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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hey With (Diablo 3) doing something new with the RMT age of MMORPG,, I was wondering. when will we get legal rights over our character and virtual items?

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50 posts found
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5906

 
OP  8/11/11 4:50:43 PM#1

Diablo 3, the upcoming MMORPG from Blizzard Entertainment, has steered up great controversy over its new Real Auction House system.

Well sinces its our money thats playing for these Virtual Items,,, I feel its about time MMORPG companies abandon this ideal, that we the player consumer base, have No legal ownership over our virtual characters and items.
We pay for these virtual "objects of code", so we deserve to be owners of that "object of coding".

I really dislike how these MMO Companies can ban people's account without reason.
just like that guy from WoTLK (forgot his name, but him and his friends were some of the first to reach close to max level before getting ban hammer from Blizzard after a GM said it was ok. But later they did get their accounts back) But I simply dislike how they can ban and close out all our hard earned "Objects of Code"

In my opinion, we have sat back and let this mess go on for so long, that even Smartphone makers like Apple are picking up on these crazy habits. They can shut your Iphone/Ipad down if they see fit. WTF?!

Come on people... Its about time we get some ownership... Hey if you want to ban my account,,, I want a refund of everything,,,, every single cent I spent in the item mall/ RAH (Real Auction House)
 

Should we the consumers now have Ownership over our Virtual "Objects of Coding"?

Yes we should have ownership
No, we should not have ownership
(login to vote)

  Ezhae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

8/11/11 4:58:19 PM#2

Never. For a simple reasons. 

 

First thing is the fact that legal systems vary between countries and even states. As long as the company holds the rights to character all legal stuff is on their grounds, not per player basis. 

If that would ever happen imagine the legal hell after the game servers go down. They would somehow have to reimburse you for the loss of items/currency/characters because suddenly you won them. 

Second thing is the fact that we expect companies to provide certain level of administration over the games. If characters were legally yours it would make it troublesome to ban them. 

Downtimes of any sorts? Another problem with actually owning the character and it;s possessions. 

Re-selling outside of company jurisdiction - again, if you own it in theory you can do anything with it. 

There is reason why you don't really "buy games" per se, only licence to play them, it won't change, unless someone will completley rework world legal system

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7120

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

8/11/11 5:01:15 PM#3

I agree with the OP for the most part.

It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

People need to wake up.

 

No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

  Tanon

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/08
Posts: 183

8/11/11 5:03:30 PM#4
Originally posted by Ezhae

Never. For a simple reasons. 

 

First thing is the fact that legal systems vary between countries and even states. As long as the company holds the rights to character all legal stuff is on their grounds, not per player basis. 

If that would ever happen imagine the legal hell after the game servers go down. They would somehow have to reimburse you for the loss of items/currency/characters because suddenly you won them. 

Second thing is the fact that we expect companies to provide certain level of administration over the games. If characters were legally yours it would make it troublesome to ban them. 

Downtimes of any sorts? Another problem with actually owning the character and it;s possessions. 

Re-selling outside of company jurisdiction - again, if you own it in theory you can do anything with it. 

There is reason why you don't really "buy games" per se, only licence to play them, it won't change, unless someone will completley rework world legal system

This pretty much sums it up. Your opinions don't really matter since the legal side is far more pressing.

/thread

  Judasace

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/12/11
Posts: 56

8/11/11 5:03:49 PM#5

Good luck with that. Corporations own the government. They can take what they want, when they want, and when they mess up, it's our job as citizens to bail them out. If the courts and our "representatives" aren't going to hold them accountable for destroying the economy and defrauding people out of billions, I don't think they give a $#!7 about your virtual sword.

  luciusETRUR

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/06
Posts: 447

8/11/11 5:20:53 PM#6
Originally posted by Judasace

Good luck with that. Corporations own the government. They can take what they want, when they want, and when they mess up, it's our job as citizens to bail them out. If the courts and our "representatives" aren't going to hold them accountable for destroying the economy and defrauding people out of billions, I don't think they give a $#!7 about your virtual sword.

Lobbyists own the government. Most gaming companies don't have those...

  User Deleted
8/11/11 5:26:42 PM#7

I'm sure whatever rights we might have under law are specifically disclaimed in TOS and EULA.

 

Even domain names are technically "leased".  There is no ownership of the domain, only ownership of the lease to use it.

  alexhpy98721

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/09/10
Posts: 238

8/11/11 5:39:28 PM#8

How about saying "Yes we should own what we buy" and not "ZOMG you can`t do it becouse bla bla"

 

Bigger things have changed.

 

Imagine if we all say "Let`s do it!" for a change.... and act , imagine a riot on the forums.... they won`t listen to it and so on, but when we decide to boicot a game(WOW/SWOTOR/GW2) untill they give us the rights we demand.... imagine they lose 30% of their subs in one month.

 

Hurt their wallet and they will give you what you want. Just get organised.

 

  C0MA

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/07
Posts: 540

8/11/11 5:46:09 PM#9

30-40% of the votes truly displays why the middle-lower class get taxed heavier than the upper class... they don't want ownership of anything they put their time into, earning.

"Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4705

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

8/11/11 5:52:02 PM#10
Originally posted by C0MA

30-40% of the votes truly displays why the middle-lower class get taxed heavier than the upper class... they don't want ownership of anything they put their time into, earning.

 Thats quite the leap in logic there now isn't it.

Regardless I don't think we will ever own it.  We just pay for services, or rent the item.  However that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to some rights.

Venge

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

8/11/11 6:48:11 PM#11
Originally posted by alexhpy98721

Imagine if we all say "Let`s do it!" for a change.... and act , imagine a riot on the forums.... they won`t listen to it and so on, but when we decide to boicot a game(WOW/SWOTOR/GW2) untill they give us the rights we demand.... imagine they lose 30% of their subs in one month. 

You need to realize that for some people, it isn't just a "I don't care if we own it," it's a "no way in hell do I want to own this information, and I dislike immensely the fact that anyone thinks that a game's database objects is something they would want to own."

The ammount of people that would boycott a game because it doesn't provide them ownership in the game pieces is most likely less than or equal to the number of people that would start playing the game again because the boycotters weren't there.

So feel free to boycott, it would make my decade if you and everyone else that wants to hold stock in game pieces did just that.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/11/11 6:49:04 PM#12
Originally posted by vesavius

I agree with the OP for the most part.

It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

People need to wake up.

 

No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.  Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

8/11/11 6:59:23 PM#13
Originally posted by Creslin321

Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.  Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

Yeah, but it is a bit more complicated than that. If you own a DVD collection you own the DVDs even if you don't own the right to the movie. If I steal it from you the cops will actually try to help you (hopefully).

Virtual items are kinda a grey zone. And what if the company closes down the game where you bought stuff for a thousand bucks, should they repay you for that or not? Is it as bad stealing $1000 of virtual stuff as $1000 of real stuff?

I am not saying one thiing or another here about how the laws should be but there should actually be laws since people uses a lot of real money to buy stuff.

Or do you guys think we should just consider anyone buying virtual goods idiots and that they deserve to loose the stuff?

  Turkish4676

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 90

8/11/11 7:10:31 PM#14

Is it just me or do we not truly understand what physical item we should be compensated for when they no longer become working physical objects? The discs we buy should all start becoming free downloads. I would not mind so much what happens to my virtual stuff or the game for that matter, considering the only money I spend is the usage fee with the monthly sub. In games w/o a monthly sub I am cool with paying for the discs, but yeah, it is unfair if the game masters modify my ability to use said game. I buy the game and as long as I can get that game to run, it should always work. It is when the game servers go down permanently that we should be recompensated for our original purchase. Give me a non-sub monthly game and you owe me nothing as long as the game will always work or let me download free and just charge me the monthly fee. Pick one.

If my account gets banned, well that truly is a case to case basis. If I get caught cursing out some guy who truly was being that set of words I chose to describe him, then my account should be treated as such, not closed. If I get caught buying, selling, hacking, etc., something that ruins the games mechanics or economy, then yeah get rid of me. I broke the virtual law to its extent, so yeah, I lost those ownership rights. When I buy a game it is mine. If the game manufacturers break it(shut down servers permanently, life ban my IP addy, etc.) I am entitled to compensation.

Imagine if Michael Jordan came into your house and said he did not like the way his Nike's looked on you so he cut them to pieces, regardless of whether he represents Nike or his own personal opinion, someone owes you some money.

As far as virtual items, yeah people who spend money on that are not the brightest. It causes me no pain to see people lose those items. Those companies that have turned to the P2Win programs are crap. Those were buffs you paid for and buffs wear off get over it.

  Drevar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/04
Posts: 137

8/11/11 7:16:28 PM#15

What kind of lawsuits would ensue when they decide to balance an item or class, devaluing it in real cash terms?  Does allowing us to "own" our stuff also obligate them to preserve said stuff's value?

“If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.”
-Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
-Raph Koster

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4517

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

8/11/11 7:17:29 PM#16

I'm thinking of something...as simple as buying a book.

 

you own the book, but you dont own the story or the material contained within. Claiming otherwise is plagiarism at best.

 

putting aside all the modern concepts, intelectual property has always had an owner. the one who'se intellect created it.

 

if I buy a book on Snow Wtie do i all of a sudden own parts of Disney?

  azmundai

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1422

8/11/11 7:23:02 PM#17

just stop buying the crap .. srsly. Unless you are playing one of those f2p games that force you to buy things to compete .. it's your own fault .. and even then .. you are playing the wrong game imo. just stop buying that crap already.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7120

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

8/11/11 8:58:39 PM#18
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by vesavius

I agree with the OP for the most part.

It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

People need to wake up.

 

No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.

Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

 

If I buy a song I own the physical medium and the license (right) to listen to that song from my personal copy whenever I choose, with use limited according the the legal agreement I made upon purchase. This is what I have purchased. No, I don't own the song, the composer does, but I own the rights I have paid for. No one has the right to take my copy away from me once I have paid my monies, and indeed doing so would be considered theft. This is because I do actually own something.

If I buy a CD from, say, HMV, I do not rent that CD or the rights to listen to that CD... if I bought a CD from them and then they went out of business HMV wouldnt and couldnt demand the CD or the rights back. If they folded tommorow I still would be able to access and play the music I had paid for.

Now, when you buy a MMORPG you make a very different agreement. You agree with the provider that you own nothing and they own everything. You access their service 100% at their sufference. Everything you buy from their cash shop in fact remains THEIRS. No ownership or rights pass to you- It never becomes yours in any sense, you just get to borrow it for a while. And ofc, as soon as their service folds or they choose to terminate your service for any reason your purchased access to their virtual items goes with it, and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/11/11 11:18:26 PM#19
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by vesavius

I agree with the OP for the most part.

It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

People need to wake up.

 

No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.

Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

 

If I buy a song I own the physical medium and the license (right) to listen to that song from my personal copy whenever I choose, with use limited according the the legal agreement I made upon purchase. This is what I have purchased. No, I don't own the song, the composer does, but I own the rights I have paid for. No one has the right to take my copy away from me once I have paid my monies, and indeed doing so would be considered theft. This is because I do actually own something.

If I buy a CD from, say, HMV, I do not rent that CD or the rights to listen to that CD... if I bought a CD from them and then they went out of business HMV wouldnt and couldnt demand the CD or the rights back. If they folded tommorow I still would be able to access and play the music I had paid for.

Now, when you buy a MMORPG you make a very different agreement. You agree with the provider that you own nothing and they own everything. You access their service 100% at their sufference. Everything you buy from their cash shop in fact remains THEIRS. No ownership or rights pass to you- It never becomes yours in any sense, you just get to borrow it for a while. And ofc, as soon as their service folds or they choose to terminate your service for any reason your purchased access to their virtual items goes with it, and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.

What you say is true, but it's also true that most MMORPGs contain a clause in the EULA saying that the service provider may permenantly ban your account for any reason.  So I mean, you may have permanent rights to the client software, but without the ability to log onto the server...it's pretty useless.

But you know, I get your point.  At least when you buy a license to an MMORPG game you HAVE a EULA that specifies terms of use.  In the case of virtual goods, there is no license agreement and you're basically spending your money on vapor.  Vapor that can be taken away from you and you have no protection at all.  For example, what if the server crashes directly after you buy something for $80 and your character loses it?

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1780

8/11/11 11:50:32 PM#20

Consumers have rights on virtual items that are sold through cash shops.  I'm not sure how it would be enforced over P2P games, since you are purchasing access to the servers and not your characters or items.  

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