Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.

I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.

Few Points:

• All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost.  Either due to real life, game itself or both.
• I am sure this is something every MMO gamer has seen.  New MMO comes out, community swells and it feels vibrant and full of life.  3 months on it drops 50%. 6 months in, the death bell sets in and only the hard core fans are populating a now empty world.
• When an MMO becomes empty, that is when I leave.

I recently re-tried DDO because it was free and no mmo was engaging me and I found the improvements made the game very fun. I happily pay $10 a month for full use of content and points in store to spend. I found an active guild and am having a great time. Not sure what I'll do once some of these new games finally come out (SW, TOR, GW2, etc), but changing to F2P got me to try it again and regained a customer.

I agree 100%. 

Sometimes I spend more in a month on a cash shop than i would on a sub, but its not every month and you don't feel pressured into playing to get your money's worth.

When you get a normal sub game going f2p,it is just another attempt to attract money in some form or fashion.These games will not operate at a loss,players have to pay them money,without it,the game is gone.If you are able to play for free,you are either NOT playing the full version of the game,or you are just leeching off other players money,which is not right in many ways.

The only other f2p design,which you eluded to [Korean f2p]are designed from the ground up to attract money after you start playing,the premise still remains the same,they are after money.These games are MUCH cheaper to develop,easily 1/10th the cost,you will again,get what you pay for.

Using your AOC as an example,you have what ALL f2p games have [limited staff].This means little development,little support it is not a sign of anything good about to happen.Using the GW franchise as an example,they are a little sneakier,they take what a giant game would call a complete game ,and divide it into smaller episodes,this way they can charge 4x for one game,a very lame and sneaky approach if you ask me.

I would agree that if there was a game i enjoyed playing ,and they let me leech off other paying customers,i would probably do it,but i would also know it is not right at all and not feel  good about doing it.

Originally posted by Wizardry

When you get a normal sub game going f2p,it is just another attempt to attract money in some form or fashion.These games will not operate at a loss,players have to pay them money,without it,the game is gone.If you are able to play for free,you are either NOT playing the full version of the game,or you are just leeching off other players money,which is not right in many ways.

The only other f2p design,which you eluded to [Korean f2p]are designed from the ground up to attract money after you start playing,the premise still remains the same,they are after money.These games are MUCH cheaper to develop,easily 1/10th the cost,you will again,get what you pay for.

Using your AOC as an example,you have what ALL f2p games have [limited staff].This means little development,little support it is not a sign of anything good about to happen.Using the GW franchise as an example,they are a little sneakier,they take what a giant game would call a complete game ,and divide it into smaller episodes,this way they can charge 4x for one game,a very lame and sneaky approach if you ask me.

I would agree that if there was a game i enjoyed playing ,and they let me leech off other paying customers,i would probably do it,but i would also know it is not right at all and not feel  good about doing it.

 I've been known to call P2P games a scam because they would let you believe that the subscription money is necessary to maintain the game.  They're not really scams though and neither are B2P or F2P.  What you have is a situation where a company makes a game and sets a price for it.  If you don't like the price, or the conditions in which it's offered, don't buy the game or don't play the game.  It's that simple.

Whatever the business model of the game, the company is going to figure out what the expected revenue from each player is.  For a F2P game, you're not leeching if you're not buying anything.  Players playing for free can help build a community and group with people who do pay.  Nobody likes a ghost town.  Look at League of Legends.  15 million people have played their game.  A lot of people aren't going to pay anything.  But if the average revenue for player is even $1 a month (from one guy spending $10 and 9 people spending nothing), that's damn good money.

And I know you didn't like Guild Wars, but I think you're off base there (and it seems out of place to attack it in a F2P thread).  First off, again, if you didn't think it was worth your money, don't buy it.  Second, it's a B2P MMO, so it's cheaper buying the expansions than staying subbed to a P2P MMO (who probably also makes you buy the expansions).  And the B2P system let the expansions be voluntary.  They were standalone games and didn't raise the level cap, unlike WoW's which are become basically mandatory.

And finally, it's not like the games were as you say chopping up a real game and making a cash grab out of it.  The original Prophecies is a pretty big game with 54 zones and 25 missions (equivalent to dungeons).  The standalone expansions weren't quite as big, but still having 30+ zones and 20 missions (about 15 PVE and 5 PVP) each.  They also have entirely different settings (Asian or African inspired) and introduce new classes and concepts each time.  Considering how small the company was and that they put each one out within 6 months to a year, it's quite an accomplishment.

Originally posted by chryses

Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.

I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.

Few Points:

• All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost.  Either due to real life, game itself or both.

 

Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.

If we're speaking of USA,Canada or most EU countries ,15$ is less than cost of 1 book, or cost of 2-3 packs of cigarettes.Going to pub once with friends will mke you spent much more. Not to mention almost any other hobby will make you spent much much more.

Well I think it comes down to personal preference , I very much prefer to spend 15$/ month and don't have to think about item shop and it's impact on my game.

Good for you if you enjoy it , though you might get a bit suprised with costs at AoC end game , you will have to buy temporary pass to do instances and I don't know if it is even possible to unlock gold limit if you not premium. You will need more than 2 gold f2p player limit to buy better than pvp t.4 armor.

Originally posted by Wizardry

When you get a normal sub game going f2p,it is just another attempt to attract money in some form or fashion.These games will not operate at a loss,players have to pay them money,without it,the game is gone.If you are able to play for free,you are either NOT playing the full version of the game,or you are just leeching off other players money,which is not right in many ways.

The only other f2p design,which you eluded to [Korean f2p]are designed from the ground up to attract money after you start playing,the premise still remains the same,they are after money.These games are MUCH cheaper to develop,easily 1/10th the cost,you will again,get what you pay for.

Using your AOC as an example,you have what ALL f2p games have [limited staff].This means little development,little support it is not a sign of anything good about to happen.Using the GW franchise as an example,they are a little sneakier,they take what a giant game would call a complete game ,and divide it into smaller episodes,this way they can charge 4x for one game,a very lame and sneaky approach if you ask me.

I would agree that if there was a game i enjoyed playing ,and they let me leech off other paying customers,i would probably do it,but i would also know it is not right at all and not feel  good about doing it.

There is nothing not right in playing a F2P game without visiting the sales office.  Seriously I am providing company to the other players that play.  They can 1 shot me with their newly bought super gun, and that makes them happy.  If they cannot 1 shot me, they might be less tempted to buy items online.

F2P games are good for the occasional nights during travels.  In the hotel where ISP is free (included in bill, that is) or ultra cheap, and the weather is bad, online games are options to kill a long evening.  F2P fits the bill well.  Just pop in, die a few rounds to well armed players and log out.  I owe nobody anything as I provided my service as cannon fodder.

I too am a convert.  As Ive gotten older, paying a monthly fee somehow started to seem rediculous.   Unnessary.   Im nearly 30. 

Once upon a time I had no problem with it.  In fact I very much supported the subscription model.  Now I look back and ask, "Why?" 

I feel there is a shift coming as well.  Or the shift has already begun.  Which suits me fine.  I have an odd feeling that I will never sub to a game again, no matter what it is.  I just dont agree with that payment method.  Im not getting anything for my money that way except the right to play a game I already paid for.  

I might miss out on a few games.....until they go free to play.  Which most seem to be doing these days anyways.  So all is well. 

Originally posted by LisXia

Originally posted by Wizardry

When you get a normal sub game going f2p,it is just another attempt to attract money in some form or fashion.These games will not operate at a loss,players have to pay them money,without it,the game is gone.If you are able to play for free,you are either NOT playing the full version of the game,or you are just leeching off other players money,which is not right in many ways.

The only other f2p design,which you eluded to [Korean f2p]are designed from the ground up to attract money after you start playing,the premise still remains the same,they are after money.These games are MUCH cheaper to develop,easily 1/10th the cost,you will again,get what you pay for.

Using your AOC as an example,you have what ALL f2p games have [limited staff].This means little development,little support it is not a sign of anything good about to happen.Using the GW franchise as an example,they are a little sneakier,they take what a giant game would call a complete game ,and divide it into smaller episodes,this way they can charge 4x for one game,a very lame and sneaky approach if you ask me.

I would agree that if there was a game i enjoyed playing ,and they let me leech off other paying customers,i would probably do it,but i would also know it is not right at all and not feel  good about doing it.

There is nothing not right in playing a F2P game without visiting the sales office.  Seriously I am providing company to the other players that play.  They can 1 shot me with their newly bought super gun, and that makes them happy.  If they cannot 1 shot me, they might be less tempted to buy items online.

F2P games are good for the occasional nights during travels.  In the hotel where ISP is free (included in bill, that is) or ultra cheap, and the weather is bad, online games are options to kill a long evening.  F2P fits the bill well.  Just pop in, die a few rounds to well armed players and log out.  I owe nobody anything as I provided my service as cannon fodder.

Pretty much how I think about it as well, i do pay for the good f2p games and there are a couple of them but most of the time if i need my MMO fix or I just got a little time to spare I'll do download the latest f2p game and waste a couple of hours. Granted this is after having played many games and knowing the market, so after that you realize that the early levels in these games usually provide the most content although that's been changing as more and more quality f2p games come out.

Originally posted by Corehaven

I too am a convert.  As Ive gotten older, paying a monthly fee somehow started to seem rediculous.   Unnessary.   Im nearly 30. 

 

Once upon a time I had no problem with it.  In fact I very much supported the subscription model.  Now I look back and ask, "Why?" 

 

I feel there is a shift coming as well.  Or the shift has already begun.  Which suits me fine.  I have an odd feeling that I will never sub to a game again, no matter what it is.  I just dont agree with that payment method.  Im not getting anything for my money that way except the right to play a game I already paid for.  

 

I might miss out on a few games.....until they go free to play.  Which most seem to be doing these days anyways.  So all is well. 

It is difficult to judge whether a $15 monthly is necessary or not.  Rather, it boils down, to me, into a decision whether I feel like the services provided for $15.  Competition and all.

During EQ1, there is little choice, if you want to play MMO, that is about it.  CoX, DAoC and then WoW come and we have choices, good ones.  All of them cost $15, no real freebies worth considering.

Now we have freebies, we have B2P, we have options, lots, and many of these free ones worth a shot (LoTRO, how stupid was I to buy lifetime).  Suddenly we find it possible to reconsider the $15.

Now we are older, and the whole MMO experience getting less and less enthalling.  There are so much more to do and less and less time left before we hit the grave.

Game time is getting rare, games getting bland, and more and more competition for our attention.  $15 or free, games are taking up an ever lessening role in our lives, lives of many of my ex-guildies and friends.

Seriously I was a non believer and even advocate against FTP.  However I figure the world is built for a community and for players that have the time and willingness to pay for a sub then they gain from seeing a thriving pop running around. 

$15 isn't much and I am a senior manager in my field so trust me, its nothing. However I just have a problem seeing it come out of my account knowing I had only logged on for 1 hour that month. 

In a weird way it stopped me enjoying other games because when I did have a block of time I would play my subbed MMO as I felt like I needed to.  Now I stroll through AoC and Fallen Earth when it goes FTP in a couple of months, all the time happy to take a break and hit a FPS on the PS3 for a change.

Question is, will other companies be forced to go FTP because with games like AoC and FE going this way, I may never pay a sub again. 

issue will arise first!verizon,att,sprint and all the other major are sitting in meeting on closed door about what?net neutrality!againt not customer netneutrality

but corporation netneutrality.they want to get rid of the all you can eat bufet for the web in usa

among many other thing.fcc is supposed to protect citizens right and work for the good of the citizen right?

same for crtc

but the sad truth is both of those agency are making deals with the industry because they are thinking of career after they finish working at crtc and fcc

yep you got it those agency are behing corrupted by industry very easy.

check wow it was priced at the same price for years ,blizzard had to rise the price to 20$/month for what the fcc and the network corp deal will cost blizzard!

i have my doubt about the futur of gaming,cause we already cant afford the bandwith it cost to game

and they ll charge us more ?i think mmo gaming will die with the new agrement behing passed behind closed door between fcc and netwroking giant like att and all!

Looking at the titles mentioned in this thread (AOC, LotRO, FE, DDO, etc) it's understandable that most favor F2P, none of them were worth the full subscription price they were charging and as most pointed out, they were good for a few months of fun until some new content was released.

Contrast that with a quality MMO, such as EVE and I willingly paid them for 3 subs (cash money, not PLEX) for over 3 years and would do so again for another quality MMORPG.

So there is a market out there for long term, P2P subscription MMO's, the dev's just have to make a game good enough to justify the price tag.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Looking at the titles mentioned in this thread (AOC, LotRO, FE, DDO, etc) it's understandable that most favor F2P, none of them were worth the full subscription price they were charging and as most pointed out, they were good for a few months of fun until some new content was released.

Contrast that with a quality MMO, such as EVE and I willingly paid them for 3 subs (cash money, not PLEX) for over 3 years and would do so again for another quality MMORPG.

So there is a market out there for long term, P2P subscription MMO's, the dev's just have to make a game good enough to justify the price tag.

There is room for a very good P2P game to live forever, if they patch it, upgrade graphics, add content ... they can easily beat most of the new comers by sheer content and inertia of player base.

Unfortunately, EA, after killing the majority of creative solo RPG studios are coming to MMOs.  They killed Mythic, and Bioware is on the line.  If the US corporate business extends its stretch, unchecked, we would have to turn to Poland or the East for hope.

Hope not.

Originally posted by Sulaa

Originally posted by chryses

Up until about 2 years ago I hated the FTP model and this could have been based on the type's of Korean FTP MMO's I tested.

I have to say I am a total convert now and would go as far as saying that this may be the only way forward for the MMO industry.

Few Points:

• All my friends and myself included are in the 35-45 year old bracket. Love MMO's but have in the last 2 years, left on mass due to feeling that we couldn't justify the monthly cost.  Either due to real life, game itself or both.

 

Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.

 It's not even about the money really, it's about having options.  With a P2P game, you have to decide ahead of time if you want to play it for that month, or if you do cancel and then find you have a few hours one day to play, still gotta dig out the credit card for the $15 for the full month. 

It's not always just $15 either.  If you're interested in SWTOR, ArcheAge and TSW, pick one or two or start getting into $45 a month territory.  Got a wife/son/daughter who you want to play with?  Double/triple/quadruple whatever you're paying.

B2P is the model I'm putting all my support behind.  There's no pay to win, there's no holding you back unless you pay, no cash shop button or popup.  Just a game that hopes to put out expansions that you actually want to purchase to keep supporting it, yet still gives you everything you need with the initial box in case you don't like any of their new content.

So far we've all thought that P2P was necessary to get the AAA quality games, but GW2 is going to show that's not the case.  If anything, it will show that B2P is superior, because there will be more players and longer retention.  AAA games don't need the subscription to survive, they can make up for that revenue by simply selling to more players.

F2P can be ok, and I think it would be interesting to see how a AAA F2P MMO would perform.  But since nobody seems ready to make one, all we can do is embrace B2P as the new standard for AAA quality.

Originally posted by Lashley

I agree 100%. 

 

Sometimes I spend more in a month on a cash shop than i would on a sub, but its not every month and you don't feel pressured into playing to get your money's worth.

Everyone perceives value differently.

One regular price movie ticket is 9 dollars. I recently paid that to see Cowboys and Aliens. Decent movie, not great.

The running time on that movie is 112 minutes, a little under 2 hours.

So for aproximately 4 hours of entertainment, I would pay $18.00.

Average MMORPG sub is $14.95.

It's even cheaper if you sub for longer.

So to feel like I got my monies worth for a game, I'd need to play an MMORPG 4 hours during a month.

Anything after that is a bonus.

If I'm not going to play at least 4 hours in a month, I'm not going to play at all. I can't really get into an MMORPG if I log on just one hour in a month.

So for me, there's no pressure with a sub.

Either I'm playing 4 or more hours a month, and it's worth it, or I cancel the sub. Easy peasy.

I would never want to keep track of how much money I spent in a cash shop.

I'd easily pay 14.95 a month to avoid that hassle.

Originally posted by cali59

So far we've all thought that P2P was necessary to get the AAA quality games, but GW2 is going to show that's not the case.

 

Well, maybe. Maybe not. We'll have to wait on the release and see. I hope they're successful.

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Sulaa

stuff

Huh? 15$/month is hardly a cost for working adult even if you are working a low wage job.

 It's not even about the money really, it's about having options.  With a P2P game, you have to decide ahead of time if you want to play it for that month, or if you do cancel and then find you have a few hours one day to play, still gotta dig out the credit card for the $15 for the full month. 

It's not always just $15 either.  If you're interested in SWTOR, ArcheAge and TSW, pick one or two or start getting into $45 a month territory.  Got a wife/son/daughter who you want to play with?  Double/triple/quadruple whatever you're paying.

B2P is the model I'm putting all my support behind.  There's no pay to win, there's no holding you back unless you pay, no cash shop button or popup.  Just a game that hopes to put out expansions that you actually want to purchase to keep supporting it, yet still gives you everything you need with the initial box in case you don't like any of their new content.

So far we've all thought that P2P was necessary to get the AAA quality games, but GW2 is going to show that's not the case.  If anything, it will show that B2P is superior, because there will be more players and longer retention.  AAA games don't need the subscription to survive, they can make up for that revenue by simply selling to more players.

F2P can be ok, and I think it would be interesting to see how a AAA F2P MMO would perform.  But since nobody seems ready to make one, all we can do is embrace B2P as the new standard for AAA quality.

Well playing mmorpg few hours per month only kinda defeat the purpose, but still I understand that there are people like that sure. Still new single player game cost like 60$ and give you like 10-15 hours nowadays , so even if you play like 5-10 hours for 15$ it is still better. Not to mention other entertaiment - cinema? more expensive per hour. Renting dvd? Pay per view? More expensive. Going out to pub / club? More expensive.

But like I said playing few hours per month I would not even start playing mmorpg tbh. Never mind what business model it would be. Even fastest progress one , where levelling is ridiculosely fast (like Rift) few hours per month would take years to get anywhere.

For paying multiple 15$ , well it is like that with anything. You know if you want to have let's say 3 cable TV's because every cable have some exclusive channel you're interested in you also have to choose or pay for all of them.

Besides you said that you don't have much time to play yet you want to play 3 mmorpg's at same time?! Kinda inconsisten I would say.

As for wife/children. Well I will not dig into details that is not my territory , in my case wife also mean second income , and kids can play with their allowance. But I respect that others may have difrent opinion.

But tbh I would prefer my kid to play P2P game instead of F2P one when he/she can spent god know how much in item store.

You say games dont need subscription they need to sell box to more players.

Well there is finite number of players , and many mmorpg's. I don't think most mmorpg's could sell as much boxes as GW1, not to mention that part of why GW sell that much is because they are exception. Besides GW1 was not mmorpg.

GW2 - I agree it looks promising, but I will not declare it succesful before it is released. I will have to see it working for myself, see if they are able to sustain themselves for a longer time with item shop only with cosmetics , because if they start selling advantage in item shop it is not game for me.

Well anyway concluding. I understand that there are people that want to be able to play multiple mmorpg's at same time , hop between one and other ,etc  I don't see sense in it but who I am to judge?

Still F2P business model ruins experience for me. Okay they are free to start playing, but sooner or later you hit brick wall. There is always a moment (and I tried few f2p games) when you either have to start paying quite a bit or you are cannon fodder in any PvP , undercapped in PvE or /and you face horrible grind.

F2P game is sometimes nice at low-maybe medium levels , where you frequently dont have to look at item shop but after that if you want to stay for longer , it is horrible and expensive.

If you want to participate in things like raids, etc you have to pay even more.

Not to even mention horrid game focus, content is wrapped around item shop , whole mechanics are frequently shifted or changed in order to make item store sell more. Just this feeling itself that in any moment game might change and I will have to pay in item shop to stay 'competetive' or to avoid idiotic grind make me log out.

I am usually playing 1 mmorpg at any given time (currently none) , I am looking for a long commitment game which I will play for long months or longer , item shops ruin my experience tbh. I just don't want money to have impact on a game I am playing. Skill , time , planning? Sure. Money. No thanks.

I was thinking alot of time about that, I did even try f2p games , but I realized that there it is just not possible for me to play f2p game. There is no middel ground for me , freemium model is as bad as f2p , possibly even worse tbh (yes yes I played Lotro I was lifetime subscriber even - no I don't like new model Yes I tried many months of playing ).

So for me I very much prefer to just pay 15$ / month and don't have to think about anything more than expansion pack once every 1,5 years. (yeah I know some p2p games sell mounts for cash , yes I hate it, no I did not buy it even once, and I try to avoid games that do that).

I understand your argumments though unfrotunetally they don't seem compelling for me as I don't share your reasons why you don't like subscription.

I simply check out games on trials , they choose one game and stick to it. Don't even have time to play more mmorpg than one.

I will look on GW2 as it seems interesting though I don't agree that multiple AAA games would be able to sustain themselves in same time on B2P model , well unless they start having item shops like in F2P games but then they would not be B2P anymore would they? One game ? two games? maybe , guess we will see with GW2. More? don't think so.

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Not sure if somebody said this yet, but f2p usually come with item shop that is pay to win. This may not be a big deal PvE games, but in PvP games its a deal breaker. How would dark fall and Warhammer function as a f2p??

I agree that in PvP games it would be worse , but while some may not agree or understand item shop  in purely PvE game is also deal breaker for me.

Lots of interesting posts :)

I have been thinking about this a lot more over the past week as I have been playing AoC and enjoying it all over again for free.

The big issue for MMO's out there is population.  It tends to be the nail in the coffin when the tides turn and people start to leave you can almost sense it like a looming tidal wave.  You log on one day and you realise half your guild hasn't logged on for 2 weeks. Then a week later you are the only person left and usually running the once glorious guild.  The old saying 'who farted' comes to mind. Really feels like that. 

When you look at demographics, most people who can afford to pay a sub comfortably are going to be mid 20's up.  Unfortunately this also means that most will have a partner, kids, heavy job etc etc.  So even though I would gladly pay a sub to play a good MMO. I can't justify it in my situation.  So there is a massive hardcore fanbase out there that if done right, a FTP model would be hugely successful and bring thousands of players into the game.  AoC for example feels like it just came out with the amount of pop running around.  I think they recently announced that they have hit 2 million players??

For the record I do hate shops that have uber items for sale.  I would prefer a FTP model that allows a non premium player the option to purchase access to maps, dungeons etc. (and possibly not able to access the top tier of items)  That way a busy player can purchase segments of the game when they have time.  

All uber items and rewards must be earnt in my book.

(and yes I did sub to EvE for 6 years.  It was worth it)