races within your faction.

 

Space Marine Apothecary healing a Space Marine +10%

Space Marine Apothecary Healing Imperial Guard +5%

Space Marine Apothecary healing Eldar -15%

 

This is just an example, but it could expand to other things as well like exp and what not. It will allow other races to group together, but its not ideal. The same could be said for guilds, where people will be looking to make all 1 race guilds to get the most advantages.

  Feydiir

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/08
Posts: 24

9/22/11 11:32:41 AM#69

Why do people keep saying the Eldar and Space Marines are on the same side?  Or that they're the second faction?

 

As for the game being two or three factions, they can both work for PvE reasons. 

If there ends up being open world PvP or some form of area control (Keeps in WHO or DAoC), which there usually ends up being some, then you need a three faction system to even the playing field.  With two factions one side dominates the other and then one side leaves the server for greener pastures.  The losing side heads to a server where their faction is winning or a server that has equal numbers, which then makes the factions lopsided and the cycle continues.  Or people quit, which drives the numbers down.

With the third faction if one side gets too big then the other two can both attack the dominant faction and attack each other at other points.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/22/11 11:33:35 AM#70

If each race were designed on a per-race basis, that would work. But they've said they're not making each race have a functional equal, IE eldar won't have a class that functions like a Space Marine, and Orks won't have a class that functions like Khorne Berzerkers. So design decisions like that only reward those playing the flavor of the month (as everyone wants to roll characters to benefit from their advantage) and punishes those playing something else.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/22/11 1:49:08 PM#71
Originally posted by Feydiir

With the third faction if one side gets too big then the other two can both attack the dominant faction and attack each other at other points.

If your only goal in the game is to deny either of your two enemies victory, then yes, it's in your best interest to do just that. But that's not the only goal, or even the biggest one by quite a large stretch. To the average player, when faced with a choice between trying to take on the alpha faction or picking on the underdog, they'll go for the sure win more than enough times to piss the underdog off. With 2 sides, there's a constant enemy and strength in the simplicity of us vs them. If one tactic didn't work last fight and you lost, you can try again with different tactics to gain the upper hand. There's also the possibility of leveling the playing field with things like increased access to vehicles for the underpopulated realm.

 

On the other hand, if one faction out of 3 is weaker to start off with and they get teamed up against because of that, there's nothing they can do to stop it. That's when the REAL rage-quitting starts.

  grawss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/11
Posts: 438

9/23/11 2:18:05 AM#72



Originally posted by StMichael
Because all those things you just mentioned are the small nit-picky details that can be designed around. You take for granted the idea that all of those MMO elements (quests, gear, cities etc) MUST mean they stopped hating each other (or rather, hating for imperium and being condescending douchebags for eldar). You've railroaded 2 factions into 2 sides that are BFFs and can't consider Vigil maintaining the sense of tension through good quest writing, game mechanics, use of neutral locales etc. Seriously, have you played ANY games besides world of warcraft? Go out there and try something new, you might find out that there's plenty of room for creativity left in the gaming industry.

Actually, World of Warcraft tends to keep their races fairly separate until such time that they run into a neutral faction. They definitely have cross over, but generally the factions are kept apart from one another. And you're right; my apologies for not playing enough MMOs that have multiple factions with a deep seated hatred for one another but must band together in an uneasy fashion in certain situations in order to defeat an enemy that would doom them all had they not had the power of another race to add to their numbers. Perhaps you should point me in the right direction for such an MMO, because all I see is World of Warcraft. And oh look, Warcraft was based on Warhammer.

I've already explained far too much why it wouldn't work as far as cats and dogs living together and such, but something that doesn't get brought up often is not what wouldn't happen between races, but what would: The races would fight each other regardless of their temporary alliance, and removing the ability to fight with another race just wouldn't be kosher. An Eldar passing a Space Marine on the street doesn't result in a head nod, it results in a bullet to the head.

I'm thinking "two factions" is a cover up for a more advanced system that isn't as cut and dry as the generic faction systems out there. The more I argue with trolls and their complete lack of arguments, the more it becomes clear that there really isn't any other way to do it. :/




Originally posted by StMichael
And before you bring up what players will do given the fact that the Imperium and Eldar will be on the same side, they're going to buttfuck the lore with or without alliances. Simply by having 1 other person on the server with you, your immersion and IP enjoyment will die in a blazing fire.


 
Perhaps you should read some of the earlier posts in the thread. You know, before you start throwing out things that have been made extremely clear.

Sarcasm is not a crime!

  grawss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/11
Posts: 438

9/23/11 2:22:18 AM#73
Originally posted by StMichael

On the other hand, if one faction out of 3 is weaker to start off with and they get teamed up against because of that, there's nothing they can do to stop it. That's when the REAL rage-quitting starts.

As opposed to the two faction system, where there is no choice but to pick on the weaker faction.

Or were you implying that the problems and solutions you've used to argue against a three faction system aren't also inherent in a two faction system?

Sarcasm is not a crime!

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

9/23/11 4:22:14 AM#74
Originally posted by StMichael
Originally posted by Feydiir

With the third faction if one side gets too big then the other two can both attack the dominant faction and attack each other at other points.

If your only goal in the game is to deny either of your two enemies victory, then yes, it's in your best interest to do just that. But that's not the only goal, or even the biggest one by quite a large stretch. To the average player, when faced with a choice between trying to take on the alpha faction or picking on the underdog, they'll go for the sure win more than enough times to piss the underdog off. With 2 sides, there's a constant enemy and strength in the simplicity of us vs them. If one tactic didn't work last fight and you lost, you can try again with different tactics to gain the upper hand. There's also the possibility of leveling the playing field with things like increased access to vehicles for the underpopulated realm.

 

On the other hand, if one faction out of 3 is weaker to start off with and they get teamed up against because of that, there's nothing they can do to stop it. That's when the REAL rage-quitting starts.

Not really mate, you're not taking into account that the factions are supposed to be fighting over RESOURCES rather than a chance to "piss someone off". The underdog faction will have the least resources and therefore be the least interesting to attack. Yeah, as a middle faction you can go and kick the underdog "just because" but you'll be digging your own grave by doing so because you could be spending that time and effort attacking someone who actually has something to steal. It would be much more profitable for you to team up with the underdog and together try take away some the big pile of loot the top dog has hoarded.

As I mentioned before, a mmo persistent world operates on different rules than a one-off battle. That's why I'm a bit sceptical of 3-way one-off insta battles in the new WH MOBA game... Can't  these guys do anything right? 2-faction persistent world and 3-faction quick match lobby game? Don't they know ANYTHING? They've got their asses completely the wrong way around! Sheesh...

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

9/23/11 5:28:30 AM#75
Originally posted by StMichael
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Imo if you want to create a dynamic, persistent conflict-driven setting you must have an absolute minimum of 3 independent factions. A game with 2 factions is inherently unstable and therefore better suited for one-off events, that is when you want someone to eventually win. And in a mmorpg you don't want any faction to actually do win-win the whole MMORPG, now do you?

But this IS a one time event setting. The MMO is set in the conflict over the Sargos Sector, not the entire 40k galaxy. You're expecting an all-inclusive conflict that delivers all of warhammer 40k in a box, but nothing can do that. It's not just space marines, orks, guardsmen, chaos, eldar, and so on. It's beyond the scope and scale of being fully represented probably within our lifetimes, and certainly within this decade.

 

So instead of trying to achieve the impossible and failing at it, Vigil is giving us one small slice of the galaxy that happens to be split into Order and Destruction.

I'm not arguing lore here AT ALL. Im arguing basic game mechanics here. It's dead simple - if you want your fights to inherently tend towards a wining condition (a BG, scenario, battle, war) then you want 2 factions. If you want a persistent conflict that ultimately has no winner (a world) then you need 3+ factions.

Ideally, a WH40K game that is actually driven by player conflict should have 3+ factions in the persistent world PvP and 2 factions in particular fights (such as instanced BGs).

WH40K online might take place in a sector that is divided into two factions, but all wars do tend towards froming 2 factions and therefore ending.. and WE DONT WANT THAT IN A GAME THAT IS NEVER SUPPOSED TO END AT ALL. That's the real basis for all the 3-faction arguments in mmos.

Maybe it is the WG's fault? Their own game structure is based on one-off fights between clashing armies rather than a persistent world with no ultimate "end to war." (Yes, it says differently in the lore but notice I'm talking game mechanics here. They can write whatever they want in lore. They could say they're all pink bunnies but it wouldn't influence how the game plays one bit) In tabletop battles someone has to clearly win, right? Well in a WORLD that is a mmo you DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO PERMANENTLY WIN. I've been doing some boardgame design myself and I can tell you that 2-player games inherently tend towards a win. The big problem in 3+ player games is that you usually need to add arbitrary winning mechanics in order to push the players towards someone winning and actually finishing the game. Otherwise they would just take stabs at each other indefinitely... which is actually something YOU WANT in a mmorpg persistent world.

  Feydiir

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/08
Posts: 24

9/23/11 3:32:05 PM#76
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by StMichael
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Imo if you want to create a dynamic, persistent conflict-driven setting you must have an absolute minimum of 3 independent factions. A game with 2 factions is inherently unstable and therefore better suited for one-off events, that is when you want someone to eventually win. And in a mmorpg you don't want any faction to actually do win-win the whole MMORPG, now do you?

But this IS a one time event setting. The MMO is set in the conflict over the Sargos Sector, not the entire 40k galaxy. You're expecting an all-inclusive conflict that delivers all of warhammer 40k in a box, but nothing can do that. It's not just space marines, orks, guardsmen, chaos, eldar, and so on. It's beyond the scope and scale of being fully represented probably within our lifetimes, and certainly within this decade.

 

So instead of trying to achieve the impossible and failing at it, Vigil is giving us one small slice of the galaxy that happens to be split into Order and Destruction.

I'm not arguing lore here AT ALL. Im arguing basic game mechanics here. It's dead simple - if you want your fights to inherently tend towards a wining condition (a BG, scenario, battle, war) then you want 2 factions. If you want a persistent conflict that ultimately has no winner (a world) then you need 3+ factions.

Ideally, a WH40K game that is actually driven by player conflict should have 3+ factions in the persistent world PvP and 2 factions in particular fights (such as instanced BGs).

WH40K online might take place in a sector that is divided into two factions, but all wars do tend towards froming 2 factions and therefore ending.. and WE DONT WANT THAT IN A GAME THAT IS NEVER SUPPOSED TO END AT ALL. That's the real basis for all the 3-faction arguments in mmos.

Maybe it is the WG's fault? Their own game structure is based on one-off fights between clashing armies rather than a persistent world with no ultimate "end to war." (Yes, it says differently in the lore but notice I'm talking game mechanics here. They can write whatever they want in lore. They could say they're all pink bunnies but it wouldn't influence how the game plays one bit) In tabletop battles someone has to clearly win, right? Well in a WORLD that is a mmo you DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO PERMANENTLY WIN. I've been doing some boardgame design myself and I can tell you that 2-player games inherently tend towards a win. The big problem in 3+ player games is that you usually need to add arbitrary winning mechanics in order to push the players towards someone winning and actually finishing the game. Otherwise they would just take stabs at each other indefinitely... which is actually something YOU WANT in a mmorpg persistent world.

I agree 100%, two factions kill a game unless all the PvP is in arenas or battlefronts or scenerios.  If there is any open world conflict and some form of resource or base capture that third faction goes a long way to making the game enjoyable.  In a two faction system one side always ends up dominating the other side.  Sure the smallest faction could get piled up on, but then the middle faction is gonna end up getting stomped down by the large faction after everything is said and done. 

In Dark Age of Camelot (DAoC) the smaller factions some days would lose everything, but after everyone got out of work/school when people actually logged in, they'd grab their keeps back from the enemies and then go into their areas fighting.  Sure some people left, but not as quickly as I've seen people leave a two faction server.

In WAR (or WHO depending on who you talk to) the two faction system brought the game down (plus bad character balance and a few other things) because one side would dominate the other in open field RVR/PVP.  The only way for one side to get anything in the way of keeps or battle objectives was for them to "back cap", which was just going through areas your enemy had already been and taking it back while the enmy concentrated their efforts in other zones.  If you wanted some fights one side would zerg the other.  Thats no fun for anyone... well maybe the PvEers who just wanted to grind gear, but whats the point if you're looking for a fight?  All it turned into was a giant game of ring around the rosie, if I wanted that I could become a hippie.

At that point you have the losing side leaving for servers where the faction they want to be on is stronger, which just creates even more of a problem.  With a three plus faction system you would still have people doing that but not as much because there is options.  Go hit another faction, while the dominant faction is fighting another faction hit them from behind, or go for third faction.  It also adds a bit of suspense.  "We're in Ork territory, but look there's some Eldar coming at us!"  You never know who you'll run into.

Again this post was based on the idea that there will be some world PvP.

EDIT:  Wanted to post a bit more about the three faction system.

I've seen the two weaker factions go after the dominant faction for a while just to knock them down a few pegs.  Once that was said and done then the other two factions would proceeed to go after each other again.  No one from the two weaker factions said lets go after the zerg, it just sort of happens if one side gets too big.

  Tazlor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/10
Posts: 882

9/23/11 3:43:31 PM#77

They should make a new MMORPG called Bitch world, and all you do is bitch about other MMORPGs. That would be a huge success because apparently everybody around here loves to bitch about every game that's coming out and every feature in the game.

 

Give it a rest.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/23/11 9:06:27 PM#78

Hold on a second, you're willing to [mod edit] about a game you know next to nothing about based on its lack of inclusion of a game system that has been used in all of 2 games to date (neither of which really achieved any real success) and I'M the close-minded one?

I'm done. You won't listen to anything I say because it flies in the face of your precious 3 faction dogma. At the end of all this, I'm still getting the game I want instead of having to whine on an unofficial forum about not getting my way. When it finally gets released, you can either play it, or put faith in SoE to make a good game.

  xKingdomx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/10
Posts: 1550

9/23/11 9:15:09 PM#79

they always just make server vs server vs server, or WvWvW like GW2. Introducing a faction for the the sake of introducing it will be fail, no matter what the intentions are.

 

Stop thinking there is only one way to do things, that is the reason why we even have the 'clone' phase started, because most developers think there are only one way to make a good MMO.

How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

9/24/11 4:02:03 AM#80
Originally posted by xKingdomx

Stop thinking there is only one way to do things, that is the reason why we even have the 'clone' phase started, because most developers think there are only one way to make a good MMO.

So instead of coming up with something creative on the mechanics side to compliment the lore-based decision, they should clone a game that better suits your tastes?

That's really all I'm hearing. They shouldn't go with us vs them, because that would be cloning. Instead, they should be "original" and mimic an eleven year old game based on nothing more than some fantasy theory of "balance."

Which path is the real clone? Making your own adaptation of a two sided struggle, or following in the footsteps of a 3 sided one?

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