I don't consider progression as being newb unfriendly.  The real issue I see is boring content.  Dreadfully slow, totally unengaging lowbie levels would turn me off too.  Another is unrealistic expectations.  MMORPGs are progression oriented and there's going to be more fun and flashy content as levels go up.

Funny but now that I think about it, between grinding and slow progression, MMORPGs really are a boring genre.  More than half of the time it's work in order to get ready to play.

Rats!?!? The fighters guild is fighting rats?!?!  ~ TES Oblivion

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Clearly there is separation there in design that we aren't seeing, and I'm placing all bets on the pricing model being at its rotten core.

Not necessarily.  MMO's are descended from single-player RPGs and MUDs--and there's some design holdover from the Old Days, certainly.  But the one thing all three genres have in common is "achieve player addiction via a parade of short-term goals", starting slow with your little stick-figure guy carrying a club, and advancing to the biggest badass the world has ever known.

In the end, the progression of story follows the same pattern in almost every fantasy novel/series ever published.  You don't start as a kid on a farm and become the mega-hero without a lot of time spent learning and achieving.

Why is that fantasy theme so common?  It makes for a good story.

Why are MMO vets bored with it?  Been there, done that.

While it does seem fair that devs should focus putting interesting content for the end-game players I don't think it would hurt to have more games put some lower level raids, dungeons, and the like that still provides the player with the amount of fun an end-game battle has without "end-game" character gear, level, and other forms of progression.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 Why should a game suck until you get to the end? Why not make it fun from the first moment. How many people would sit through a boring three hour movie if only the last five minutes were good? 

How many people would play a game for multiple years if everything was achievable immediately?

MMOs are about progression and upgrading your character gradually.  If you want awesome power immediately, you might want to look at FPS.

 Lots of ways to make a game fun without giving away the farm. If the leveling itself isn't fun, and in MMOs it almost never is, the game failed in it's primary mission to entertain the customer.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 Lots of ways to make a game fun without giving away the farm. If the leveling itself isn't fun, and in MMOs it almost never is, the game failed in it's primary mission to entertain the customer.

On the other hand, instant gratification also fails the customer.

Originally posted by Icewhite

starting slow with your little stick-figure guy carrying a club

I remember killing green slime on the original 8 bit Nintendo.  Those were great fun.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 Lots of ways to make a game fun without giving away the farm. If the leveling itself isn't fun, and in MMOs it almost never is, the game failed in it's primary mission to entertain the customer.

On the other hand, instant gratification also fails the customer.

Not to mention defeats the intent of MMOs which is continued subscription.

If you enjoyed the hours that you put into the game, then I don't see the problem.

If you were just grinding hoping it would get better later, then you may wish to try reading up on a game before jumping in.  It's not some great mystery what games are like.  Read the web site, the manual, the wiki, the forums, whatever.  There's lots of information out there.

Originally posted by zRoflcoptorz

While it does seem fair that devs should focus putting interesting content for the end-game players I don't think it would hurt to have more games put some lower level raids, dungeons, and the like that still provides the player with the amount of fun an end-game battle has without "end-game" character gear, level, and other forms of progression.

Vanilla WoW addressed this with instances like Wailing Caverns and Ragefire Chasm.  Level 15 and 20 character at least got a taste of decent content.  When I was starting there wasn't the rush to level-cap mentality like there currently is, but most of the playerbase wasn't level-cap so there were plenty of others to share the lower level progression content.

Once a game gets top-heavy, the progression in game seems to get distorted.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Clearly there is separation there in design that we aren't seeing, and I'm placing all bets on the pricing model being at its rotten core.

Not necessarily.  MMO's are descended from single-player RPGs and MUDs--and there's some design holdover from the Old Days, certainly.  But the one thing all three genres have in common is "achieve player addiction via a parade of short-term goals", starting slow with your little stick-figure guy carrying a club, and advancing to the biggest badass the world has ever known.

In the end, the progression of story follows the same pattern in almost every fantasy novel/series ever published.  You don't start as a kid on a farm and become the mega-hero without a lot of time spent learning and achieving.

Why is that fantasy theme so common?  It makes for a good story.

Why are MMO vets bored with it?  Been there, done that.

 Your right in thats how single player games have worked for a long long time.  But what MMO's do wrong is have the short-term goals and have the player weak and starting slow with little man holding stick last much much longer than those single player games.  And those novels that you spoke of last 1 or 2 chapters of the young meek hero learning the ropes, then quickly advance to the daring adventures that makes the book so worth reading.

The fact is that MMO devs make these "learning" areas last soooo long, and have it grind heavy and ultimately unfun to keep you playing, and keep you paying.  Which is why I agree that this pay model that we have is at the heart of the boring low level content.  You HAVE to play a hundred hours before it gets good so you HAVE to pay a couple more months of subscription fee's in order to get to the awsome stuff.  Which is a damn shame.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 Lots of ways to make a game fun without giving away the farm. If the leveling itself isn't fun, and in MMOs it almost never is, the game failed in it's primary mission to entertain the customer.

On the other hand, instant gratification also fails the customer.

 No I'm pretty sure instant and continually increasing gratification is the point.  I'd rather not beat my head against a wall in hopes it will feel good when I stop.

Originally posted by slicknslim88

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Clearly there is separation there in design that we aren't seeing, and I'm placing all bets on the pricing model being at its rotten core.

Not necessarily.  MMO's are descended from single-player RPGs and MUDs--and there's some design holdover from the Old Days, certainly.  But the one thing all three genres have in common is "achieve player addiction via a parade of short-term goals", starting slow with your little stick-figure guy carrying a club, and advancing to the biggest badass the world has ever known.

In the end, the progression of story follows the same pattern in almost every fantasy novel/series ever published.  You don't start as a kid on a farm and become the mega-hero without a lot of time spent learning and achieving.

Why is that fantasy theme so common?  It makes for a good story.

Why are MMO vets bored with it?  Been there, done that.

 Your right in thats how single player games have worked for a long long time.  But what MMO's do wrong is have the short-term goals and have the player weak and starting slow with little man holding stick last much much longer than those single player games.  And those novels that you spoke of last 1 or 2 chapters of the young meek hero learning the ropes, then quickly advance to the daring adventures that makes the book so worth reading.

The fact is that MMO devs make these "learning" areas last soooo long, and have it grind heavy and ultimately unfun to keep you playing, and keep you paying.  Which is why I agree that this pay model that we have is at the heart of the boring low level content.  You HAVE to play a hundred hours before it gets good so you HAVE to pay a couple more months of subscription fee's in order to get to the awsome stuff.  Which is a damn shame.

 And now we are getting to the root of the problem. MMo's just arent your thing.

Even single play games make you start out weak, but the difference is a single play game is designed to be played for short term. Depending on the hours you can play you can complete them only hours after buying them.

Mmo's are designed for long term , but you dont start off no where near as bad as you describe. Encounters do scale to a degree. Infact a new character kills the mobs faster then you would at max lvl, unless ofcourse you are decked out, then its about as fast.

And again most mmos get  you the basic skills very fast after creation, most of the time by the time you get to lvl 10, you already have more skills then you can cycle through to kill a mob.

So again the problem is your taste in games NOT the actual game.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I'm pretty sure instant and continually increasing gratification is the point.  I'd rather not beat my head against a wall in hopes it will feel good when I stop.

Well, that's stated a little hyperbolically, but yes, MMOs do slowly increase gratification by design.

Instant gratification, on the other hand, not only makes for a very bad game but also a short-lived one.  Give the OP what he asked for and no game ever provides long-term entertainment.  The game fails the player in the very worst possible way, he's looking for a new game to play almost immediately.

Let's skip the 85 levels in WoW, and go directly to gear grind, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars.

How much louder will the "omggeargrind" complaining be, and how much shorter will the average customer play?

It's a combination of over-hyping a game, and players expecting too much from the game. Both sides are at fault. That is why trailers are totally garbage unless you show purely segements from the game, and in actual gameplay. The player is then left to decide what to think, and most over exagerate. To a extent, it takes 2 to make something wrong or right.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by jinxxed0

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by slicknslim88

So you download the MMO, jump into gameplay and are all excited, make your character, jump in and it's so....boring.  The content they show you in the advertisement you don't get to see for over a hundred hours of playtime, and possibly just as much money to get you there too when it comes to a free MMO.  I've been suckered many times, havn't really paid but I've put many hours into a free MMO just waiting for it to get good, and it never seems to.

So you want to...start the game capped?  Not sure you'll find a lot of support for that position.

Pretty sure he wants mmo devs to stop making shitty games...

Can you determine the quality of the game if you never step out of the low level content?

 Why should a game suck until you get to the end? Why not make it fun from the first moment. How many people would sit through a boring three hour movie if only the last five minutes were good? 

same reason a Trial account never shows you the full game.

 

Endgame is where the true game is. Leveling is the training and Trial and Testing grounds in many games.

 

some games dont have a endgame, and leveling is fully the contents, but what do you do once leveling stops?

 

always a trade off

I didn't read this whole thread, or much of it really, because this kinda caught my attention. This is why so many game companies are putting out these crap-tacular games now days that are only fun after you waste tons of time slogging your way thru terrible content. Why can't games be fun beggining, middle and end? Why should they only cater to the people who can find the time to waste speed levelling thru mind-numbing, soul-crusing content to get to end game content, whether it's pve or pvp? This aweful mindset "Endgame is where the true game is" is why the mmo market is bogged down by failing, terrible games.

To me, it isn't the having all the abilities. Part of an RPG is growing in power and diversity of abilities.

The real problem is the kill ten rats syndrome. I want to be weaker, and not have all the complexity and power of a fully developed character. But because of that power discrepancy, game designers seem to think players want to cut their teeth on rats and wolves and petty thugs. And that might not be so bad if the content was interesting.

It isn't.

We want fun content from level one, that is not directly related having everything available at level one. It is about having fun things available at level one. I can think of at least one game that seems to have solved this problem. I'll give you one guess.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I'm pretty sure instant and continually increasing gratification is the point.  I'd rather not beat my head against a wall in hopes it will feel good when I stop.

Well, that's stated a little hyperbolically, but yes, MMOs do slowly increase gratification by design.

Instant gratification, on the other hand, not only makes for a very bad game but also a short-lived one.  Give the OP what he asked for and no game ever provides long-term entertainment.  The game fails the player in the very worst possible way, he's looking for a new game to play almost immediately.

Let's skip the 85 levels in WoW, and go directly to gear grind, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars.

How much louder will the "omggeargrind" complaining be, and how much shorter will the average customer play?

 WoW is horrible pretty much beginning to end and beyond as far as I'm concerned. I subscribed for 0 months so making leveling painfully boring didn't exactly keep me subscribed.  I'll play a game that gives me what I asked for beginjning to end for a long time. I played Starcraft for 11 years. There was no part of that game I didn't enjoy. Yup even the tutorial where you had to build barracks. I don't buy the theory that we have to somehow "earn" endgame by putting up with weeks of crap. It's just not true. Things can be difficult and fun at the same time.

Originally posted by Ravnos80

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by jinxxed0

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by slicknslim88

So you download the MMO, jump into gameplay and are all excited, make your character, jump in and it's so....boring.  The content they show you in the advertisement you don't get to see for over a hundred hours of playtime, and possibly just as much money to get you there too when it comes to a free MMO.  I've been suckered many times, havn't really paid but I've put many hours into a free MMO just waiting for it to get good, and it never seems to.

So you want to...start the game capped?  Not sure you'll find a lot of support for that position.

Pretty sure he wants mmo devs to stop making shitty games...

Can you determine the quality of the game if you never step out of the low level content?

 Why should a game suck until you get to the end? Why not make it fun from the first moment. How many people would sit through a boring three hour movie if only the last five minutes were good? 

same reason a Trial account never shows you the full game.

 

Endgame is where the true game is. Leveling is the training and Trial and Testing grounds in many games.

 

some games dont have a endgame, and leveling is fully the contents, but what do you do once leveling stops?

 

always a trade off

I didn't read this whole thread, or much of it really, because this kinda caught my attention. This is why so many game companies are putting out these crap-tacular games now days that are only fun after you waste tons of time slogging your way thru terrible content. Why can't games be fun beggining, middle and end? Why should they only cater to the people who can find the time to waste speed levelling thru mind-numbing, soul-crusing content to get to end game content, whether it's pve or pvp? This aweful mindset "Endgame is where the true game is" is why the mmo market is bogged down by failing, terrible games.

 And thats just not true. THough yes, end game is what players ussually enjoy the most.

But again. Part of the reason why it takes some what longer to get to more skills is because they are designed for long term.

Especially newer mmos start you off and get you to lower level versions of those "epic"fightts, ussually in single group formations.

But then again lets look at single play games, THEY DO THE SAME THING.

To pick one of the longest running RPG saga's.

Final fantasy, you start off weak, crappy gear , little to no materia to use, even the boss fight is simplistic, till later.

Time needed to complete the game? 5-12hours.

Diablo? Same thing, poor weapons, hack sack dead mobs, weak and simple attack skills.

How about fps then?

Seen the trailers and gameplay trailers of Crysis2? Saw those massive riffles, rocket launchers or even the 50mm gatling?

You dont HAVE a weapon at the start, and when you finally DO get one its a crappy pistol.

Time to complete? 4-6 hours.

Or wait! F.e.a.r. 3

Huge riffles, sniper riffles and even a 2 different types of mechs!

You start out with a crappy dagger then a crappy gun.

Time to complete 3-5 hours.

So even single play games have those massive epic trailers and start you off weak.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

To me, it isn't the having all the abilities. Part of an RPG is growing in power and diversity of abilities.

The real problem is the kill ten rats syndrome. I want to be weaker, and not have all the complexity and power of a fully developed character. But because of that power discrepancy, game designers seem to think players want to cut their teeth on rats and wolves and petty thugs. And that might not be so bad if the content was interesting.

It isn't.

We want fun content from level one, that is not directly related having everything available at level one. It is about having fun things available at level one. I can think of at least one game that seems to have solved this problem. I'll give you one guess.

 DCUO?

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I'm pretty sure instant and continually increasing gratification is the point.  I'd rather not beat my head against a wall in hopes it will feel good when I stop.

Well, that's stated a little hyperbolically, but yes, MMOs do slowly increase gratification by design.

Instant gratification, on the other hand, not only makes for a very bad game but also a short-lived one.  Give the OP what he asked for and no game ever provides long-term entertainment.  The game fails the player in the very worst possible way, he's looking for a new game to play almost immediately.

Let's skip the 85 levels in WoW, and go directly to gear grind, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars.

How much louder will the "omggeargrind" complaining be, and how much shorter will the average customer play?

 WoW is horrible pretty much beginning to end and beyond as far as I'm concerned. I subscribed for 0 months so making leveling painfully boring didn't exactly keep me subscribed.  I'll play a game that gives me what I asked for beginjning to end for a long time. I played Starcraft for 11 years. There was no part of that game I didn't enjoy. Yup even the tutorial where you had to build barracks. I don't buy the theory that we have to somehow "earn" endgame by putting up with weeks of crap. It's just not true. Things can be difficult and fun at the same time.

 I find it funny though.

Even in multi play you start off weak and have to build your base and army to get to a point to actually be able to engage. :P