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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hey With (Diablo 3) doing something new with the RMT age of MMORPG,, I was wondering. when will we get legal rights over our character and virtual items?

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50 posts found
  hanshotfirst

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/07
Posts: 727

8/12/11 5:18:01 PM#41

Personally, I won't be playing Diablo 3.

Not due to the RMT thing (though that does rub me the wrong way), but rather because:

  • I got my fill of isometric button mashers 14+ years ago
  • We won't be able to mod it
  • We won't be able to play it offline

They might as well go for the kiss of death and charge a monthly subscription fee while they're at it. And honestly it wouldn't surprise me if Activision isn't already contemplating it.

  Dewm

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/29/09
Posts: 1341

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

8/12/11 7:13:32 PM#42
Originally posted by hanshotfirst
Originally posted by Dewm
"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share."
 
Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis
 
 

Totally off topic, but 33.7 percent is peanuts when your portfolio is worth more than the GDP of several nation states.

Speaking for the countless multitudes who thanklessly toil 40+ hours a week to ensure your roads are paved, groceries are delivered, and 911 calls are responded to--and have less to show for it over the course of a year than a hedge fund manager earns by the hour--I have ZERO sympathy for the ultra-wealthy who complain the lowest tax rate this country has seen in over sixty years is still too high while begruding the less fortunate affordable health care and food stamps.

Am I jealous? Am I promoting "class warfare"?? You're darn tootin' I am.

¡Viva la Revolución!


(P.S.: 66.3% > 33.7%, just sayin'.

that 33.7% was paid by just ONE PERCENT, if you look at the sheet, in 2008 the top 50% pay 97.30% of the taxes. I think the rich do more then their share.

And I am one of those who work 40+ hrs a week, I make 40k a year. i'm not rich, but I work for what I have. and I don't care if some hedge fund manager is making in a week more then i'll make in my life.

Why is it there duty to pay for my healthcare? are you that lazy?

 

I mean i'm guessing you make anywhere from 10k-60k a year, why don't you pay for those people in Africa who make pennies a day? why arn't you paying their healthcare?

I mean our "poor" in america still have a house drive a car and have at least one TV. But ignorance is bliss.

 

To keep this one topic. 

I agree with you "han" on the Diablo 3 thing, blizzard is going to have to come up with something new to keep my money. Same button mashing, and the cash shops don't really have me swaying one way or another. but it deffinitly doesn't help.

 

Oh and no prob Venge, I didn't word it very well.

  thexrated

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/04
Posts: 1379

8/12/11 7:55:06 PM#43

Sooner companies adsress this issue the better we gamers be for it. There is demand for ownership of virtual goods and smart companies will allow it. Or they have to struggle with expanding grey market and suffer the consequences from it.

Also, TOS and EULA are not so straight forward legally, as many believe them to be.

I think both Blizzard and CCP are moving towards the right direction.

"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  rounner

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 534

8/12/11 8:12:21 PM#44
Originally posted by Dewm
Originally posted by hanshotfirst
Originally posted by Dewm
"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share."
 
Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis
 
 

Totally off topic, but 33.7 percent is peanuts when your portfolio is worth more than the GDP of several nation states.

Speaking for the countless multitudes who thanklessly toil 40+ hours a week to ensure your roads are paved, groceries are delivered, and 911 calls are responded to--and have less to show for it over the course of a year than a hedge fund manager earns by the hour--I have ZERO sympathy for the ultra-wealthy who complain the lowest tax rate this country has seen in over sixty years is still too high while begruding the less fortunate affordable health care and food stamps.

Am I jealous? Am I promoting "class warfare"?? You're darn tootin' I am.

¡Viva la Revolución!


(P.S.: 66.3% > 33.7%, just sayin'.

that 33.7% was paid by just ONE PERCENT, if you look at the sheet, in 2008 the top 50% pay 97.30% of the taxes. I think the rich do more then their share.

And I am one of those who work 40+ hrs a week, I make 40k a year. i'm not rich, but I work for what I have. and I don't care if some hedge fund manager is making in a week more then i'll make in my life.

Why is it there duty to pay for my healthcare? are you that lazy?

 

I mean i'm guessing you make anywhere from 10k-60k a year, why don't you pay for those people in Africa who make pennies a day? why arn't you paying their healthcare?

I mean our "poor" in america still have a house drive a car and have at least one TV. But ignorance is bliss.

 

To keep this one topic. 

I agree with you "han" on the Diablo 3 thing, blizzard is going to have to come up with something new to keep my money. Same button mashing, and the cash shops don't really have me swaying one way or another. but it deffinitly doesn't help.

 

Oh and no prob Venge, I didn't word it very well.

The top one percent earn 24% of the income (source Wikipedia income inequality in the USA) so your implied unfairness is a little off. FYI I earn 50K, give 5% to charities and in my country I have to pay a lump sum of several thousand for medicare every year because I am just over the 50K braket. I use medicare but not to that value. Most high earners here have private health insurance which excludes them so it is my choice.

 

As for the topic, we are at the mercy of the various tax departments as to what happens next.

  jessie360

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/11
Posts: 67

8/12/11 8:50:55 PM#45
Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by Dewm
Originally posted by hanshotfirst
Originally posted by Dewm
"The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share."
 
Source: U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis
 
 

Totally off topic, but 33.7 percent is peanuts when your portfolio is worth more than the GDP of several nation states.

Speaking for the countless multitudes who thanklessly toil 40+ hours a week to ensure your roads are paved, groceries are delivered, and 911 calls are responded to--and have less to show for it over the course of a year than a hedge fund manager earns by the hour--I have ZERO sympathy for the ultra-wealthy who complain the lowest tax rate this country has seen in over sixty years is still too high while begruding the less fortunate affordable health care and food stamps.

Am I jealous? Am I promoting "class warfare"?? You're darn tootin' I am.

¡Viva la Revolución!


(P.S.: 66.3% > 33.7%, just sayin'.

that 33.7% was paid by just ONE PERCENT, if you look at the sheet, in 2008 the top 50% pay 97.30% of the taxes. I think the rich do more then their share.

And I am one of those who work 40+ hrs a week, I make 40k a year. i'm not rich, but I work for what I have. and I don't care if some hedge fund manager is making in a week more then i'll make in my life.

Why is it there duty to pay for my healthcare? are you that lazy?

 

I mean i'm guessing you make anywhere from 10k-60k a year, why don't you pay for those people in Africa who make pennies a day? why arn't you paying their healthcare?

I mean our "poor" in america still have a house drive a car and have at least one TV. But ignorance is bliss.

 

To keep this one topic. 

I agree with you "han" on the Diablo 3 thing, blizzard is going to have to come up with something new to keep my money. Same button mashing, and the cash shops don't really have me swaying one way or another. but it deffinitly doesn't help.

 

Oh and no prob Venge, I didn't word it very well.

The top one percent earn 24% of the income (source Wikipedia income inequality in the USA) so your implied unfairness is a little off. FYI I earn 50K, give 5% to charities and in my country I have to pay a lump sum of several thousand for medicare every year because I am just over the 50K braket. I use medicare but not to that value. Most high earners here have private health insurance which excludes them so it is my choice.

 

As for the topic, we are at the mercy of the various tax departments as to what happens next.

Quick note: it's not wise to quote Wikipedia for information as it needs sources to be taken as legitimate.  I'd recommend following those footnotes to the real source so you sound credible.  I'm not suggesting it, but you could have added that info before posting here claiming it as credible.

On topic: interesting idea, but the ramifications, as many have said, are too problematic to be implemented in a reasonable manner.  Are you willing to pay legal fees to try and get your hard earned "items" back?  What about compensation for time spent "working"?  Are you going to have a timesheet you fill out daily?  Don't forget to clock out for your breaks.

It's best to see it as a service, like a massage or carpet cleaning.  You don't "own" the masseuse's hand, nor do you own anything from the carpet cleaning company other than the service they provide.  If your carpet gets dirty again, you can't sue them.

The only problem I see with D3 is the fact that if or when the servers go down, we have a product that we bought but cannot play.  I can load up and play D1 or D2 anytime I want.  But if I'm agreeing to Blizzard's limited use of the game, then I won't be supporting them with my money and will choose a company I would rather see flourish because they have the consumer in mind.

  Totec

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 220

Just sayin'

8/12/11 11:14:24 PM#46

I think there have been a lot of good points on both sides, and I also would like to thank the OP for this great topic.

Personally, I believe that it will eventually get to the point were we do own portions of our online character. Perhaps the Items, that we acquire, and possibly the reputation and experience. However, I don't think it will ever get to a point of full ownership on players part. 

In order for it to get to the point where MMO's are literal virtual worlds, there would have to be a source of relation.  Humor me for just a second,  The current gaming industry is seen as an entertainment industry. We would have to change that idea, sounds simple enough, but this would be a legal shit storm.  

Currently the system is set up on the precidence that the consumers are paying the gaming companies for entertainment, or legally speaking a distributed prepackaged item that's primary use is for leisure.  In order to own something in this definition, one must first prove right to ownership. Since you are paying for a replica of a copyrightten material you don't own any of it. You simply own the right to view the product.

In order for us to own something, we couldn't have that item patented previously.   This means to own a character you would have to code, design, and render the character yourself. Then file for a patent and you would own distribution rights to that character.  (BTW if someone else steals your character before you can copyright it, you are s.o.l.) Moreover, you could purchase virtual tools, that would only help facilitate your design, but then you have to hire lawyers, to prosecute against anyone that steals that design. Moreover, you would need a secure place to store your virtual items, this means paying someone a service to watch over your virtual items. Moreover, you are going to be expending quite a bit of money just paying for services in this world. Think about it, you could (and in all likelihood would) be charged with taxes for services, transportation, and trades. You might need an income after all these expenses, and you also might want some guarantee in case you do lose your items (I.E. A Job, and insurance).  

The point is that if you're going to have full ownership over virtual property, then you might just end up turning the game into a spitting image of the world as it is today. All the crime, economics, responsibility, and repercussions would follow.  I personally play games to get away from all that, I really don't want to have the responsibility and ramifications that real life has. That's why I play games, and I'd venture that I'm not alone in that.

I'm glad that games are classified as an entertainment, and I would like to keep them that way. 

P.S. Keep in mind I'm talking about full ownership in this scenario, not partial ownership.   Partial ownership is a whole different shit storm trying to figure out who owns what, when they own that, for how long, are they taxed, are they regulated, is that property valuable in the case of virtual armageddon, etc.  All that I'm sure will come in time. It may take years to get it all sorted, but I have no doubt that it will come eventually. 

  jinxxed0

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 846

8/12/11 11:34:58 PM#47

No. For the simple fact that 95% pf all players will be completely ignorant of the law. In Second Life people constant;y threaten each other with DMCA's even though they have no grounds to. They never read the Terms of Service, and falsely accouse people of things all the time. Not to mention it'd be way too much stress for the game devs to have to deal with massive amounts of cases, because so and so lost a sword.

 

It seems like you have a beef with game companies themselves banning people. All you have to do is not get banned. People that say they were banned for no reason are usually lying and eventually admit that they might have said something bad and then go on to say its no reason to ban them. So its like, if you aren't the type of person to go around breaching the ToS and then lie about it afterwards, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. 

  hanshotfirst

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/07
Posts: 727

8/13/11 12:04:44 AM#48
Originally posted by Dewm

that 33.7% was paid by just ONE PERCENT, if you look at the sheet, in 2008 the top 50% pay 97.30% of the taxes. I think the rich do more then their share.

"...as of 2009, the net worth of the nation’s 400 wealthiest individuals exceeds the net worth of half of all American households."

Michael Moore, as confirmed by politifact.com

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/10/michael-moore/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

 

Originally posted by Dewm

And I am one of those who work 40+ hrs a week, I make 40k a year. i'm not rich, but I work for what I have. and I don't care if some hedge fund manager is making in a week more then i'll make in my life.


When it has a direct impact on how much you're paying at the pump or the property value of your home (not to mention whether your 401k has any money left in it by the time you retire), you should care.

Originally posted by Dewm

Why is it there duty to pay for my healthcare? are you that lazy?

 

So you can live a day longer to mow their lawns.

Seriously bro, you're 22. I remember what it was like to be 22. Wait 'till you're 52 and have to make a decision between going to the doctor to check on an unexpected lump and buying groceries... for the next six months.

 

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2931

I actually still like MMORPGs

8/13/11 12:21:16 AM#49
Originally posted by vesavius

I agree with the OP for the most part.

It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

People need to wake up.

 

No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

 I hate this argument, how is buying a virtual sword in a game, any different than buying the game itself? You're paying for access to specific content developed by people who do not work for free. Period.

  Erstok

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 581

Fanatics are picturesque, mankind would rather see gestures than listen to reason.

8/13/11 12:32:27 AM#50

Your paying to essentially rent out the game. No different with the coming of Cloud Computing. In the past we got hard copies and had the physical thing in are hands. It's coming to a day n' age where your going to see it's more like renting an apartment to even do something like play video games. Thank god for cd cracks.

It'll be like shoving quarters into arcade machines. Only way you play is to pay. MMO's already follow that. It's only matter of time till everything does. Cause the plastic CD is just that, piece of plastic and inexpensive. The data on the CD is what developers and companies shit themselves over and try to protect. To be honest actually what it costs to make DVD's is actually cheaper compared to what it cost to make VHS tapes and Casette tapes back in the day. Developers charge same price if not more for the DVD. Which will soon switch to Cloud Computing and developers will charge even more.

Here's and example for you folks. Look at the collectors editions coming out for newer games. SW:ToR 150 dollars, Skyrim 150 dollars. Call it a social experiment if you will. Average out how many are willing to pay that price for a game compared to the overall results of the whole consumer base. If collecters editions are being eaten up by people more then the regular editions. Is it possible with such decisions we are seeing now such as RMT with large Triple A developers like Blizzard that they will just say screw it, raise the price of games to 70 or 80 dollras by default? Only way to truly know is to wait and see down the road. Now of course prices can change due to inflation but if prices drastically raise for no apparent reason, you know money grubbing is the root of it

Look at SWG for example. Bad decisions and instead of lowering the price to meet consumer demand or changing and fixing the mistakes they made. They continued on the road and essentially told their consumer base "don't like it, tough shit".

Consumers need to literally read the EULA's before they agree to them. Be more knowledgeable in what you agree and sign to. Cause honestly playing games is getting to the point it's like going over a written contract with a lawyer present. Only an fool would sign without reading what they are signing too.


When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?

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