Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I wont play any game that has same sex marriage. I won't validate the  agenda of those developers who put it in their game. I have quit one game so far for this reason. ...and not started others.

Yeah that whole treating all people with respect, dignity and a modicum of equality is such an evil agenda... 

This whole article is based on the premise that it was Bioware's choice alone whether or not to include said relationships.  This is more than presumptuous.  While, yes, I'm sure in some novels there have been lgbt relationships, none of the novels, particularly those post RotJ, are considered cannon by Lucasfilm or Lucasarts.  They have stated this publicly in the past.  However, it seems that they do treat the games, and particularly KotoR, as soft cannon.  My guess is that Bioware's hands are tied by Lucasarts themselves and not by their own decision.  These are the things you have to deal with when you are using someone else's IP.

Why not let players "organically" find one another and create their own love relationships as they used to do back in the days of persistent worlds

I agree!  Bioware should just let Coruscant become the new Pornshire.  Just let people use their imaginations and build the virtual world how ever they want.  :p  Would that make the default ruleset FFA?

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I wont play any game that has same sex marriage. I won't validate the  agenda of those developers who put it in their game. I have quit one game so far for this reason. ...and not started others.

Leaving it in isnt having an agenda.  Taking it out is.

Again, this is the first MMO ive heard of that had a relationship or marraige system where gender mattered..

If it's not in the game, players are still free to use their imagination.

Hear, hear! I'm disappointed that Bioware took such a fundamental choice out of the game. I think it was a huge mistake for them to do it, and perhaps a sign of homophobia at LucasArts (think about it: EA = same sex relationships, Bioware = same sex relationships, Star Wars = NO same sex relationships.)

I feel my personal choices have been limited, and the personal choices of the entire MMORPG playing LGBT community, which I know is actually substantial.

I wish I could do something to change this bad, stupid, ignorant, and possibly bigoted decision. I'll sign a petition, I'll write letters to news outlets, I'll write letters to Bioware/EA/LucasArts, I'm even considering cancelling my CE pre-order.

lmao i hope this brings down.  the lucasarts universe.      bount time  that  1 demional  franchise  came to a halt.  Throwing stones in a glass house is always great entertainment  

Originally posted by misles

Mm.  How to start this?

Well, let's take a look at history a bit.  I played Knights of the Old Republic.  And in those games, yes, you had relationships, but they were man to woman.  And there wasn't such a screaming, that I knew of back then, from the LBGT people.  And Bioware gave you a choice to be involved in the relationship aspect or not.

Fast forward to today.  The voices from the LBGT group are loud and proud.  They make they're presence known, as they should, they are in fact a minority based on sexual orientation.  Bioware, in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, put in the same sex relationships as a valid choice, and why shouldn't they?  But the question begs to be asked.  And you may have pointed this out, Bill.  Dragon Age and Mass Effect are NOT Star Wars.  Star Wars is a name that's been around since 1979 (?) if not a bit before.   There may be a certain expectation there.  Dragon Age and Mass Effect have only been around for 5 years.  And in those 5 years (and again I should go back about 5-10 years further back but that's when ME and DA came out, about 5 years ago), LBGT relationships have become acceptable (Outside of the complete religious right wing nuts screaming foul at the top of their lungs, but that's a seperate debate for another forum) and no one said boo about that in those games.

It could be two things.  One, Bioware might be keeping to Star Wars so as to not break the trend they set in THAT GAME.  Or two, they are getting pressure from someone (LucasArts, government, special interest group), to keep the same sex out of the game.

There could be more.  But I want to keep my thoughts open ended.

So you are saying that Star Wars is a sad relic of an intolerant past? If that's the case, then Star Wars is ultimately doomed to be forgotten and mocked for being antiquated and no longer culturally relavent.

I'm willing to bet it is LucasArts that has the intolerance in this case.

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Spazkat

who cares about stupid relationships in a game....

i'll be playing a game & having fun not looking for a virtual date.

 

The answer to your question is one of the main reasons people are upset: BioWare. BioWare cares about "stupid relationships in a game," which is why they've been including them in all of their games since at least 2003. They've been including same-gender relationships in their games since 2005, with the possible exception of the Mass Effect series (which only had the female-female option).

 

BioWare still apparently considers romantic relationships to be important in their games, because they announced them for The Old Republic, but then they made a point of saying there would be no same-gender relationships at all for the first time in six years. Thusly, it comes across as: "We think this is an important feature, but not important enough to include it for everyone." That's why people are upset.

 

For those who are feeling excluded in this "romance" situation (whether male or female, gay or straight), it's the same thing as hearing: "We believe PvP is important to our game, which is why we've included it for all Caucasian avatars."  Now, just replace "PvP" with "Romance" and "Caucasian" with "Heterosexual," and you have the crux of the outrage. The forum arguments we've heard supporting BioWare's decision have so far been akin to  "I'm not a pvper, so I don't have a problem with this,"  "If you're not Caucasian and PvP is important to you, you can always roll a Caucasian alt," "PvP is optional, so you can skip it" and "Well, it costs more money to tint the avatar's skin." Obviously, if you have dark skin, none of these would be (or should be) particularly comforting arguments to you.

 

Now, if I put myself in the above situation, I'm not directly affected; I'm Caucasian and I hate PvP.  In the current situation, I'm still not affected: I love romance, but I'm heterosexual. Does that mean I shouldn't care? For me, the answer is "no." This smacks of discrimination to me, and I contacted Origin about my pre-order today to put my money where my mouth is. I suppose the question comes down to where you draw the line.  If you draw the line a little further back, that's your business, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the line doesn't exist. BioWare's previous efforts to erase said line (see: Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, and even Mass Effect 1 & 2) are why it's so shocking to be having this conversation about it now, and why it's so obvious that they've not only redrawn the line, but taken a step backwards across it.

Very well said

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

I don't like hearing "I'd rather just form a relationship with someone in reality."

Firstly... SW:TOR, like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, is a role playing experience. It involves killing, sexing, living and loving.  There seems to be such an insecurity behind saying... "I'd rather form relationships in reality." when you're talking about a video game.

Its a story... enjoy all aspects of role playing a character's fictional story....

"I'd rather murder people with a lightsaber in reality."

Yeah, this is such a cop-out in my opinion. It's a freaking role-playing game, I love the fact that NPCs will be far more than parts of the scenery in this game. If having relationships with NPCs adds dimensions to them and turns them into "characters" rather than articulated lumps, so be it! Bring it on!

Originally posted by pablorod

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Spazkat

who cares about stupid relationships in a game....

i'll be playing a game & having fun not looking for a virtual date.

 

The answer to your question is one of the main reasons people are upset: BioWare. BioWare cares about "stupid relationships in a game," which is why they've been including them in all of their games since at least 2003. They've been including same-gender relationships in their games since 2005, with the possible exception of the Mass Effect series (which only had the female-female option).

 

BioWare still apparently considers romantic relationships to be important in their games, because they announced them for The Old Republic, but then they made a point of saying there would be no same-gender relationships at all for the first time in six years. Thusly, it comes across as: "We think this is an important feature, but not important enough to include it for everyone." That's why people are upset.

 

For those who are feeling excluded in this "romance" situation (whether male or female, gay or straight), it's the same thing as hearing: "We believe PvP is important to our game, which is why we've included it for all Caucasian avatars."  Now, just replace "PvP" with "Romance" and "Caucasian" with "Heterosexual," and you have the crux of the outrage. The forum arguments we've heard supporting BioWare's decision have so far been akin to  "I'm not a pvper, so I don't have a problem with this,"  "If you're not Caucasian and PvP is important to you, you can always roll a Caucasian alt," "PvP is optional, so you can skip it" and "Well, it costs more money to tint the avatar's skin." Obviously, if you have dark skin, none of these would be (or should be) particularly comforting arguments to you.

 

Now, if I put myself in the above situation, I'm not directly affected; I'm Caucasian and I hate PvP.  In the current situation, I'm still not affected: I love romance, but I'm heterosexual. Does that mean I shouldn't care? For me, the answer is "no." This smacks of discrimination to me, and I contacted Origin about my pre-order today to put my money where my mouth is. I suppose the question comes down to where you draw the line.  If you draw the line a little further back, that's your business, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the line doesn't exist. BioWare's previous efforts to erase said line (see: Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, and even Mass Effect 1 & 2) are why it's so shocking to be having this conversation about it now, and why it's so obvious that they've not only redrawn the line, but taken a step backwards across it.

Very well said

Extremely very well said.

 Thank yopu Op for your politically correct article. It is of course MOST important that we handle this now as we all know MMO's never change once they start. If we don'y force same sex relationships now they of course will never be added at a later time.

  I also agree we should gut anything from the game thats not totally fair to all walks of life at game start. Yes lets remove all relationships in the game. Also I am a PVP'er and as we can not at game start attack anyone and everyone wherever and whenever we want we should also remove all PvP from the game. Come now you must admit that theres at least as many PvP'ers playing this game as gays why should pvp'ers be discriminated against.

  I thank the OP for opening my eyes as I am a Mormon and find the whole Jedi / sith religous sides lacking. It is most unfair that I can't play a Mormon knight / counsuler, is not religious freedom just as important as sexual freedom?  Due to the OP's rant I can see this game is not Political correct  and requires a large overhaul before launch so it will be fair to all in RL standards. Obviously if I can't play a Mormon knight then both the Jedi and sith religious class'es must be removed,

  In ending to the guy who posted that companions where fake, and that relationship should be between real people in game I have to laugh. As that hot female avatar he's been cyberiing with is in RL most likelty a 350 lb old fat guy. People on the internet are less real then the average reality show. Hahaha

The likely reason is that they wanted to avoid controversy for this particular game.

Remember that BioWare and EA did extensive surveys pertaining to almost everything in regards to TOR.

Yes they're caving in here, but that's still the result of the society we live in being a little bit less tolerant than we like to believe.

I don't understand the whole argument. Why should I spend my time in a MMORPG building a relationship with a NPC? No matter if same sex or not, it's plain stupid. If I want to roleplay I'll do it with other players.

And IMHO, if you NEED to have a relationship with pixels (homosexual or not), you have problems. A lot of.

It's so a useless feature that you should be able to have a relationship with your companion. They should remove the option.

I don't get this article at all, to be totally honest. Writing in the same-sex thing would have resulted in extra work and this same sex thing isn't exactly all hurrahs around the world. If they would have written them in, they would have eliminated entire countries from the subscriber pool...

I'm pretty sure you will have a hard time finding a copy of Dragon Age: Origins from certain parts of the world.

Where did they say that players cannot form relations like they used to? I don't think I've seen any MMO out there that let your "pixels" do the talking... You can and should still meet people to go on adventures with in the game, be it a raid or a whole other kind of a battleground. People are upset about a feature that hasn't been in any major commercially succesfull MMO. They are playing it safe. The headlines would be just as big if they did allow the same sex thing in the game, it would just lead to game bans from the Muslim world etc. They may not be as hard core MMO players as us westerners, but they still play and pay the same sub we do...

Correct me if I'm wrong, you can still form any sort of twisted love quadrupledouble relationship in the game with other players if you find willing partners. I don't think they told us that this was not an option...

Having pixels do it, is the problem -> Extra work and whole other bag of problems is the reason for this. They chose this bag and I don't care.

I'm a hetero man and have some lesbian/bi friends that are quite dear to me, so I don't judge anything. This is just a lot of noise about nothing... Just my honest opinion. Flame away!

Originally posted by Metsis

I don't get this article at all, to be totally honest. Writing in the same-sex thing would have resulted in extra work and this same sex thing isn't exactly all hurrahs around the world. If they would have written them in, they would have eliminated entire countries from the subscriber pool...

I'm pretty sure you will have a hard time finding a copy of Dragon Age: Origins from certain parts of the world.

Where did they say that players cannot form relations like they used to? I don't think I've seen any MMO out there that let your "pixels" do the talking... You can and should still meet people to go on adventures with in the game, be it a raid or a whole other kind of a battleground. People are upset about a feature that hasn't been in any major commercially succesfull MMO. They are playing it safe. The headlines would be just as big if they did allow the same sex thing in the game, it would just lead to game bans from the Muslim world etc. They may not be as hard core MMO players as us westerners, but they still play and pay the same sub we do...

Correct me if I'm wrong, you can still form any sort of twisted love quadrupledouble relationship in the game with other players if you find willing partners. I don't think they told us that this was not an option...

Having pixels do it, is the problem -> Extra work and whole other bag of problems is the reason for this. They chose this bag and I don't care.

I'm a hetero man and have some lesbian/bi friends that are quite dear to me, so I don't judge anything. This is just a lot of noise about nothing... Just my honest opinion. Flame away!

     +1.  Well said.

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

The likely reason is that they wanted to avoid controversy for this particular game.

Remember that BioWare and EA did extensive surveys pertaining to almost everything in regards to TOR.

Yes they're caving in here, but that's still the result of the society we live in being a little bit less tolerant than we like to believe.

 

They actually caused more controversy by limiting their system to opposite sex characters.

Homosexuality in games is very commonplace.  Its far bigger news that they are excluding it and going against the norm, as opposed to including it.

Super Mario Brothers 2 way back in the 80s had a male that thought he was a female (Birdo)

Most games with character options have gay options too.  Ultima games had it.  Final Fantasy games had it.  Fable.  Any Bioware game obviously.  Star Ocean.  list goes on and on

None of these games had any huge outcry.  The loudest uproar ive seen was over Runes of Magic, and that lasted about two days.

Originally posted by Xondar123

Originally posted by Verterdegete

This is getting really tiresome. Accept it, majority of people hate this stuff and don't want it in their game. If you want same sex relationships in SWTOR, roleplay it with someone.

Just so you know, here in Canada 70% of people agree with same sex marriage. I think it's actually a vocal, bigoted minority who "hate this stuff."

     Just wonder if that same 70% be ok if they were forced to participate in some way?  Even if that participation was only to say, "No thanks, I'm straight."  I remember reading an article once that showed that about 70% of the people in the US were fine with the issue as well, until it was made more personal.  For instance, when asked if people minded homosexuals attending the same gym they did, few people had any problems.  On the other hand, when told homosexuals would also be SHOWERING in the same facilities at the same time, the numbers almost completely switched.  It's funny how people are fine with the abstract idea, but when it gets personal things change.  Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by Corehaven

Originally posted by Kothoses

Given how cheaply and freely Bioware threw Bisexuality into Dragon Age, I am willing to bet the reason it isnt in ToR is more a Lucas Arts thing than a Bioware thing.....

Oh I doubt they will again after this.  Whether its Bioware Edmunton or Bioware Austin or whatever.  If I was in charge, I would be able to see that ever putting it in was a mistake.  Because there's now precident for this with past games, we're now required to do it with every game no matter what, and if we dont the fans go insane.  Its just not worth it.  Because of this outcry and how rediculous its been, dont expect to ever see homosexuality in Bioware game again.  In fact Id imagine the industry in general is taking notice of this.  Thats what the homosexual ranting has earned them.  And I say they deserve every bit of having it taken away from the industry entirely. 

 

I also agree its probably a Lucas Arts thing.  Absolutely.  Which goes back to my first point.  They've made games with homosexuality in them.  Unfortunately there will occasionally be the case that the owners of an IP dont agree with that and refuse to have it in their game, at which point the entire gay community gets in an uproar.  Solution?  Never include it again with any game ever. 

 

Good job folks.  By ranting and raving about it not being in TOR, its highly possible you may never see it again in any other game either.  Keep it up. 

A) Learn to spell "Edmonton" correctly. B) Bioware Edmonton is a Canadian company with Canadian enmployees based in Canada. In Canada same-sex marriage has been legal for many years now, a large percent of the population agrees with it, and they've been pretty consistant in including it in their past games up until now.

Bioware edmonton isn't going to take features out of games because a few bigots don't want them in.

Originally posted by Xondar123

Originally posted by Corehaven

Originally posted by Kothoses

Given how cheaply and freely Bioware threw Bisexuality into Dragon Age, I am willing to bet the reason it isnt in ToR is more a Lucas Arts thing than a Bioware thing.....

Oh I doubt they will again after this.  Whether its Bioware Edmunton or Bioware Austin or whatever.  If I was in charge, I would be able to see that ever putting it in was a mistake.  Because there's now precident for this with past games, we're now required to do it with every game no matter what, and if we dont the fans go insane.  Its just not worth it.  Because of this outcry and how rediculous its been, dont expect to ever see homosexuality in Bioware game again.  In fact Id imagine the industry in general is taking notice of this.  Thats what the homosexual ranting has earned them.  And I say they deserve every bit of having it taken away from the industry entirely.  

I also agree its probably a Lucas Arts thing.  Absolutely.  Which goes back to my first point.  They've made games with homosexuality in them.  Unfortunately there will occasionally be the case that the owners of an IP dont agree with that and refuse to have it in their game, at which point the entire gay community gets in an uproar.  Solution?  Never include it again with any game ever.  

Good job folks.  By ranting and raving about it not being in TOR, its highly possible you may never see it again in any other game either.  Keep it up. 

A) Learn to spell "Edmonton" correctly. B) Bioware Edmonton is a Canadian company with Canadian enmployees based in Canada. In Canada same-sex marriage has been legal for many years now, a large percent of the population agrees with it, and they've been pretty consistant in including it in their past games up until now.

Bioware edmonton isn't going to take features out of games because a few bigots don't want them in.

     Correct me if I am wrong, but it has only been in two BioWare games before that I can think of, maybe three.  Considering how many games BioWare has made, how exactly is it that they have "been pretty consistant in including it in their past games up until now."?

    Two or three out of the total BioWare games made does not make it a trend, it makes it an abnormality.

    Lastly, it really is tacky to correct people for minor spelling errors.