Originally posted by Kuinn

Pretty much everything in every game has been done in some way or another already, what's important is how well they are done, and are the features a good mix that works together.

/agree 100%

been playing online RP games since the old text muds, the only  changes I have seen in DIKU ( look it up kiddies) MMORPG's is the fluff features, the size, the graphics and how well the quests are written etc. EQ1 had 3D graphics and was a step up from text muds, WoW took away a lot of the pain of EQ1, LoTRO brought the well written storyline into the genre but in essence they all boil down to the same basic game play. Kill critters so your toon becomes more powerful so you can kill critters with more HP so you can become more powerful........ad infinitum

Just because my new Accura has a steering wheel, brake pedal and 4 round tires does not mean that it is the same as my old car I traded in on it. SWOTOR wil probably be my next game, whether it will be a long term love affair or a one night stand yet remains to be seen

I so laugh at thoser hanging around with a SWTOR signature.They are already in the star wars universe .

Originally posted by musicmann

Well, let's get down to the nuts and bolts of those that agree with the OP and those that are here for the sake of them bashing TOR once again with their GW2 tag in tow.  For me personally, TOR, while not not really inventing anything new, is bringing a lot of features to the genre that simply were light add on's in other game's. The biggest thing is the excellent, fully voiced system that simply in my opinion enhances the game a thousand fold. The other things mentioned in the OP. even though has been seen to a very light extent in other games have been improved and pushed so far ahead, thehy simply have taken on the perspective of innovation than just a rehashed and tired system that some games keep repeating over and over.

With that out of the way, these GW2 fans, need to only look at their precious and realize that the only thing that it brings to the table as far as something new, is the dodge system, and that's not really that new is it. You really can't say the underwater combat is new, or even expanded because anyone who has played WOW has definintly done their thing under water. The dynamic system is not really new nor is it gonna be that different than Rift or WAR's.

So really, if you want to put a head to head list of what TOR is doing and bringing to the table and what GW2 is doing, it is easy to see that both games are not innovating but pushing some core systems that have been around to a whole new level.

The way i see it, these games are like automobiles. Until i see one that can actually do things so different than what we see everyday, a car is just a car and every year they make improvements on them, but not really innovate to the point that it becomes something else.

 

I'm not here to bash or support one game over there other. I'm extremely excited for both TOR and GW2. But what you said is completely incorrect.

I'm not sure if you know how the underwater combat system works, but with World of Warcraft, it's literally just taking your character into the water with the same land based skills. 2D AoE effects look really stupid underwater, and operate even dumber. You can still freely swing hammers and swords underwater which is not plausible, logically. Of course, it's fantasy~ so no one really minds, all too much, firebolts sailing through the middle of the sea? Sure, they'll tolerate it but it's a really immersion breaker to a lot of people. Which is why there's not a whole lot of underwater content in World of Warcraft, that is, not until Cataclysym with Vashj'ir/Thousand Needles which at least showed the potential for cool underwater environments. Movement was really slow so they added the buff sea legs, and an underwater mount for certain areas only. But still, shoehorning land based combat underwater does not work. It's a lesser experience entirely.

With Guild Wars 2, the developers went to a lot of extent to make underwater combat not only a different experience, but an enjoyable one. A nice change of pace from the normal system. While underwater, you'll never encounter a breath meter until you're in your "drowned" state. Everyone's automatically equipped with an aqua-breather. Your ENTIRE skillbar changes to accomadate skills that not only make sense underwater, but are FUN underwater. Skills that make full use of a 3 dimensional environment. It wouldn't make sense if those Guardian symbols you normally casted on the ground as AoE were floating in the middle of the water, flat. So they get columns and spheres of AoE effects. You can use skills that will snare your foe by forcing them to rise to the surface, or dragging them down into the depths. Example: Elementalist traps enemy in a bubble and they begin to rise. Necromancer ties a tombstone to their ankle, causing them to sink. The weapons you get make sense, tridents, harpoon guns, and spears, and they're weapons you don't get to use above water. Rangers can have purely aquatic pets. Yes, Rangers can have shark pets! Even ENEMY attacks and movement change from land to underwater if they're amphibious. Skills are designed to generally be fun to use too, like Engineers can place sea mines around them or shoot large fish nets to snare foes and Elementalists, instead of casting fire bolts, can boil entire areas of water and burn their foes that way. And a LARGE amount of content for Guild Wars 2 is underwater. Not just one zone, but throughout the game there's large amounts of content underwater that isn't just for "some quests". There's races, and cities underwater that can even be pertinent to your character's personal storyline. There's dynamic events and world bosses underwater. I mean, it's hardly comparable to WoW or any other game that I'm aware of. Many, many leagues beyond them, too.

I'm not sure how you can even say that and expect people to take you seriously

I could also comment on how you dumbed down dynamic events, associating them with Rift and WAR though GW2 can be easily discerned as being in a different league entirely but this post is long enough. It also makes you look like a troll to discredit one of the larger features of GW2 the way you did.

Originally posted by Serelisk

Originally posted by musicmann

Well, let's get down to the nuts and bolts of those that agree with the OP and those that are here for the sake of them bashing TOR once again with their GW2 tag in tow.  For me personally, TOR, while not not really inventing anything new, is bringing a lot of features to the genre that simply were light add on's in other game's. The biggest thing is the excellent, fully voiced system that simply in my opinion enhances the game a thousand fold. The other things mentioned in the OP. even though has been seen to a very light extent in other games have been improved and pushed so far ahead, thehy simply have taken on the perspective of innovation than just a rehashed and tired system that some games keep repeating over and over.

With that out of the way, these GW2 fans, need to only look at their precious and realize that the only thing that it brings to the table as far as something new, is the dodge system, and that's not really that new is it. You really can't say the underwater combat is new, or even expanded because anyone who has played WOW has definintly done their thing under water. The dynamic system is not really new nor is it gonna be that different than Rift or WAR's.

So really, if you want to put a head to head list of what TOR is doing and bringing to the table and what GW2 is doing, it is easy to see that both games are not innovating but pushing some core systems that have been around to a whole new level.

The way i see it, these games are like automobiles. Until i see one that can actually do things so different than what we see everyday, a car is just a car and every year they make improvements on them, but not really innovate to the point that it becomes something else.

 

I'm not here to bash or support one game over there other. I'm extremely excited for both TOR and GW2. But what you said is completely incorrect.

I'm not sure if you know how the underwater combat system works, but with World of Warcraft, it's literally just taking your character into the water with the same land based skills. 2D AoE effects look really stupid underwater, and operate even dumber. You can still freely swing hammers and swords underwater which is not plausible, logically. Of course, it's fantasy~ so no one really minds, all too much, firebolts sailing through the middle of the sea? Sure, they'll tolerate it but it's a really immersion breaker to a lot of people. Which is why there's not a whole lot of underwater content in World of Warcraft, that is, not until Cataclysym with Vashj'ir/Thousand Needles which at least showed the potential for cool underwater environments. Movement was really slow so they added the buff sea legs, and an underwater mount for certain areas only. But still, shoehorning land based combat underwater does not work. It's a lesser experience entirely.

With Guild Wars 2, the developers went to a lot of extent to make underwater combat not only a different experience, but an enjoyable one. A nice change of pace from the normal system. While underwater, you'll never encounter a breath meter until you're in your "drowned" state. Everyone's automatically equipped with an aqua-breather. Your ENTIRE skillbar changes to accomadate skills that not only make sense underwater, but are FUN underwater. Skills that make full use of a 3 dimensional environment. It wouldn't make sense if those Guardian symbols you normally casted on the ground as AoE were floating in the middle of the water, flat. So they get columns and spheres of AoE effects. You can use skills that will snare your foe by forcing them to rise to the surface, or dragging them down into the depths. Example: Elementalist traps enemy in a bubble and they begin to rise. Necromancer ties a tombstone to their ankle, causing them to sink. The weapons you get make sense, tridents, harpoon guns, and spears, and they're weapons you don't get to use above water. Rangers can have purely aquatic pets. Yes, Rangers can have shark pets! Even ENEMY attacks and movement change from land to underwater if they're amphibious. Skills are designed to generally be fun to use too, like Engineers can place sea mines around them or shoot large fish nets to snare foes and Elementalists, instead of casting fire bolts, can boil entire areas of water and burn their foes that way. And a LARGE amount of content for Guild Wars 2 is underwater. Not just one zone, but throughout the game there's large amounts of content underwater that isn't just for "some quests". There's races, and cities underwater that can even be pertinent to your character's personal storyline. There's dynamic events and world bosses underwater. I mean, it's hardly comparable to WoW or any other game that I'm aware of. Many, many leagues beyond them, too.

I'm not sure how you can even say that and expect people to take you seriously

 

I could also comment on how you dumbed down dynamic events, associating them with Rift and WAR though GW2 can be easily discerned as being in a different league entirely but this post is long enough. It also makes you look like a troll to discredit one of the larger features of GW2 the way you did.

Exactly thay have improved somethinng that others have done before exactly as people say about the things Tor have done, cant understand why you cant imagen people would do the same comparison with Gw 2 the game you seem to prefer

Originally posted by Lokberg

 

Exactly thay have improved somethinng that others have done before exactly as people say about the things Tor have done, cant understand why you cant imagen people would do the same comparison with Gw 2 the game you seem to prefer

The point he is making is that after a certain point when you change something so much it ceases to be similar to what you started with an instead becomes new. And with underwater combat in GW2 I can assure you it is indeed new.

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Kuinn

Pretty much everything in every game has been done in some way or another already, what's important is how well they are done, and are the features a good mix that works together.

/agree 100%

been playing online RP games since the old text muds, the only  changes I have seen in DIKU ( look it up kiddies) MMORPG's is the fluff features, the size, the graphics and how well the quests are written etc. EQ1 had 3D graphics and was a step up from text muds, WoW took away a lot of the pain of EQ1, LoTRO brought the well written storyline into the genre but in essence they all boil down to the same basic game play. Kill critters so your toon becomes more powerful so you can kill critters with more HP so you can become more powerful........ad infinitum

Just because my new Accura has a steering wheel, brake pedal and 4 round tires does not mean that it is the same as my old car I traded in on it. SWOTOR wil probably be my next game, whether it will be a long term love affair or a one night stand yet remains to be seen

Yeah, the immunity bar affecting all forms of CC is of far more interest to me than going SCUBA driving in a MMO. The person that listed this as not being important must not be a competitive pvp player. I agree with LoTRO having a very well done storyline. SWToR will be interesting when the game opens. 

Originally posted by Zezda

Originally posted by whilan

 

Combat: The big one,mind as well start here. 

Duck and cover: yes two classes get this but it's still a new way to do combat.  How it works is that you select an enemy then hit the duck and cover button to roll behind cover. While you are behind cover (provided the cover is high enough) the enemy will basically hit the cover instead of you causing you to take no damage. But if you come out of cover to say...take a shot at the enemy, you are at risk of getting hit yourself. This provides a different way of combat from the straight up tank, the blasting of a mage or the use of invis to get behind the target. Think cops and robbers type thing.

Been done in lots of other MMO's which uses an arguably better system via line of sight mechanics. Mostly things like darkfall and such but also others. Even CORPG's like GW1 have had a feature like this - labeling it duck or cover doesn't make it much different, let alone the fact it's only for 2 classes.

If by this you mean just breaking line of sight, it's not quite the same thing, as moving behind a barrier then out to fire a spell is just breaking line of sight, yes the mechanic is the same but then you don't get any bonuses for being behind cover, you can't knock someone else out of cover unless theres a spell to push them back. I will look further into this to see if it stays on the list, for now i've not seen anything that looks like this duck and cover system. Mayhaps a link that shows this is a standard?

CC immunity bar

If you continue to get hit by CCs either by other players or NPCs you will become immune which is different from other games where the CC immunity is more basd on stats and if you are not skilled in resisting the stat that the enemy is using there is a good chance (especially with players) that you can be locked down becoming completely ineffective.

Many MMO's include a system to reduce the timer on CC's eventually leading to immunity. WoW does it, for example.

hmm i don't know this doesn't really reduce the timer on CCs this just makes you immune for a short time if you get hit too many times with a CC. Mayhaps a link i tried to look up WoW/crowd control and i got sent to a link of a poster asking why his class doesn't get CCs, and another saying because you hit like a tank thats why. 

Heavy use of pets

Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

Cant think of any ither MMO's off the top of my head which let pets go into this complexity but unless it is done well it could be just adding needless complexion (Like GW1 or Rift's skill systems). Gonna have to play the game to get a better idea on this one I think.

Done well or not is not the point of this list. This list is just a set of features being done differently enough to what is standard in MMOs, the standard for pets is simply an attack defend or kill button with 3 modes of aggressive defensive or passive. Will stay on the list.

Lets move on to crafting

Companions are involved in crafting. Their abilities tell who is better at crafting certain items better then others thus providing a bit more complexity to crafting then normal. Most games have the character actually crafting. Some are more complex but in most cases the game requires you to gather mats, the blueprint then hit craft and voila you have the mats. Rarer is when their is a timer on said item allowing for a more realistic crafting time as it takes time to put things together.

Timer

This is a differnet way to go about crafting, it's been done before but not often enough to feel stale or done to death so it sort of fits.  Crafting takes time (as i outlined above) to do. If you gather the mats and the blueprints. When you hit craft you have a timer until the item is complete. THe player doesn't really have any control over the item but it's a middle road between player control and just hitting the craft button and getting the item. Think Fallen earth here.

These aspects of the crafting have been done before and it is very much upto the game on wether or not it turns out better or worse than 'standard'. Going to be another wait and see thing.

I've seen this type of crafting with the timer done in i think it was Fallen earth and EvE, needless to say i've not been around the block with MMOs but most MMOs i've seen you take the mats, the schematic/plans whatever tells the person how to craft and click combine and your done.  That is what i see as the standard, where the timer is the non-standard to MMOs. Maybe i'm mistting a whole slew of games that does this form of crafting. I'll hold out on removing this list until i see a few more games doing this feature.

Crits

While not completely new, it's different from most MMOs i've seen where you either get the item or you don't. Here appearntly you can get a better version of the weapon. (this one is debatable on the list, so far 3 MMOs have been listed)

Crits have been done in quite a few games, including Aion. For the most part it is nothing but frustrating because the non-crit version of items are vastly inferior and vastly cheaper than the crit items.

Okay Aion has it, got more?

Lets move on to character customization, this one i'm going to have to split into parts because theres a good bit here.

Light and dark allignment

Your allignment has a few effects on character customization. Note this is as far as i know purely cosmetic so it doesn't change how well your character does.

Light/dark allignment changes your skills: this gives your character a more defined look as your skills change as you slide up and down the allignment changes.

Armor dependant on your alignment: some armor is dependant on your allignment, such as some armor requires a certain ranking of light/dark to equip

Your face for force users changes based on your allignment allowing for a different look for your charcther if your really dark sided your face distorts and looks...well evil.

NPCs react to your dark and light allignment

Some dialog options close off based on your allignment

I can't think of another MMO that has matched TOR in this respect but we do all need to admit this sort of interaction has been standard affair for RPG games for a few years now. So while it may be new to MMO's it certainly isn't new for Bioware. It does fit the setting well though as it's one of those things that wouldn't work in every game (See it wouldn't work very well in GW2 for example since there isn't a good vs evil thing going on)

We are talking MMOs here hence done different from standard MMOs, I'm full aware that this is a Bioware norm. But Bioware hasn't made many MMOs have they? :P Opinoins are nice, doesn't remove it from the list (not that you were trying to here) of norms for MMos

Equipment customization.

Equipment is based more solely on what mods you have in your weapon and armor rather then the equipment itself, equipment more solely bases on how many mods are allowed in said equipment that will then depict your stats from there.

The mods you have in your weapon/armor depict your weapons sound and color (ala lightsaber colors or blaster fire)

These two basically (assuming you can take mods in and out at will) allow for you to make any weapon you want provided you have the original, even take a low level weapon and armor such as if you like the brown robe from level 1, you could improve it to the stat where you can use that same brown robe for end-game.

This has been done to varying degrees in many MMO's, one of the more successful and recent being Aion. In Aion a large portion of your stats and such came from manastones and people often carried multiple sets of gear slotted with different sets of stones for different situations.

Okay Aion again. any more games?

Questing

This is probably the biggest change and departure and where all the focus/innovation is coming in.

Voice over, as much as people might like to try and deny or say it's a passing phase theres a differnece between just text and voice acting.  Most games have some voice acting and some not, but no game has the level of voice acting this game does.  Thus it's a very big depature on how they do quests.

Interaction with npcs, such as talking back and forth with them, even being able to hit them.

Choices in quests allowing you to take different versions of the quest which result in different experiences when you play out the quest, and even different rewards. Most MMOs have you simply doing a quest for said reward, however here what you do in the actual quest when taking progressing and turning in change how the quest ends and what rewards you get.

Pursasion is an optino in questing, allowing you to attempt to get the upper hand by using a stat you invested in to get better rewards that might not be available to one who doesn't.

multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

This is TOR's big seeling point, it's good. But after you go through that wonderful cut-scene and get the same quest objective as 5 other people who are doing the same thing it kills the immersion a bit. I can still appreciate it but we have been getting this sort of stuff out of single player games for over a decade (Planescape: Torment was wonderful for these sorts of dialogue choices). We will need to see how this works for the game as a whole.

While i wont discuss same objectives as this tends to happen in MMOs and Planescape torment is not an MMO i will say that doesn't change the fact that Multiplayer dialog isn't a standard in MMOs.

Hologram system

This allows you to not only turn in quests remotely but allows you to join in others peoples quest even if your not close but are still on the same planet. Far as i know the way this is implemented with being able to make decisions in others peoples quests without having to actually be there hasn't been done before.

A similar system is employed in WoW to share and hand in quests.

So in WoW you can employ a device to interact in someones elses quest? I'll try and find it myself where you can jump into someones elses quest, see what they are doing see how their quest is playing out while you are not next to them, but a link would help a lot.

Companions

Being able to influence your companion from light to dark or dark to light

Influences your crafting abilities.

Getting quests from your companions if you talk to them enough.

Companions are able to go from loving you to betraying you even to crying in your ship if you are a total jerk to them.

 Another single player staple put into the MMO. Going to have to wait and see on this one as well I think.

Done differently to the standard MMo...doesn't remove it from the list.

Dungeons (aka flashpoints)

Changing dungeons based on choices in the dungeons

Players can get access to alternate paths and different bosses if they of the right class

Different loot at the end of flashpoints based on the decisions made in the flashpoint

 I don't see the point in making things class based but this is one of the few things that hasn't really been done well yet in a MMO. Of course GW2 is going to have their dynamic events inside dungeons but for now I can't think of another MMO that does it.

Thanks, stays on the list

PvP

As mentioned above there is a CC immunity bar that everyone must be aware of and it's visable which gives for a more tatic route. Also this keeps players from being stun locked by another class merely because they lack the resistance to overcome said CC.

Warriors and healers can actually preform the desired role they want in PvP they did in PvE as they get rewarded for doing said role.

Warrior taunt works in PvP by making it undesirable for people to attack others besides the tank as their damage is severaly reduced.

Warhammer had a wonderful tank system with taunts and skills to help them be the focus of attention and so have other games. Having recieved damage and healing dealt counted is in quite a few games from what I understand and affects things like your ranking in a PQ in WAR, for example.

War okay..any other MMOs

 

Exploration

Exploration in this game give you several rewards including,

Datacrons (which give permanent stat boosts): This isn't normal as i think only one other game did this and it was more of a grind thing where as these are more of a reward for exploration

options for dialog with your companions: Again this is tied in with the companion but getting to certain exploration areas can give you new oppertunities for dialog with your npcs as they comment on the areas

codex entries: Your lore background

The exploration thing I don't see as a good feature at all. First thing PvP'ers will want to do is go explore to min/max their stats.

Don't really understand how this makes it a standard for MMOs, do a lot of MMOs (not games mind you, just MMos) employ the datacron system in the way this game does, cause i played a few MMOs and exploration might have given you a rare boss with different loot and maybe some experience but beyond say SWG i don't recall exploring giving you stat boost items.

Codex is in quite a few games but the dialogue for companions isn't really in any other MMO. It's another one of those things we have had in single player for a long time.

Quite a few games, those MMOs or single player games? cause there is a difference when it comes to this thread. So those stay for now.

 

Misc

We finally get to the misc category which is basically everything i didn't feel fit into th other categories or wasn't enough to warrent a whole new category

Codex entries: This is where you get all your lore from anytime you run into some you can easily look back at this codex to get a refresher, this can include anything from a temple to a boss to companions or items which tend to be quite descriptive.

Codex entries are in a few games and it's a really nice feature, it should be done in every game imo.

Gathering  you mean MMOs care to list a few?

No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

That's phasing, it's being used in quite a few games now instead of having load screens and server transitions.

Most games i've seen like Champions online, and lord of the rings require you to go through a door which requires a short load time, you can't seemlessly move in and out of it at will. You need to load each time. Still i'll hold on wether it's a standard, I've not seen how WoW does it, but it's different to how Lotro does it.

Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

That's another one of these things taken from single player games and I've seen a few cases now where people take damage from attacks while the animation shows swords clashing etc, It's cool but we will need to see how it stands upto the test in PvP and such like.

Thanks for the opinion doesn't remove it from the list though

 

Thanks for the effort compiling the list - My replies are in red, it's a good list but I think either TOR will do well or bad depending on the quality of all these 'Yeah it's been done before in game x and y'. If it feels samey then people will get bored and stop, if they changed it up enough to keep people interested then it will help retain people longer.

There's lot of stuff in there ported from single player games and to be honest most of it is going to have to be played a lot to see if it fits within the MMO style. I know personally that if I have done a quest in ME or DA before I skip all the talking as quickly as I can so I can just get on with it. So depending on how many quests branch across to other classes will determine how quickly the voice overs get old and people start skiping them.

There's tons of potential in the game but even if it is executed to perfection I still wouldn't feel like it would be a safe bet that I would be playing it for years to come. Of course everyone's mileage may vary but with the sort of titles queing up for release now sticking with the traditional MMO could be risky in the long term.

I'm thankful for your opinon on these things and i'm going to look further into these features to see if they are standards for MMO. The big thing to remember in this thread is it's not saying done differently to all games, or that it's not a feature we see commonly in single player games. It's a list of things we don't normally see (different from the standard) in MMOs. Thats the big thing to keep in mind.

Are these features things we normally see in MMOs or are they done differentily or new enough to be set out on their own. Such things that would fall into the normally seen in MMos. Trinity, click to move/wasd movement, quests/rewards, levels, spells/ability bar, maps, Monsters dropping loot, NPCs, mobs, autoattack and things of that nature. Things that you can point out and say, yeah thats pretty much standard to MMOs.

One or two games, even big ones does not make it a standard to MMOs, Saying things like Aion did it, remove it from the list won't remove it (not the the poster i'm quoting is saying remove it from the list). It's not a list of items that have never been done before in anyway. These are things that are done in a different way or haven't been done enough to become a standard to MMOs.

One example of how it does it differently is you might be able to share a quest in another game but that gives you the quest as well (assuming you are able) that means now you and him have the same quest and  you both can kill the same mobs and get credit for it. But at the end of the day it's the same as if you  had taken the quest from the NPC yourself, you just cut him out. Whereas here using the hologram system does not give you the quest, it just adds you and your responses to that other person quest playout, You still have to do the quest yourself and the outcomes of his quest does not reflect your own.

The turn in part is debatable and i'll put it under my list of things to look into wether that particular part stays on the list.

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

Originally posted by taus01

Originally posted by whilan

This isn't an innovation llist, this is just a list of things that are done differently then the standard MMO, colored this red for notice as people are confusing different from standard MMOs from innovation.

 

Just let it go. There is really nothing new and exciting in TOR except more "ear candy" with full voice overs. Hardly an achievment at all. Even the graphics are by today's standard at least 3 generations old, barely better than WoW.

Everything you list has been done in one way or the other already. Fully customizable companions with their own level/abilities, personality and equipment has been done in FF11 around 5 years ago, much better than what i read for TOR. Timed Crafting is as old as the MMO genre and your equipment customization has been done even in crappy Asian/Korean grinders a million times.

Please, just let it go and take the game for what it is. A standard Themepark MMORPG with full voice overs. This is good enough for me to give it a try.

Stop making it sound like TOR is the big "I am so different" MMO out there.

Face the facts and enjoy the game.

FFXI companions were limited in function. Did they help you with crafting? nope. Did they offer you quests? nope. Like i said before everything has been done  in some way or the other. All new MMOS are improving on the existing features and that is also known as innovation. So yeah please let it go considering OP wasn't talking about some sort of revolution but doing things differently.

Aas i said, there is no need to argue since there is nothing really drastically different in TOR. It's a solid, casual themepark MMO with voice overs, but since you replied:

Limited how? They are actually more complex than the ones in TOR (sans the excuse for a real crafting system by pretending your companions craft for you).

FFXI companions have their own quests, plenty of them. They can be completely customized and they level up and learn abilities. It's a full "mini expansion" that could keep you busy for 50 hours or more just to finish all quests, equipment unlocks, AI options and reaching max level. Thats already half of the "supposed playtime" of TOR.

*They add more to it almost every 3 months on the major updates.

Originally posted by taus01

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

Originally posted by taus01

Originally posted by whilan

This isn't an innovation llist, this is just a list of things that are done differently then the standard MMO, colored this red for notice as people are confusing different from standard MMOs from innovation.

 

Just let it go. There is really nothing new and exciting in TOR except more "ear candy" with full voice overs. Hardly an achievment at all. Even the graphics are by today's standard at least 3 generations old, barely better than WoW.

Everything you list has been done in one way or the other already. Fully customizable companions with their own level/abilities, personality and equipment has been done in FF11 around 5 years ago, much better than what i read for TOR. Timed Crafting is as old as the MMO genre and your equipment customization has been done even in crappy Asian/Korean grinders a million times.

Please, just let it go and take the game for what it is. A standard Themepark MMORPG with full voice overs. This is good enough for me to give it a try.

Stop making it sound like TOR is the big "I am so different" MMO out there.

Face the facts and enjoy the game.

FFXI companions were limited in function. Did they help you with crafting? nope. Did they offer you quests? nope. Like i said before everything has been done  in some way or the other. All new MMOS are improving on the existing features and that is also known as innovation. So yeah please let it go considering OP wasn't talking about some sort of revolution but doing things differently.

Aas i said, there is no need to argue since there is nothing really drastically different in TOR. It's a solid, casual themepark MMO with voice overs, but since you replied:

Limited how? They are actually more complex than the ones in TOR (sans the excuse for a real crafting system by pretending your companions craft for you).

FFXI companions have their own quests, plenty of them. They can be completely customized and they level up and learn abilities. It's a full "mini expansion" that could keep you busy for 50 hours or more just to finish all quests, equipment unlocks, AI options and reaching max level. Thats already half of the "supposed playtime" of TOR.

*They add more to it almost every 3 months on the major updates.

Thanks for confirming to what  i was trying to say. TOR took the FFXI companion feature and improved on it and added more features to it. Just like GW2 took the underwater combat and made it even more interesting. That is the whole purpose of this topic. So i have no idea why you keep trying to tell us that FFXI pet system was better. Your likes or dislikes are subjective but you can not deny the new features and improvements made by SWTOR to an already existing pet system.

Pets in Swtor influence your crafting, they offer you quest, they can betray you if you are not nice to them, you can influence your companions in switching sides, new dialog options as you explore new areas with your companions. So yeah plenty of new things for MMO pet system. Now if you are too stubborn to see it, that is your problem not mine.

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

Originally posted by taus01

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

FFXI companions were limited in function. Did they help you with crafting? nope. Did they offer you quests? nope. Like i said before everything has been done  in some way or the other. All new MMOS are improving on the existing features and that is also known as innovation. So yeah please let it go considering OP wasn't talking about some sort of revolution but doing things differently.

Aas i said, there is no need to argue since there is nothing really drastically different in TOR. It's a solid, casual themepark MMO with voice overs, but since you replied:

Limited how? They are actually more complex than the ones in TOR (sans the excuse for a real crafting system by pretending your companions craft for you).

FFXI companions have their own quests, plenty of them. They can be completely customized and they level up and learn abilities. It's a full "mini expansion" that could keep you busy for 50 hours or more just to finish all quests, equipment unlocks, AI options and reaching max level. Thats already half of the "supposed playtime" of TOR.

*They add more to it almost every 3 months on the major updates.

Thanks for confirming to what  i was trying to say. TOR took the FFXI companion feature and improved on it and added more features to it. Just like GW2 took the underwater combat and made it even more interesting. That is the whole purpose of this topic. So i have no idea why you keep trying to tell us that FFXI pet system was better. Your likes or dislikes are subjective but you can not deny the new features and improvements made by SWTOR to an already existing pet system. 

Enlighten me as to the features TOR adds and how my post confirmed anything?

Also, what is this already existing pet system you talk about? Companions are completely different to the Pet system in FFXI. I guess TOR is a step backwards then. You can have a pet and a companion (given you leveld a pet job and set it as main or sub)

Wait, nevermind. You just keep riding the TOR hype wave, i will see what it is like once it is released and decide if it's worth my money.

Originally posted by taus01

Enlighten me as to the features TOR adds and how my post confirmed anything?

Also, what is this already existing pet system you talk about? Companions are completely different to the Pet system in FFXI. I guess TOR is a step backwards then. You can have a pet and a companion (given you leveld a pet job and set it as main or sub)

Wait, nevermind. You just keep riding the TOR hype wave, i will see what it is like once it is released and decide if it's worth my money.

I just edited my post but i will repeat it again.

Pets in Swtor influence your crafting, they offer you quest, they can betray you if you are not nice to them, you can influence your companions in switching sides, new dialog options as you explore new areas with your companions. So all that on top of already existing pet feature.

Also if companions are really different from Pet system in FFXI why even make a comparison in first place? and yes please do that. Wait for realase before you start making un necessary comments.

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

TOR took the FFXI companion feature and improved on it and added more features to it...Your likes or dislikes are subjective but you can not deny the new features and improvements made by SWTOR to an already existing pet system. 

Didn't they just take their companion feature from their already established KOTOR series and just expand it to fit the MMO experience? Haven't heard that TOR took FFXI's companion feature (which I know nothing of) into question before, and Bioware has done quite well in their companions for over 10 years now.

Originally posted by eluldor

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

TOR took the FFXI companion feature and improved on it and added more features to it...Your likes or dislikes are subjective but you can not deny the new features and improvements made by SWTOR to an already existing pet system. 

Didn't they just take their companion feature from their already established KOTOR series and just expand it to fit the MMO experience? Haven't heard that TOR took FFXI's companion feature (which I know nothing of) into question before, and Bioware has done quite well in their companions for over 10 years now.

I am just trying to indulge him. Even if we say TOR took pet system from FFXI, (even though their companion system is extension of KOTOR), one can not deny the improvements and new features added by Bioware. But since there is always a game or MMO which has done it before, someone is bound to barge in with teeth grinding and tell you 'nothing special it has been done before'.

I don't really see SWTOR as "doing things differently", as I do "bringing things together".  All that you've mentioned has been done before (except fully voiced, which I can't wait to experience), but they're bringing all these things together, which, IMHO, I believe will be their key to success.

P.S. Simpsons did it!

Originally posted by Kuinn

 Finally we get a change of scenery and feel!

If anything this is a major selling point that SW:TOR has going for it.  The world of Star Wars is well defined and there's plenty of variety to break the same-old same-old feeling of starting a new fantasy RPG.

Originally posted by whilan

Okay I see the comment a lot, and i don't mean just here. But i see it a lot that people will state that the game isn't doing anything differently from the standard MMO, and i'm going to try and make a list of everything the game is doing differently so people can see as it may not be entirely apparent at first sight. Note this isn't about innovation so just becuase a feature i'm listing is in some remote MMO doesn't mean it doesn't belong on this list. Note things like auto attack and fast cooldowns don't meet this list because quite a few MMOs do this.

I"m going to split this up in sections.

Combat: The big one,mind as well start here. 

Duck and cover: yes two classes get this but it's still a new way to do combat.  How it works is that you select an enemy then hit the duck and cover button to roll behind cover. While you are behind cover (provided the cover is high enough) the enemy will basically hit the cover instead of you causing you to take no damage. But if you come out of cover to say...take a shot at the enemy, you are at risk of getting hit yourself. This provides a different way of combat from the straight up tank, the blasting of a mage or the use of invis to get behind the target. Think cops and robbers type thing.

CC immunity bar

If you continue to get hit by CCs either by other players or NPCs you will become immune which is different from other games where the CC immunity is more basd on stats and if you are not skilled in resisting the stat that the enemy is using there is a good chance (especially with players) that you can be locked down becoming completely ineffective.

Heavy use of pets

Most MMos tend to have one or two pet classes here everyone is, and they are highly customizable from anywhere from looks to AI control to types to being able to equip them to the same complexity as your main character. Thus spliting your character into two seperate parts.

Lets move on to crafting

Companions are involved in crafting. Their abilities tell who is better at crafting certain items better then others thus providing a bit more complexity to crafting then normal. Most games have the character actually crafting. Some are more complex but in most cases the game requires you to gather mats, the blueprint then hit craft and voila you have the mats. Rarer is when their is a timer on said item allowing for a more realistic crafting time as it takes time to put things together.

Timer

This is a differnet way to go about crafting, it's been done before but not often enough to feel stale or done to death so it sort of fits.  Crafting takes time (as i outlined above) to do. If you gather the mats and the blueprints. When you hit craft you have a timer until the item is complete. THe player doesn't really have any control over the item but it's a middle road between player control and just hitting the craft button and getting the item. Think Fallen earth here.

Crits

While not completely new, it's different from most MMOs i've seen where you either get the item or you don't. Here appearntly you can get a better version of the weapon. (this one is debatable on the list, so far 3 MMOs have been listed)

Lets move on to character customization, this one i'm going to have to split into parts because theres a good bit here.

Light and dark allignment

Your allignment has a few effects on character customization. Note this is as far as i know purely cosmetic so it doesn't change how well your character does.

Light/dark allignment changes your skills: this gives your character a more defined look as your skills change as you slide up and down the allignment changes.

Armor dependant on your alignment: some armor is dependant on your allignment, such as some armor requires a certain ranking of light/dark to equip

Your face for force users changes based on your allignment allowing for a different look for your charcther if your really dark sided your face distorts and looks...well evil.

NPCs react to your dark and light allignment

Some dialog options close off based on your allignment

Equipment customization.

Equipment is based more solely on what mods you have in your weapon and armor rather then the equipment itself, equipment more solely bases on how many mods are allowed in said equipment that will then depict your stats from there.

The mods you have in your weapon/armor depict your weapons sound and color (ala lightsaber colors or blaster fire)

These two basically (assuming you can take mods in and out at will) allow for you to make any weapon you want provided you have the original, even take a low level weapon and armor such as if you like the brown robe from level 1, you could improve it to the stat where you can use that same brown robe for end-game.

Questing

This is probably the biggest change and departure and where all the focus/innovation is coming in.

Voice over, as much as people might like to try and deny or say it's a passing phase theres a differnece between just text and voice acting.  Most games have some voice acting and some not, but no game has the level of voice acting this game does.  Thus it's a very big depature on how they do quests.

Interaction with npcs, such as talking back and forth with them, even being able to hit them.

Choices in quests allowing you to take different versions of the quest which result in different experiences when you play out the quest, and even different rewards. Most MMOs have you simply doing a quest for said reward, however here what you do in the actual quest when taking progressing and turning in change how the quest ends and what rewards you get.

Pursasion is an optino in questing, allowing you to attempt to get the upper hand by using a stat you invested in to get better rewards that might not be available to one who doesn't.

multiplayer dialog, to my knowledge this is an innovation but people are free to correct me if they've run into this before. But allowing a person to affect someone elses quest via dialog seems a pretty big depature from how normal MMOs do it where you can either do the quest and complete your own or help someone else do theres but the interaction stops when they go to turn in the quest, not so here, group interaction is not only allowed but encouraged as you get rewarded for doing group dialog and interacting in others quests.

Hologram system

This allows you to not only turn in quests remotely but allows you to join in others peoples quest even if your not close but are still on the same planet. Far as i know the way this is implemented with being able to make decisions in others peoples quests without having to actually be there hasn't been done before.

Companions

Being able to influence your companion from light to dark or dark to light

Influences your crafting abilities.

Getting quests from your companions if you talk to them enough.

Companions are able to go from loving you to betraying you even to crying in your ship if you are a total jerk to them.

 

Dungeons (aka flashpoints)

Changing dungeons based on choices in the dungeons

Players can get access to alternate paths and different bosses if they of the right class

Different loot at the end of flashpoints based on the decisions made in the flashpoint

 

PvP

As mentioned above there is a CC immunity bar that everyone must be aware of and it's visable which gives for a more tatic route. Also this keeps players from being stun locked by another class merely because they lack the resistance to overcome said CC.

Warriors and healers can actually preform the desired role they want in PvP they did in PvE as they get rewarded for doing said role.

Warrior taunt works in PvP by making it undesirable for people to attack others besides the tank as their damage is severaly reduced.

 

Exploration

Exploration in this game give you several rewards including,

Datacrons (which give permanent stat boosts): This isn't normal as i think only one other game did this and it was more of a grind thing where as these are more of a reward for exploration

options for dialog with your companions: Again this is tied in with the companion but getting to certain exploration areas can give you new oppertunities for dialog with your npcs as they comment on the areas

codex entries: Your lore background

 

Misc

We finally get to the misc category which is basically everything i didn't feel fit into th other categories or wasn't enough to warrent a whole new category

Codex entries: This is where you get all your lore from anytime you run into some you can easily look back at this codex to get a refresher, this can include anything from a temple to a boss to companions or items which tend to be quite descriptive.

No loading for instances: When you do eventually enter a instance in the game there is a green barrier which indicates an instance, this is completely instantanious and does not require loading, so you can go into your instance do what you want walk backwards walk forward enter someone elses instance, do their thing then back up and walk forward back into your instance all without ever hitting one loading screen...ever.

Cheoregraphed combat: This one might be cosmetic but most games have you just swinging away as if you were swining at air. EQ2 was the biggest offender i've ever seen of this where you have literal gap where you can clearly see that not only are they not synced with each other but not even close but still hitting each other. In this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

 

Obviously this list can be amended as new things that are done differently (not innovative, lets not confuse the term, just done differently from the norm aka the standard) then most other MMOs or it comes out that things on this list are a normal part of MMOs (hopefully i've done my research and that won't happen much)

With the continuous debate over that SWTOR isn't doing things differently and the claim of some that SWTOR is practically the same as WoW, I decided to highlight the distinctions in the post above.

Some additions and remarks:

- tanks protecting skills aren't useless in PvP, you'll be able to protect your teammates and mitigate damage to them by the use of shielding assist skills.

- larger flexibility in team formation, if a team member is lacking for a 4-man group, a Companion can fill in the empty spot and pick up any role. Furthermore, each class is able to fulfill several roles, those 2 elements make it easier to realise fully effective groups with combining various classes than in other MMO's.

- there is offline crafting much like EVE has offline skill leveling, and you can do other activities while crafting is happening. You are more crafting team leader or project manager, managing crafting/Crew Mission progress, than the guy who is doing it.

- Also, SWTOR's crafting/harvesting system is more expansive than regular MMO crafting, its Crew Skills system contains more than just crafting and harvesting professions.

- via crafting it is possible in SWTOR to upgrade your gear, up to the point that you could wear L15 armor that's as good and effective as L50 gear.

- branched questing: your decisions have effect on later, other quests and dialogues, so your questing experience can be different based upon the quest choices you made earlier ingame

- Legacy system

- different types of PvP minigames, like siege/assault mode and sports/gladiator type (Huttball)

- Your Companion can do gathering in the field for you, be sent to town to sell off your excess loot (a la Torchlight), and have different skillsets and roles by changing AI kits

- player ships: a command center from where you travel to other worlds and where crafting can be done, a moveable player house that's more effectively integrated in the overall gameplay than player houses are in other MMO's

As far as I see it, SWTOR's most rigorous changes and distinctive features are its full questing makeover, the Crew Skills that are different from regular crafting and its integrated Companion system. Those are the features that are a clear difference from other MMO's. All the other distinctions are smaller, nice-to-have changes and smaller improvements upon existing features.

Sure, for people who are fed up with themepark MMO's and dislike the whole genre, all themepark MMO's are the same, the differences between one and the other are meaningless to them. But that doesn't mean that, within the themepark design school, MMO's aren't different from eachother with their own distinctions and particular flavor of gameplay.

As the list above shows, SWTOR is its own brand and execution of themepark MMO gameplay.

I thought this thread deserved a bump since the question about the differences in SWTOR with other themepark MMO's (like WoW) keeps popping up.

/bump

Originally posted by SanHor

The only thing that TOR is doing differently and is worth mentioning is a complete voice over story. Reading your list just proves that even further.

And more than half of the things you mentioned has already been done in other MMOs. Perhaps you meant what SWTOR does differently to WOW? Don't know..

I've read this thread longer than I needed to. Only to come back to this reply and agree 100%.

What gets me is the wordering for the crowd control resist by the OP. Apparently the phrase "diminishing returns" never entered his RPG vocab.

Look, I'm sure it'll be a fine game.

But telling the story behind why you need to go from hub A to point B and kill X amount of C is the only real differently being done here.

Originally posted by whilan

Okay I see the comment a lot, and i don't mean just here. But i see it a lot that people will state that the game isn't doing anything differently from the standard MMO, and i'm going to try and make a list of everything the game is doing differently so people can see as it may not be entirely apparent at first sight. Note this isn't about innovation so just becuase a feature i'm listing is in some remote MMO doesn't mean it doesn't belong on this list. Note things like auto attack and fast cooldowns don't meet this list because quite a few MMOs do this.

I"m going to split this up in sections.this game you can actually clash swords which makes things more beliveable.

 

(LOTS OF UNIQUE STUFF)

 

Obviously this list can be amended as new things that are done differently (not innovative, lets not confuse the term, just done differently from the norm aka the standard) then most other MMOs or it comes out that things on this list are a normal part of MMOs (hopefully i've done my research and that won't happen much)

Yea seems different.  Think you have a point there. 

And it would be really helpful to the point if when Bioware was asked if the game was like WoW or played like WoW they might say something like:

" The game will be comparison worthy.  But no, we've made our own game.  We're proud of it, and we've put a plethora of unique mechanics into Swtor.  World of Warcraft is a fine game, but we've made something unique, and we're excited for fans to experience it.  " 

NOT :  " Anyone who strays too far from the WoW Rulebook is being stupid. " 

Not a direct quote but close enough.  If the Devs would stop comparing it to WoW and instead own their game as their own vision then the community in general might stop making WoW comparisons as often.  Even if the game is similar in game play to WoW its not like they stole the WoW engine.  They had to create every bit of this themselves.  They should OWN it. 

Bioware, never say the word WoW again and you'll be fine.  I promise.  But shut up about WoW.  Own your own game.