Originally posted by Quicksand

Originally posted by Kaerigan

As a hardcore player and a 1337 |-|4><><012, I would prefer if this game had perma-death. But why stop there? I see a real opportunity for Bioware to please the hardcore audience. When your character dies, I think the following should occur:

• Permanent deletion of your game account and your friends' game accounts.
• If you bought a physical copy of the game, it now catches fire and/or blows up.
• $X is withdrawn from the credit card tied to your account in order to pay for the hired assassin that is now dispatched to your location, broadcasted to Bioware via your computer.
• The game rewrites the harddrive, causing the computer to crash and forcing you to reinstall your operating system, but not before uploading all your pornographical pictures to your Facebook account's public gallery and tagging your family members in them.
• Sends a letter of resignation to your current employer (if you have one).

Bioware, are you listening? This would make the game such a fun and exciting experience, because the only reason people find fun in games is because of harsh punishment upon failure.

Just to make sure I understand your post:

 

Translated: "I want everything handed to me without effort or risk and anyone that doesn't  agree with me is an over the top extemeist lunitic."

 

That about it?

Did he said he want the boss fights to be easy?  Did he say he want NPCs to fall over instantly when you zone in?

No DP after you die does not make any encounter easier.  Fact is, if there is a sea of lava that will instant kill you, no amount of zerging will get you thru.  You need to find the bridge.

Likewise if a boss is beyond you, DP or not, you cannot kill him period.

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Quicksand

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Quicksand

Folks that didn't play Auto Assault (or any other game that had no DP) may not understand this, but the lack of a DP will, everytime, remove the need for stratagy and destroy any feel of accomplishment. No Penalty is such a bad idea.

If the game is well designed, in that you cannot zerg, DP or not, you need the strategy to beat a scenario.

There is no DP in playing chess, does not make it easier to beat a master.

Chess: Move a piece into the wrong place and you lose the piece, how is there no penalty?

 

*edit*

In fact, the penalty in chess is the only reason its hard.

Wrong, chess if you lose a game you restart, or your opponent allows you to take back the move and try.

In a game, if your alt takes a hit, he lost hitpoints, much like you lose a piece in chess.  DP is when you die, much like you got checkmated in chess.  With DP you suffer and is unable to resume playing without some corrective moves, like corpse running.  In chess, you just clear the board and start over.  No penalty

Are you even reading what your typing? 

"chess if you lose a game you restart" = "in an MMO you die, you restart"

"or your opponent allows you to take back the move and try" = Thats what SWTOR is doing, but NO CHESS MASTER does, if they did, then its called practice, not playing. Not to mention, when your mom lets you redo the move, then you end up winning, did you actually win? No!

"With DP you suffer and is unable to resume playing without some corrective moves,"  -/-  "in chess, you just clear the board and start over." = Are you reading this?

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Quicksand

Originally posted by Kaerigan

As a hardcore player and a 1337 |-|4><><012, I would prefer if this game had perma-death. But why stop there? I see a real opportunity for Bioware to please the hardcore audience. When your character dies, I think the following should occur:

• Permanent deletion of your game account and your friends' game accounts.
• If you bought a physical copy of the game, it now catches fire and/or blows up.
• $X is withdrawn from the credit card tied to your account in order to pay for the hired assassin that is now dispatched to your location, broadcasted to Bioware via your computer.
• The game rewrites the harddrive, causing the computer to crash and forcing you to reinstall your operating system, but not before uploading all your pornographical pictures to your Facebook account's public gallery and tagging your family members in them.
• Sends a letter of resignation to your current employer (if you have one).

Bioware, are you listening? This would make the game such a fun and exciting experience, because the only reason people find fun in games is because of harsh punishment upon failure.

Just to make sure I understand your post:

 

Translated: "I want everything handed to me without effort or risk and anyone that doesn't  agree with me is an over the top extemeist lunitic."

 

That about it?

Did he said he want the boss fights to be easy?  Did he say he want NPCs to fall over instantly when you zone in?

No DP after you die does not make any encounter easier.  Fact is, if there is a sea of lava that will instant kill you, no amount of zerging will get you thru.  You need to find the bridge.

Likewise if a boss is beyond you, DP or not, you cannot kill him period.

You kind of missed the point of my reply, his post is seemingly intended to imply that anyone not agreeing with his no DP view must be insane.

But thank you

Originally posted by Roin

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

My question would be why have anyone die, knocked out, or defeated then at all? The idea / mechanic itself is to represent the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, why even have the mechanism for failure?

Because a lot of people find it "unfair" to be "punished" for being shitty, reckless players.

'course... you can never reward them enough for being absolutely mediocre and doing the most absolutely mundane things. If you could get half a level of xp for simply typing an emote correctly, there'd be people saying "Finally!!! A dev that understands how we deserve to be rewarded for typing /laugh successfully!".

Tell them there's a 3 minute "resurrection sickness" associated, and they're all "That isn't fun!!!! Why am I being punished for failing!!!" I've actually seen people say, and I quote, "This is 2011. Dying should be fun. Why dont' devevelopers understand this?" And they weren't joking. I don't think I've ever /facepalmed so hard.

I had near zero interest in this game before.... but still a "glimmer" of interest... 'cause you never know.

After this little nugget... It has officially hit zero.

Then why not make the penalty yourself as someone said earlier. If you think the developers penalty is so bad, why not apply your own? Just died, go break a piece of your armor or sell it off.  Want your very own corpse run? Just don't use the probe, opt to go back to Med Bay, take off all your gear, and run naked back to the spot of your death.

I mean people toss around the words "hand holding" all the time. Yet there is nothing stopping them from imposing their own death penalty on themselves. Of course they won't do that, they would rather say it's the developers fault for not having a death penalty that they consider harsh enough. 

I agree Roin.  I would add that after the first gen games there really hasn't been a death penalty anyway.  When I played Lineage and died I could lose a couple weeks worth of leveling progress in a single death.  If there was a bad streak people could loose a couple months worth.  The harsh penalty was interesting for a while, but gradually it was a major detractor from the fun in the game.  Eventually NCSoft added methods to buy your way out of the xp loss because people grew tired of spinning their wheels.

A harsh death penalty might add some challenge if they're implemented properly, but none of the "death penalty proponents" I've seen in this thread are really talking about a heavy penalty anyway.  A corpse run, item wear, or repair cost isn't really a penalty in games where there are methods to circumvent this or gold is so easy to farm.  On top of that none of them add fun or challenge to the content.  They discourage attempting challenging content and encourage players to take the easiest route to rewards.

It will be interesting to see how Bioware handles repeated failures.  So far I like the idea that you can make more than one attempt at a challenge providing the opportunity to change tactics and overcome mistakes without having to start completely over.

Anyways, I for one have already preordered so I will be at the very least, playing the start out month. Hopefully Bio surprises me and has come up with a system of no penalty that will not change the feel and challenge of the encounters. I think the game (minus this, and more importantly, the 4 man group size limit) looks great. Hopefully it turn out to be.

No one is saying that it should be a perma death but ffs bioware has swung the pendulum

& is now rewarding reckless fail noob behaviour, a simpel rez sickness or item decay etc

would be a fair 'middle of the road' sort of thing, stop the care bear shit plx

Originally posted by ukforze

No one is saying that it should be a perma death but ffs bioware has swung the pendulum

& is now rewarding reckless fail noob behaviour, a simpel rez sickness or item decay etc

would be a fair 'middle of the road' sort of thing, stop the care bear shit plx

Your sig is priceless !!! and I dont even hate SOE, but hilarious!!!!

Originally posted by Quicksand

Originally posted by ukforze

No one is saying that it should be a perma death but ffs bioware has swung the pendulum

& is now rewarding reckless fail noob behaviour, a simpel rez sickness or item decay etc

would be a fair 'middle of the road' sort of thing, stop the care bear shit plx

Your sig is priceless !!! and I dont even hate SOE, but hilarious!!!!

i dont hate $OE, i dislike their practices, i blame LA for most Starwars project fails

be it a game or a film, LA generally suck balls

Originally posted by ukforze

i dont hate $OE, i dislike their practices, i blame LA for most Starwars project fails

be it a game or a film, LA generally suck balls

If it wasn't for Lucas you wouldn't even have Star Wars. He can do whatever he wants with it. Not that he owes anyone anything.

Originally posted by Chilliesauce

Originally posted by ukforze

i dont hate $OE, i dislike their practices, i blame LA for most Starwars project fails

be it a game or a film, LA generally suck balls

If it wasn't for Lucas you wouldn't even have Star Wars. He can do whatever he wants with it. Not that he owes anyone anything.

There was LA: X-Wing, monkey  Island, Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango, Dark Forces

Now it's LA with: NGE, CWA...

Nearly all the people who made LA great either retired, left or been fired. LA is not even a shadow of what it was.

Originally posted by ukforze

Originally posted by Quicksand

Originally posted by Kaerigan

As a hardcore player and a 1337 |-|4><><012, I would prefer if this game had perma-death. But why stop there? I see a real opportunity for Bioware to please the hardcore audience. When your character dies, I think the following should occur:

• Permanent deletion of your game account and your friends' game accounts.
• If you bought a physical copy of the game, it now catches fire and/or blows up.
• $X is withdrawn from the credit card tied to your account in order to pay for the hired assassin that is now dispatched to your location, broadcasted to Bioware via your computer.
• The game rewrites the harddrive, causing the computer to crash and forcing you to reinstall your operating system, but not before uploading all your pornographical pictures to your Facebook account's public gallery and tagging your family members in them.
• Sends a letter of resignation to your current employer (if you have one).

Bioware, are you listening? This would make the game such a fun and exciting experience, because the only reason people find fun in games is because of harsh punishment upon failure.

Just to make sure I understand your post:

 

Translated: "I want everything handed to me without effort or risk and anyone that doesn't  agree with me is an over the top extemeist lunitic."

 

That about it?

Yeh that about sums up the guys crazy post, the fact he wants it all for no risk...

basically he fail at games like all the other ppl that cry for perma death & other features to be

erradicated from games = modern gaming suck balls... it's all themepark care bear shit

To the first reply: where have I said that I do not want to put any effort in to the game I'm playing? Also, is not the chance of dying risk enough? You're taken out of the action and cannot contribute. Just like in a lot of other competitive online games. The way SWTOR will do it is perhaps a bit exaggerated with seemingly no timer for the first respawn (correct me if I'm wrong here). I do however like that the more you fuck up, the longer it'll take before you can self-resurrect. Finally, my post was meant to be an exaggeration of the hardcore mentality, just like that guy some pages back who stated that casual players wanted to be rewarded for typing an emote properly. Please note that I believe perma-death has its place, but I do not think that place is in MMOs that are in the vein of SWTOR. The game would have to be completely different for perma-death to work. Roguelikes are an example of where I feel perma-death is appropriate. See Dungeons of Dredmor for a recent one.

To the second reply: I'm curious what you mean by "other features". And I don't think modern gaming sucks balls. There are plenty of fun games out there that are quite hard. Demon's Souls is one of my favorites, and now I'm playing Bastion, in which the difficulty can be heightened (giving perma-buffs to enemies etc and making them more vicious) in exchange for greater monetary and experience rewards. Super Meat Boy is a fun game too, hard as shit.

If you read the early scripts for Star Wars, you get a grasp of how much Lucas was 'helped' along the way with his story.  Lucas believed in his original movie, but ignoring the continuing mediocrity and failure is just a blind spot.   He's completely lost the what vision he had, and doesn't really get what made the early films so iconic. 

A lack of death penalty does not make the game any harder.   At best it makes it take longer.   If you die against an encounter, the encounter resets.   So how does a lack of a death penalty make that encounter the slightest bit easier?   At most it means you can try again sooner, that's all.

Let's stop with all the hyperbole about how lack of a harsh death penalty = easy, because it does not in any way at all.

Originally posted by gaou

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I guess I can't really comment on it until I experience it's implementation first hand.

I'm tempted to say that it's lame, that you should at LEAST have to respawn back at the cloning point. But Bioware may surprise me and pull this off in a way that doesn't take the thrill and challenge completely out of the game.

thats how it used to be but they changed it due to tester feedback

GeorgZoeller

Joined: May 2010

06.08.2011 , 04:18 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by BDreason And the response from Georg is ridiculous as well. You took away corpse runs because beat testers didn't like it? Of course the beta testers didn't like corpse running... nobody does. That's why it's called a PENALTY for death. Honestly, they may as well rename this game Carebears in Space if they plan on caving to every players request. No. I'm a bit amazed (just kidding, this is the internet) that you think we would operate like that. But yes - if 95% of testers tell you that you have a problem, you listen. You don't shut your ears and sing to yourself 'they're carebears, they hate any penalty'. We added this option because the impact of the 'walk back from medcenter' penalty, in our game, is huge - worse than in comparable MMOs. Here's why: The distances in a world that is built to scale, on planets like Tatooine, are vast. A lot of the content is not instanced and is open world and you don't enjoy fighting your way back deep into the objective areas when you die. We're not talking about 1-3 minutes of walking. In some cases, we're talking about 10-15 minutes of repeating content. That's not fun. As Daniel explained, we're not shy of making challenging content that is interesting to overcome. But content does not get more challenging by giving it a harsh, repetitive death penalty - penalties just happen after the fact and do not, in any way or form, make the content more challenging, fun or even difficult. The only challenge a really harsh death penalty adds is to player's patience or tolerance to repeating the same content over and over. Most people don't find that fun, and we don't either. By adding this system, we are able to create content that kills the player once or twice until they figure out how to overcome it. We can create challenges and players are given a chance to overcome them. They can afford to fail, regroup and try again instead of spending 15 minutes sitting around while some player tries to make his way back to the group. If you are looking for hardcore and punishing death penalties that weed out the weak players (e.g. the ones that don't have infinite patience and time), The Old Republic will not be your game. That does not mean we're attempting to make an extremely easy game with no challenge.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6674889#post6674889

so people can thank testers for it

 Thank you testers.

I mean thats the way most themeparks are, there really isnt a penalty for dieing, that kind of mechanic is dead and gone. even in RIFT you can res on the spot every 30mins

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Its... a video game. What do you want the death penalty to be? When video games came out, death meant you inserted 25 cents to continue. Its a game. Its entertainment. Is there an mmo out there thats handing death penalties the way you prefer?

 

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Boy I spent a lot of quarters in those days. Drank a lot of beer as well.

Originally posted by laresloci

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Its... a video game. What do you want the death penalty to be? When video games came out, death meant you inserted 25 cents to continue. Its a game. Its entertainment. Is there an mmo out there thats handing death penalties the way you prefer?

 

---

Boy I spent a lot of quarters in those days. Drank a lot of beer as well.

I finished Side Arms arcade, that was hardcore!

I don't remember if you could continue with coins, i think not, cause I remember the suffering.

Originally posted by SwampRob

A lack of death penalty does not make the game any harder.   At best it makes it take longer.   If you die against an encounter, the encounter resets.   So how does a lack of a death penalty make that encounter the slightest bit easier?   At most it means you can try again sooner, that's all.

Let's stop with all the hyperbole about how lack of a harsh death penalty = easy, because it does not in any way at all.

It's not "lack of death penalty = easy" exactly. I would say the equation is "lack of death penalty = trivial content".

If there is no death penalty, you can go everywhere, everything looks more or less the same and all is bland and unimportant. On the other hand, with harsh death penalty, you look at a dungeons entrance and feel a knot in your guts and you develop a respect for the environment and the enemies, which gives the whole MMO a bigger significance.

Originally posted by ktanner3
As others have stated, if you want harsh penalties, impose them on yourself. Or mayhe go play a game that does have harsher penalties like EVE or Darkfall. Then again I suspect the ones crying so much about this never intended to play in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGjDoxoNM8

This is a death penalty for people who want harsh penalties.