Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Normike

/popcorn

This is some of the most entertaining stuff. 

You got the posters who think gay people are "very rare" and this is a non issue. lol

In business that is actually quite accurate.

Oh really?

I've worked for many businesses, in many offices and I've never worked in one that didn't have gay people.

At all.

I'm also pretty sure that the entertainment business (which brings in a few dollars per year) , in all its forms, has quite a few gay people.

yup, that''s right, the movies, music, books, TV and even games actually have real life gay people.

I'm sure many gay people are working very hard at this very moment to bring you the games you are waiting for.

Here's the difference: we ain't talking about gay employees but consumers.

We're talking about a move that might disgruntle a tiny fraction of their consumers

So it's ok for gay people to make products that straight people consume but if they ask to be included in the demographic for their products they can be told "no, get back to work"?

I understand the business reasons behind their decision but it still doesn't convince me that gays and lesbians shouldn't be annoyed.

Also, we don't know what % of players are gay or lesbian or transgendered or "whatever". Maybe there are a lot of gay and lesbian and transgendered gamers.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Normike

/popcorn

This is some of the most entertaining stuff. 

You got the posters who think gay people are "very rare" and this is a non issue. lol

In business that is actually quite accurate.

Oh really?

I've worked for many businesses, in many offices and I've never worked in one that didn't have gay people.

At all.

I'm also pretty sure that the entertainment business (which brings in a few dollars per year) , in all its forms, has quite a few gay people.

yup, that''s right, the movies, music, books, TV and even games actually have real life gay people.

I'm sure many gay people are working very hard at this very moment to bring you the games you are waiting for.

Here's the difference: we ain't talking about gay employees but consumers.

We're talking about a move that might disgruntle a tiny fraction of their consumers

So it's ok for gay people to make products that straight people consume but if they ask to be included in the demographic for their products then they can be told "no, get back to work"?

I understand the business reasons behind their decision but it still doesn't convince me that gays and lesbians shouldn't be annoyed.

Well i guess they can annoyed if they wish to. But i don't see it. Now if a game based on a certain universe/lore would purposely leave out same sex relations while the original universe obviously included it. Sure.

But as far as i know it wasn't the case in star wars. They didn't do anything homophobic or whatever. They just didn't add something.

Gay people can be annoyed just like i would be annoyed if a game wouldn't add a feature i'd like to see.

But let's not make of this issue some great tolerance crusade.

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Normike

/popcorn

This is some of the most entertaining stuff. 

You got the posters who think gay people are "very rare" and this is a non issue. lol

In business that is actually quite accurate.

You got the posters who think gay people are equivalent to being attracted to a box or an animal. lol

While i disagree based on certain premises what would be the difference according to you?

You got the posters who think gay people aren't really discriminated against or ignored in games so what's the issue. lol

And they're correct. Or wait lemmi guess WoW discriminates against asians because there are no asian type characters.

You got the posters who think gay discrimination is normal for gaming, so whats the big deal.  lol

You got the posters who think the gay issue is more adult and explicit-y than being straight. lol

 

It reminds me when I was in highschool and this bully was telling a joke about this black classmate and he used the term "porch monkey" and everyone laughed. And my eye balls almost fell out of my head. Is this really happening? Or the time one of my co-workers said she couldn't stand chinese. Almost spit out my coffee.

 

I think this is the kind of thread that just attracts people like that. They see their prejudice and the way they were raised as if everyone thinks like that.

-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."

-People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 

-The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination.

That's like saying not every company needs to have a black employee. But when you have a pattern of companies not hiring black employees, then there's definitely some discrimination going on. Here's a list of games where the main character, if not all the characters, are assumed to be straight by default.

Grand Theft Auto 2, 3
Half Life 1, 2
finalFantasy 7,8
Baldurs Gate 1, 2
The Legend of Zelda
Planescape: Torment
Everquest
Oregon Trail
Thief: The Dark Project
Fallout
God of War 1, 2, 3
Gears of War 1, 2
Far Cry
Dead Space 1, 2
Indigo Prophecy
City of Heroes/ Villains
Batman Arkham Asylum
Dead or Alive 1, 2, 3, 4
World of Warcraft
Xmen Legends 1, 2
Left 4 Dead 1, 2

and much much more.

Originally posted by Mardukk

I haven't played an MMO where any of this would matter and you haven't either.  I'm guessing someone has some inside info that relationships with NPCs are a major part of this game?

If this really is an NPC relationship heavy game I can see how OP would be upset...and many others for different reasons.

I'm not sure just how important the romantic relationships in this game will matter, but relationships in general with companion npc's do matter in this game. How good or bad your relationship with your companion npc's, all of them, determine their bonuses on nearly everything they do, from combat to crafting.

There are options for romantic relationships with npc's as well, but they aren't going to be all that important except to the people who enjoy the story involved. Romance with npc's is a mainstay in Bioware games. However I suspect the vast majority of players won't even bother with that aspect of this game and that those that do may even face ridicule. Perhaps not from the Bioware fanbase, but I can definitely see this happening from those outside the Bioware fanbase.

Personally, I think they made the right decision to leave that aspect out and I have multiple reasons for believing so.

It's just a development option. The developers had the option to put only gay relationships in the game, but they didn't. They had the option to put full-fledged space combat in the game, but didn't. There are a lot of things many people expected to be in the game that are not. You can still RP a gay hero, a bisexual hero, or a celebate hero regardless of the game mechanics and development decisions. It's not like they are persecuting homosexuals in the game. If it's not in the game, use your imagination.

I have absolutely no idea what this guy is talking about.

Wow, just... wow. What a sad little world we all make it.

Personally I think ANY NPC romance options in a game are weird. Especially when you consider there WILL be folks under 18 playing. But if you are going so far as to put them in, including romance options outside of your own species, I don't see the harm in adding same gender romances. I hated in Dragon Age that I was basically FORCED into a sexual encounter at the very end or lose the NPC I had specced as my healer (thanks to an add-on that let me pick NPC path) right before the last battle.

To the original poster:

You should boycott SW:TOR, because frankly they are boycotting you. But then I also believe LBGT folks should refuse to pay Federal and State taxes for as long as they are treated like second class citizens, call me a radical.

And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?

Yeah, you probably would.

For you people arguing that the movies didn't have anything like this so why should the game? In six movies there are three romances, the first a narrowly avoided brother-sister affair (thank you for the timely AT-AT invasion), the second a rebounding spoiled princess getting involved with an admitted drug runner, and the last an older woman with a younger mentally and emotionally disturbed younger man who ends up killing her. I see your point, because these are all great role models. And honestly if in RotJ you really thought Luke was straight, you'd probably never notice anything they could do in SW:TOR.

I can understand the companies involved in this release may be fearing some public outcry from a very vocal minority if they chose to include this kind of option, but then why go down this road and include any at all?

You know folks, we all have far more in common than we do different, and yet we chose to focus on the different and use it as a source of hate, fear, ignorance and disrespect. Sad little world with sad little people.

Originally posted by Normike

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Normike

/popcorn

This is some of the most entertaining stuff. 

You got the posters who think gay people are "very rare" and this is a non issue. lol

In business that is actually quite accurate.

You got the posters who think gay people are equivalent to being attracted to a box or an animal. lol

While i disagree based on certain premises what would be the difference according to you?

You got the posters who think gay people aren't really discriminated against or ignored in games so what's the issue. lol

And they're correct. Or wait lemmi guess WoW discriminates against asians because there are no asian type characters.

You got the posters who think gay discrimination is normal for gaming, so whats the big deal.  lol

You got the posters who think the gay issue is more adult and explicit-y than being straight. lol

 

It reminds me when I was in highschool and this bully was telling a joke about this black classmate and he used the term "porch monkey" and everyone laughed. And my eye balls almost fell out of my head. Is this really happening? Or the time one of my co-workers said she couldn't stand chinese. Almost spit out my coffee.

 

I think this is the kind of thread that just attracts people like that. They see their prejudice and the way they were raised as if everyone thinks like that.

-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare."

You'll have to link me those numbers from reliable sources matey. I won't believe your word for it.

-People who think that gay relationships are the same as being attracted to a box or an animal are comparable to people who think blacks or asians are animals... 

Nice dodge. You claim that yet you can't find any reasons.

Find me reasons, i have some, but i want to hear some from those great crusaders.

-The vast majority of games include heterosexual sexuality (not sex) and ignore homosexuality, even though there almost as many gay gamers as there are black gamers. Yet many games include black characters. The reason gay characters are often not written into games is due to writers and designers not wanting to deal with the issue. That's discriminatin, whether indirect or direct. It's still discrimination.

No it's not discrimination. It would be discrimnation to force people to deal with such issues. A discrimination against heterosexuals because people don't have the choice anymore to limit their products to that.

 

That's like saying not every company needs to have a black employee. But when you have a pattern of companies not hiring black employees, then there's definitely some discrimination going on. Here's a list of games where the main character, if not all the characters, are assumed to be straight by default.

 

I haven't always agreed with you on these forums Elikal, but I do agree with you on this. It is unfair that they are not catering to you and yours as well. I really do feel for you...

I can understand why Bioware may have made this choice, however. They got a lot of negative attention in the media for allowing same sex relations in their previous games (and sex relations in period). Since they are trying to appeal to the broadest spectrum of players possible with this game, I am not surprised that they made this choice. I'm not saying its the right one...

Some of it has to do with laziness, I'm afraid.  They don't want a companion to misread the player's friendship and make a move on the player character.  Having one story line will keep Timmy' from stumbling on dialog options only intended for certain players, if this makes any sense.

Its a double standard for sure though.

If you want you can always prentend you're being ravaged by your wookie friend in the cargo hold of your ship though even if there's no dialog options leading up to that.

I really wanted to make a lesbian trooper and bang every female npc all the way to Alderan, oh well, sucks.

Just wanted to add that I don't think it's really fair to jump on Bioware for not including same sex relationships in SWTOR.

Of almost any game company out there, Bioware has made huge strides in terms of including the gay community in gaming.  How many other games include same sex romance options?  Not many, at least not any I can think of.

I feel like BW has always been a steadfast ally of the gay community and now you all are jumping on them because they aren't including a gay romance in ONE game.  A little unfair I think.  If they stop including gay relationships in EVERY game, then okay you can bash them.  But just one game?  Cut them some slack.  They really took a lot of risks with gay relationships in other games, especially in a time where there is a lot of bigotry against gay people in the US.

Originally posted by hundejahre

And for all you whiny little white straight men out there crying "Get over yourself!" and "What do you expect?", would you be saying the same thing if they announced thee would be no romance options for blacks? The handicapped? Women?

Yeah, you probably would.

You cannot compare race, the handicapped nor women in this. Those three examples are natural...gay is not natural. Men and women were designed to be with the opposite sex. And if you call me homophobe, so be it. I will accept that...

While I do not care at all about RA in games, I do understand where Elikal is coming from. When there is straight RA in the game, why not gay RA. Because there are still so many intollerant (or simple minded in other words) people in this world? Those people shouldn't have voting rights to begin with, because there is no valid reasoning to justify such a position. I am always surprised to see how many Americans think they have the right to protest against gay-mariage. Because they dislike something, they are able to take basic human rights of people, as if their opinion is somehow important in the matter. Only objective, rational reasoning has a place in such big affairs, and these should be void of any opinion or belief.

OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

kill...

eat other people...

sell drugs...

do exercisms..

rape...

run around naked...

but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Biggus99

 

So, just so I understand...people are actually upset because they can't make out with a same-sex companion IN A VIDEO GAME? Really?!?

Look, I'm all for gay and lesbian rights in real life, but if you are honestly upset because you can't carry out some fictional relationship with a same-sex AI-controlled partner that happens to be pixelated...then it's time to seriously evaluate your social life, and maybe your mental state.  

I mean I know the fact that we all play MMO's proves that we've got some nerd-like qualities to begin with, but c'mon...this is jumping the nerd shark, so to speak.  

No I don't think you do understand.

Some gays and lesbians are upset that there will be relationships in the game, which bioware has always done, but are not including an option to have relationships that better reflect their interests... which bioware has done in many of their games.

Secondly, I find it interesting to see people "for gay and lesbian rights" and proclaim they aren't homophobic or that they are completley understanding of gays but when it comes time for gays to ask to be included at the table these understanding and pro-gay rights people can't understand why?

being for gay rights and not homophobic doesn't just mean you are a nice person and won't hunt them down on sight. It means you are understanding of their issues and are supportive of their position to be included as equal citizens with all the rights, perks, etc that that would mean.

Whether that means giving them the right to marry or to include depictions of their lifestyle in movies, books and vidoe games that have story and characters.

As far as "pixelated images" sexualtiy and romantic relations have been depicted loooooong before the camera was ever invented or even conceived. Remember, erotica is in the mind first and foremost.

That's all fine and well, but your post is inaccurate when you depict people who think this is a pretty pathetic thing to get upset about as not being genuine.  My point is simply this:  If you, as a gay or lesbian, are upset about not being able to have fake sex with an AI-controlled companion in a video game, you need to seriously evaluate just exactly went wrong with your real life.  Period.  I can GUARANTEE you that I am genuine when I say I support gay/lebian rights.  If there is a candidate on a ballot that believes that same-sex marriage should not be legalized, or prefers to throw the gay/lesbian community a bone with the same sex "domestic partner" union instead...that person doesn't get my vote.  Period.  To me, this is a no-brainer, and I don't think any group of people should be denied basic human rights based on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  So, when I say I am for gay and lesbian rights, I mean it, despite your attempt to label me otherwise. That still doesn't change the fact that it's simply pathetic and sad to get upset over this.  It is for gays and lesbians, and it is for straights.  

Anyone who is honestly playing this game and getting excited about the chance to get some AI-controlled nookie has got serious issues, and needs to figure out what went wrong with their lives.  I don't give a crap if this game is supposed to be so immersive with the storytelling or not.  If BioWare is giving this relationship facet even a small amount of importance, then they are doing something seriously wrong.  I know the game is inhabited by Star Wars nerds, but c'mon...this is just ridiculous.  Now, if this game has a system in place for actual players in the game to get married, like many MMOs do, then by all means, raise some hell if it doesn't allow for same-sex marriages.  I'm all for that.  And I'll argue to death for that feature for the sake of equality.  But this...this is just stupid.  Yes, it would have been nice if BioWare would have allowed for gays and lesbians to partake in this very pathetic part of the role-playing experience.  I'm just wondering whose life is sad enough where it should honestly make a difference.  

Originally posted by P2PGamer

OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

kill...

eat other people...

sell drugs...

do exercisms..

rape...

run around naked...

but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

They CHOOSE not to put it in, its not hypocritical at all. If certain companies can actually get away with things they can put into their games then they will. However they still have to have their game inspected and meet a certain criteria.  

Originally posted by Creslin321

Just wanted to add that I don't think it's really fair to jump on Bioware for not including same sex relationships in SWTOR.

Of almost any game company out there, Bioware has made huge strides in terms of including the gay community in gaming.  How many other games include same sex romance options?  Not many, at least not any I can think of.

I feel like BW has always been a steadfast ally of the gay community and now you all are jumping on them because they aren't including a gay romance in ONE game.  A little unfair I think.  If they stop including gay relationships in EVERY game, then okay you can bash them.  But just one game?  Cut them some slack.  They really took a lot of risks with gay relationships in other games, especially in a time where there is a lot of bigotry against gay people in the US.

I don't particularly think Bioware is acting bigoted, but the issue is sure getting the support of a boat load of bigots. Intentionally or not and more than likely not, this issue has been like a banner for all the moronic vitrolic homophobia of the gaming community. 

Had Bioware given a reason for the exculsion of same-sex relationships in SWTOR, it might have helped their cause a little bit, there would of course have still been disappointment and even anger, but given their history with including homosexuality in their games, it appears to leave people questioning what exactly happened here. 

The bigger problem is that once they do question why they've been left out, they are getting attacked with such hatred. 

Originally posted by P2PGamer

OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

kill...

eat other people...

sell drugs...

do exercisms..

rape...

run around naked...

but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by Creslin321

Just wanted to add that I don't think it's really fair to jump on Bioware for not including same sex relationships in SWTOR.

Of almost any game company out there, Bioware has made huge strides in terms of including the gay community in gaming.  How many other games include same sex romance options?  Not many, at least not any I can think of.

I feel like BW has always been a steadfast ally of the gay community and now you all are jumping on them because they aren't including a gay romance in ONE game.  A little unfair I think.  If they stop including gay relationships in EVERY game, then okay you can bash them.  But just one game?  Cut them some slack.  They really took a lot of risks with gay relationships in other games, especially in a time where there is a lot of bigotry against gay people in the US.

I don't particularly think Bioware is acting bigoted, but the issue is sure getting the support of a boat load of bigots. Intentionally or not and more than likely not, this issue has been like a banner for all the moronic vitrolic homophobia of the gaming community. 

Had Bioware given a reason for the exculsion of same-sex relationships in SWTOR, it might have helped their cause a little bit, there would of course have still been disappointment and even anger, but given their history with including homosexuality in their games, it appears to leave people questioning what exactly happened here. 

The bigger problem is that once they do question why they've been left out, they are getting attacked with such hatred. 

I would agree with this.  

Originally posted by Wiezard

Originally posted by P2PGamer

OP, I hate to say it but you are correct.

It's sad they ignore same sex relationships in their games, yet they allow all the crap they do.

kill...

eat other people...

sell drugs...

do exercisms..

rape...

run around naked...

but oh noooooo, they draw the line at same sex relationships

Very hypocritical of the gaming companies especially when these games are suppose to be RPGs

If this was an MMO based on ME universe i am sure they would add same sex relationship. But since LA likes to control SW IP, how do you expect Bioware to add it into game? moreover considering there was hardly a mention of any prominent gay characters in Star Wars universe? when people think SW, gay couple is last thing they think about.

When I think SW, sex is the last thing I think about in general, yet they included it in heterosexual form.