Hopscotch73

If people are truly "loyal" followers of Bioware because they on so many occasions offered the freedom to have homosexual relations then I would think those same people should understand that there must be some fairly dynamic/important reason it isn't allowed here. 

What I find funny is that these in game romances are so lame it boggles the mind that people care and this is coming from someone who has played out every type of relationship possible in DA:O including having a male character date Zev and a female who dated Leliana.

Oh wow we get some stupid pg rated sex scene that more often than not ends up looking like something you turn your eyes away to avoid than actually watch what is happening due to the sheer embarassment of it all after that you can keep getting that same stupid cutscene but there is nothing else to it if TOR relationships are the same I'm having a hard time seeing why people care so much could those shallow elements really effect someones gameplay that much?

I've taken the liberty of cleaning the thread up to this point. Please keep any discussion of religion, politics, or any sort of hate related talk out of this thread. Follow the Rules of Conduct when posting.

Just a note :

Originally posted by Hopscotch73

And then you look at their next game, and lo and behold there's more - and they even stand up publically for your right to be represented in games (and thus, by extension validating you still more). And they keep on doing it - wouldn't you just love them? Wouldn't you look forward to their next game?

And then they're about to launch their biggest project ever.... and they've forgotten about you. Or maybe they're done with the whole validation thing and just don't want to come out and say that in public. You don't know because they won't say why. In fact, they're not engaging with your community at all despite a firestorm raging on the web.

 

Wouldn't that feel kinda like a kick in the teeth?

 

  I get what you're saying it's like when Pally's were overpowered, blizzard always said they're fine and working as intended.  I loved my Pally.  Patch after patch I would destroy everyone.  Then came Cata....  Man did that feel like a kick in the teeth being a Pally.  Where's the Pally support now?  long gone I guess or is it the fact that I expected the over powered Pally to be around for every expansion and patch.  My fault, oh well, I play a DK.

To be honest, I personally am not bothered by the omission, but I am kinda bummed out by the silence. I agree with you on the "romantic scenes" often being toe-curlingly awful, but I remember also thinking how awesome it was that David Gaider stood up to the people flaming SGRAs on the Dragon Age forums, and I thought then that if I'd had these games to play when I was a teenager I possibly wouldn't have felt so alone (I grew up in the sticks, and it was a very hard place to be different).

I don't need that kind of validation anymore, I'm an adult, I couldn't care less about people who judge me based on something as unimportant as  the gender of the people I'm attracted to. I just shrug and write 'em off.  I do, however, recognize that not everyone feels the same way I do, and I understand why they don't. I was in that place too a couple of decades back. No point in telling people they'll feel differently about it when they're older and have lived some more either, because that's not always the case.

That's why I made the comment about not being dramatic about it, I don't feel "betrayed" or anything, I'm just mildly bummed that they don't seem to feel the need to engage with  the people asking "why?".

A few points:

1. It was made quite clear a long time ago during development that there would not be any same sex relationships.  The "shit storm" is a bit late in brewing.

2. Saying that every game should offer same sex romance if it has opposite sex romance is a bit much.  Do we really need to go for quotas here?  Remember how movies used to have the stereotypical "black guy" so that the film could be said to showcase multiethnicities.  If we take the argument to hyperbole, why just have homosexual encounters when there are so many other sexual proliclivities to explore?  Where's the bondage?  Sadomaschism (oh sith, sorry)? or, most importantly, where's the wookie sex? (I know everybody wants to get their furries on)

3. I suppose the question that this comes down to is: are video games art or are they reflections of society?  Films and books don't need to offer equal opportunity gender romances.  We consider them entertainment.  Aren't video games entertainment venues?  Do you criticize an author for not having enough gay or lesbian characters in their books?  Are actors and actresses berate for not starring as homosexual characters?  Or is it that you honestly consider video games as some sort of LIFE 2.0 where you can explore various lifestyles in a virtual world?

As an aside, I will note that I usually play female toons in games where romance is an option.  My wife who is normally uncomfortable with me having NPC relations with a woman seems more comfortable with me playing a woman flirting with men.... go figure.

Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by Ozmodan

  Personally, if you have to have a sexual relationship of any sort in a game, you have greater issues than discussing this silly issue.

And anyone asking why this is inappropriate for kids probably should not be playing this game if you have trouble figuring that out. 

 

1.  Were not talking 'sexual relationship'.  Just a relationship.

2.  Relationships involving two people of the same gender are 100% appropriate for kids.  Its not like SWTOR would be their only exposure to it.  Get with the times is the appropriate phrase here.

It is always sexual if you consider it any sort of relationship, you need to get with the times.  I have some good friends that are gay, they also think all this uproar is ridiculous, it is a game, not a match pairing service.  Anyone getting upset over this needs to get out of their basement and experience life, it is most certainly NOT through a game over the net.

Really another one of these threads?

Just asking for trouble with this.

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Thats this site though.

Most people here are burned out on the themepark model. So they will take any excuse to bash the game that they can. I bet you most people don't give a rat's ass about the issue one way or the other. They are just using it to put their spin on SWTOR. Just like these last three articles are more about generating hype for the site than personally held beliefs.

It's also been said "There is no such thing as bad press." So while I think Bioware wishes they were talking more  about game mechanics, they are probably happy people are talking.

Wait a minute, as the OP noted, "I’d rather be worried about the unannounced “Legacy” end-game system, and the world PvP info we’ve yet to hear squat about"

so you're correct, it is EA/Bioware's fault after all since their Developer decided to discuss this same sex content issue with some folks rather than share more details on the above said topics which would be more interesting I'll grant you.

Stop being so defensive about discussions regarding SWTOR, the title doesn't need a defense attorney.

I never said it was Bioware's fault. I have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.

It's not their fault that people nitpick about every little detail. Bioware could release one of those game guides on the game and people would still complain. For alot of people it's the only thing they are good at.

The three articles that were released attacking SWTOR from this site were done for a reason. They knew they would garner attention to the articles and the site. All three articles were pretty weak with half -assed arguments.

For instance his irresponsible comment "This “news” created a virtual sh*t-storm on the internet, with LGBT and homophobes battling in a forum version of the Thunderdome." Which is in the same vein as Bushs famous "Your either with us or your with the terrorists." So if you have any other position besides the LBGT your a homophobe.

I don't blame them for going this route. The results speak for themselves. These are the most viewed and commented posts by the writers on the site. They are also some of the weakest articles that are easily picked apart. I think it's because the writer's knew this when they wrote the posts.

George Lucas has the final say on what story elements are allowed in the different franchises that use the Star Wars universe. He does not want any gay/lesbian relationships in the story, so if you want to get onto someone about this, get onto him. BioWare probabaly would've put it in had that not been the case.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by Ozmodan

  Personally, if you have to have a sexual relationship of any sort in a game, you have greater issues than discussing this silly issue.

And anyone asking why this is inappropriate for kids probably should not be playing this game if you have trouble figuring that out. 

 

1.  Were not talking 'sexual relationship'.  Just a relationship.

2.  Relationships involving two people of the same gender are 100% appropriate for kids.  Its not like SWTOR would be their only exposure to it.  Get with the times is the appropriate phrase here.

It is always sexual if you consider it any sort of relationship, you need to get with the times.  I have some good friends that are gay, they also think all this uproar is ridiculous, it is a game, not a match pairing service.  Anyone getting upset over this needs to get out of their basement and experience life, it is most certainly NOT through a game over the net.

 

a sexual relationship is people having sex

a relationship is just people interacting in a close manner.  Relationship usually end up involving sex, yes.  But there is a big difference between the two.

And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

 

The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

Bio already accepted the minorities in previous titles.  Just because they didn't implement it in their latest title doesn't mean they unaccept that minority group.  Lots of factors come into play.  It's a business that's there for profit maybe it wasn't worth it for them this time around?  They can spend all the money they have to please all the minority groups, in the end they have to answer to the stake holders why they didn't make any money.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by GMan3

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by SlothnChunk

I would leave out all sexuality. I can't name a single MMO where these relationships have added anything of value to the MMO.

Agreed.

Though I don't see a reason to exlude anyone from anything when its being offered as content... so it hardly seems fair that they are being excluding of the homosexual community, which makes up on average 1 out of every 10 people.  10% of the world population is more people than there are Native Americans, or Central Americans, or Middle Easterners.  To act like these groups mater and yet some how homosexuals don't is just simply outrageous.

Equality for everyone.

     Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

Well considering they bothered to do so in their past games, several times, and many people who are straight enjoy flirting with a male elf from time to time...  I dunno it just seems silly to be exclusive when honestly it wouldn't take much work to include such a thing, as they have proven before...

Ultimately I don't see a point in having sexually related content in a star wars game...

     I agree with your last part, I don't see a need for any kind of sexual innuendo in the game either except for maybe light flirting if a storyline calls for it, but that is where our agreement ends.

    Comparing this game to previous BioWare titles that did include a homosexual relationship is only appropriate is you do not compare the prices involved in creating them.  This game already costs over $100 million (USD) and you want to spend even more to make homosexual oriented story lines?  Then pay even more for the Voice Overs?  Then have to worry about how many parents would not let their children play the game after they found out?

     I could be wrong, but I see this feature loosing BioWare more money than it would gain them.

    Also, just because they do something once means they always have to do it?  Seriously?  If that were the case then BioWare NEVER would have had homosexual relationships in their games to begin with.  They didn't do it before after all, so they shouldn't be doing it now according to your logic.

Originally posted by marquisk2

And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

 

The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

Bio already accepted the minorities in previous titles.  Just because they didn't implement it in their latest title doesn't mean they unaccept that minority group.  Lots of factors come into play.  It's a business that's there for profit maybe it wasn't worth it for them this time around?  They can spend all the money they have to please all the minority groups, in the end they have to answer to the stake holders why they didn't make any money.

 

But it affects more than the minorities.  The prime reason for this thing to even be in the game is RP/immersion.  But it kind of defeats the purpose when it neithe rmirrors our society nor the society the game world is based in.  

The money is already being spent on the heterosexual angle.  It's not like it would take much development time to change around a few dialogue options.  Its not like they would have to make any new storylines, just allow two of the same sex to do what two of the opposite sex could do before.

The argument is if the relationship arcs are worth the money investment, not if a gay relationship arc is.  because the work is already being done.

The money is already being spent on the heterosexual angle.  It's not like it would take much development time to change around a few dialogue options.  Its not like they would have to make any new storylines, just allow two of the same sex to do what two of the opposite sex could do before.

 

The argument is if the relationship arcs are worth the money investment, not if a gay relationship arc is.  because the work is already being done.

 

Sure lets tack on another $100k here and there for adding more features...  Why not?  MMORPG's are a gauranteed success looking at the track record of how it's been going for the past couple years.  Every amount of money counts for a business even if it is a small amount.  It could still mean the difference of being in the red or not.  And to say that they already have the hetero angle so it shouldn't be that much more expensive to add additional is just an assumption.

Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by marquisk2

And you also don;t understand that everyone plays games differently.  Most people that would do such a thing would be doing it not as a match maker, but as a character immersion tool.  Or it could be people in a relationchip that think its fun to have a similar thing in game.

The people that get upset are more upset over the bigger picture, of our society's continued struggle to accept minorities (smaller % of people different from them, not the racial implications the term sometimes take)

Bio already accepted the minorities in previous titles.  Just because they didn't implement it in their latest title doesn't mean they unaccept that minority group.  Lots of factors come into play.  It's a business that's there for profit maybe it wasn't worth it for them this time around?  They can spend all the money they have to please all the minority groups, in the end they have to answer to the stake holders why they didn't make any money. 

But it affects more than the minorities.  The prime reason for this thing to even be in the game is RP/immersion.  But it kind of defeats the purpose when it neithe rmirrors our society nor the society the game world is based in.  

The money is already being spent on the heterosexual angle.  It's not like it would take much development time to change around a few dialogue options.  Its not like they would have to make any new storylines, just allow two of the same sex to do what two of the opposite sex could do before.

The argument is if the relationship arcs are worth the money investment, not if a gay relationship arc is.  because the work is already being done.

     I am no phsycologist, but even I know that your reasoning is flawed.  There are very distinct differences in how homosexuals approach relationships as compared to how heterosexuals do it.  There has even been some VERY extensive studies done on the subject.  So saying you can just change a few lines around is far too simplistic.  So at the very least the relationship arcs would have to be completely rewritten to accomodate this difference.

Originally posted by GMan3

     Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters?  I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs.  So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.

Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying :p

I'm with the taking sex out of the game side. In reallity if you leave it and allow same sex relationships with computer animated chars all you are going to get is children acting ignorant. Gay and lesbian people are offended because it has been brought up as an issue when really It should not be. I wont lie I tried to see how many different npc I could get to sleep with my dragon age char, and this mmo is being sold as a story based mmo. I really think it is better to go without this facet of a mmo though than to suffer the obvious stupidy children and grown children would create abusing an implementation of the feature. The games that bioware had same sex in in the passed were not MMO's.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by GMan3

     Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it.  Why bother creating something for such a small demographic?  It is a waste of money in the long run.  It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want.  Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?

 If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters?  I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs.  So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.

 Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying :p

     I never saw a male playing a female toon to be very perverted to be honest (though only lesbian sexual encounters could be I guess).  It actually makes sence.  How many straight men want to watch another man's but running around a computer screen for hours at a time?  You might find it interesting to know that the majority of female players play a male toon as well.  Does that make them perverts?

    That being said though, I don't see to many straight men (or women) complaining that they can't use their male (or even female) toons to have a homosexual relationship in this game.

Originally posted by GMan3

Originally posted by Vhaln

 If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters?  I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs.  So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.

 Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying :p

     I never saw a male playing a female toon to be very perverted to be honest (though only lesbian sexual encounters could be I guess).  It actually makes sence.  How many straight men want to watch another man's but running around a computer screen for hours at a time?  You might find it interesting to know that the majority of female players play a male toon as well.  Does that make them perverts?

    That being said though, I don't see to many straight men (or women) complaining that they can't use their male (or even female) toons to have a homosexual relationship in this game.

I think that's because it's not that big of a deal, compared to what its like for someone who really is gay, feeling like the devs are taking an anti-gay stance.  We may not be as likely to be upset over it, but I'm just talking about demographics, since you mentioned it.  Just in terms of how many people will actually be using the same-gender romance options, I think it might actually be quite a lot.

The horror.....the horror.