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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is Raiding so unpopular to the MMO Community?

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  Uproar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/19/04
Posts: 418

I was once Tailrot, Uproar, Bandage, Thus(tin) Hammered, Rock, and so many more. Aye gamerest.

7/10/11 10:01:47 AM#121
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

Raiding is both by intent and as suffered non-immersive.  It is a forced system of manipulation that rips the player out of the fantasy.  Doesn't matter the story that's force fed you to explain the objective(s); it's always artificial.  It's boring.  It's tedius.  It's underwhelming in its entirity.  It's mundane, anti-heroic even.  It is the stunted existance after youth.  It's the long cold undeath.  The imaginings of a mad, twisted, S&M freak.  It's hated; It's unknowable dribble.  It's best forsaken, it's best cast aside in favor of the next alt, until that character too dies from the foregown dismal horizon that advances upon a character and a game like a fungus on your favorite playset.  It's hideous; it's sad.  It's tragic.  I move on endlessly hoping to never meet the fate again, and know I'll always be disappointed.  Maybe GW2 is the golden light, the savior, the new eden.  We can still at least hope -- the glorious words proclaiming the absence of evil have been heard by this one.  I kneel in thanksgiving and pray for salivation.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2044

7/10/11 10:10:15 AM#122
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?
 

I think you're confusing the opinions of an extremely small vocal minority that you've been exposed to on this site with a roaring majority.  The truth is gaming forums are comprised of a very tiny, passionate subset of gamers who tend to have a very different perspective than the average gamer out there.  They come here to commiserate, reminisce, rant, and even sometimes express praise, but the views expressed on forums such as these simply cannot be considered representative of the MMO community as a whole.  

 

I happen to be extremely excited for GW2, but I'd venture to guess that upwards of 95% of MMO players have never heard of the title yet.  I think Anet is doing an incredible job advertising their product thus far, but in the end the information they release is only viewed by a small minority of players who seek out info on promising upcoming MMOs.  The rest relies on word-of-mouth, which plays a somewhat small role in the hype game prior to release and a much larger role in the review game after release.  

  sirphobos

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 603

7/10/11 10:21:46 AM#123

I like raiding, but I feel developers are getting lazy and need to be a little more creative with their raid encounters.

Every raid in modern games basically amounts to clear some trash, memorize boss mechanics, stick a tank on boss, handle adds, stay out of AOEs, kill boss before enrage timer goes off, collect loot.

I feel there's a lot developers could do with raid encounters to make them more exciting and less tedious, they just have to be a little more creative.

  aslan132

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 305

7/10/11 10:26:25 AM#124

Actually i find the whole idea of alienating an entire playstyle to be disconcerting. There are many different playstyles ranging from solo, to small groups, up to large scale raids, and even PvE and PvP playstyles differ. Alienating even one drastically lowers the population of your game.

From a raiders perspective, im very disappointed. I have been raiding hardcore in multiple MMOs for the last decade. I have seen it anywhere from 10-12 man up to 40. I have never felt 'drawn out' from the immersion. Quite the contrary, most raids are designed to enhance the lore and stories being told. And when you only solo, quest or do smaller dungeons you never actually see the full story. Take EQ2 for example. Each expansion tells a very elaborate story. Theres always a very prominent antagonist directly tied to the lore. In dungeon questing you see how this antagonist is involved in the world, what they are trying to accomplish, but in raids, you get to actually go head-to-head as it were to directly be involved in stopping them. If you dont raid, you never see the whole story.

In MMOs, raiding is a vital part of storytelling. You dont want to see 5 people going after a Godking, or Lich King, or King of any type. You want to tackle that with as many friends as the game allows. Sure theres horror stories about wiping repeatedly after hours of preparation, but lets face it, its a God you are facing. And if you are in a guild with devoted like minded people, you never have to pick up people to fill slots. In 7 years of raiding end game in EQ2, i have never filled a spot with some random person.

In summary, yes raiding is vital to an MMO. No raiding isnt for everyone. But then again, not everyone likes being ganked while harvesting (PvP), or spend hours reading thier game (quests). Removing any one of those playstyle limits your population. And even the players that like what you offer will start to leave if the population doesnt support THIER playstyle. Unfortunately this news of no raid dungeons has turned me off to GW2. I was looking forward to the new game, many features drew my attention, but unless there are raids put into it by release, i WONT be buying or playing. Sorry.

  Southpaw.Gamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/08
Posts: 578

Full Sail University - Game Design Student

7/10/11 10:30:20 AM#125

When speaking in regards to raids what I don't like about them (In particular PvE) it's the fact that once a group beats the raid and knows how it's just a matter of repeating the process.  I get bored if I know what to expect and what to do when.

 

Just give me a sandbox PvP game, at leat in there all you know to expect is the unexpected.  

Full Sail University - Game Design

  aslan132

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 305

7/10/11 10:39:07 AM#126
Originally posted by sirphobos

I like raiding, but I feel developers are getting lazy and need to be a little more creative with their raid encounters.

Every raid in modern games basically amounts to clear some trash, memorize boss mechanics, stick a tank on boss, handle adds, stay out of AOEs, kill boss before enrage timer goes off, collect loot.

I feel there's a lot developers could do with raid encounters to make them more exciting and less tedious, they just have to be a little more creative.

 This confuses me. In a group dungeon you have 5-6 players. One tank, a healer (maybe 2), support and dps. Which part of your statement above about raid encounters doesnt apply to groups? Every single group encounter you have one tank. That one tank stands in a corner while everyone else either heals or hurles fireballs/arrows at him. In small groups its impossible to break away from that mechanic because of the limited manpower.

In raid encounters, you can have up to 4 tanks, 8 healers, lots of support and a wide variety of dpsers. Many raid encounters take advantage of the large number, and will force multiple tanks to swap in and out, other groups can run off and pull switches or click statues, or even split the raid into 2 separate groups to fight mirror images of the same battle. No where in group play can that EVER happen. Theres just not enough players involved. And if you only have 5 people in a group who wants 2 tanks?

It appearant who actually raids and who doesnt by the comments being made. Anyone who thinks the mechanics are more bland than a small group encounter has never actually been in a raid. I agree with the comments such as its annoying or frustrating to wipe for 4 hours a night, and even the ones about filling needed slots with noob players. But NEVER can it be said its not more involved and in need an actaul strategy to take down. Sure you only have to memorize the boss mechanics, but lets be serious, thats the exact same thing for every single boss, in every single game, both MMO and not. You think the boss at the end of a single player console game is gonna be any different the next time you play through? Once you learn that you have to jump over his hammer swing, run in a counter clockwise circle away from his energy weapon, then double jump onto his back to slash his neck, its gonna feel repeatative every time you fight that boss. Be real people.

  Alanthus

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 119

7/10/11 10:46:01 AM#127
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

Wouldn't say it's unpopular, the biggest games out there are focused on raiding and people voting with their wallets and game time trumps forums any day. That said high end raid content = scheduled play, if you like your leisure activities to be carefully planned and you set up your tee times or buy tickets for events etc. weeks in advance, get a baby sitter, message your wife or whatever that you'll be busy at raiding time slots and it doesn't really matter what she's wearing she better not disturb you then raiding is great. If you're more into picking up the game when you feel like playing, taking a stroll on the beach just because you're in the mood and your'e fine with the wife interrupting your game play suggesting there are more interesting activities you could be involved in you likely want the games you play to be less focused on raiding and much more on casual content (or at least content requiring shorter contiguous sessions.)

  korndog22

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/07
Posts: 63

7/10/11 11:00:22 AM#128

Well as a raider if it isn't for you.welllll don't doit.If I had to guess I would say that more people who play MMO's like to raid than don't.Some people say , well  "Why can't I get the top gear if I don't raid." The answer is simple.You don't need the top gear to progress on if you don't raid.If you are just playing for the social aspect and just to do what ever it is you like, then gear really has no affect on you (to an extenent).No one forces you to raid.You can do what ever you want .But Raiding being unpopular is only a thought of Forum dwellers.Cuz the ones who spend there time actually in game realize that if they don't want to raid ...They don't have to.And are ingame doing other things that brings them joy.Some of us like the extremely challenging content in some games that gives us a sense of accomplishment when we work our asses off to beat a boss that is a tough fight.Others don't.

 

Unfortunately this thought of GW2 not having Raids, isa Huge turn off for me.I am gonna try it still .But I hope they give us Raiders some good raid content.Which i bet they ultimately will.If Not Make the so called Open world Bosses an extreme challenge requiring 40+ people to work together to take down.If its too cupcake they are gonna lose a good portion of there player base pretty fast.The more i read about GW2 the less I find myself wanting to try it.But none the less , I will give it a shot just to see if lives up to its hype.

  Vidir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

7/10/11 11:17:33 AM#129
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

 Unfortunatly not enough people dislike raiding, most game's endgame are raid based.

Raids can be very fun with a group of people but slightes change to that group and raid is no more fun.

I would like to see more small group and solo endgame content, using the multiplayer part of the game for trading chatting and show up the nice items you fond on your last adventure,maybe building towns and so on.I have had may share of raidings.

  angerbeaver

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/15/06
Posts: 645

Games Played:Ultima OnlineRappelzLOTROWoWGWGW2SWTOR

7/10/11 11:24:02 AM#130

Most likely said, but time. From my experiences raids are hours long, and far worse when 1) brand new or 2) bad group. I've been in short raids which are great (unless you're hard pressed to find enough people, then time plays a factor again).

For me it was always a time issue.

kryles Xfire Miniprofile
  TGSOL

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/11
Posts: 279

7/10/11 11:50:47 AM#131

The best analogy I can come up with is to compare it to an RTS. Imagine you go to play Starcraft online only to find that every single person you play against uses the exact same race and the exact same strategy every single time, and you only have one map available to you. Anyone who's played an RTS knows how god aweful boring that would be in a very short period of time. If your enemies strategy involved an early game Zerg rush, it might catch you off guard if it's your first time playing, but in no time flat you'd counter it, and every game from then on would involve you picking the same race and building the same buildings and units and doing the exact same thing every single time to counter their predictable actions, which defeat the entire purpose of playing the game. No thought, no skill, just going through a particular set of motions to achieve victory.

 

This is how raids are now. The first time you do it, it's interesting. Then every time after, it's the EXACT same thing. The number of mobs is the same, and their all in the same position, with the same stats and the same skills and strategies. No variation, no "on-the-fly" thinking or strategy adjustments required, just rote memorization.

  Zeus.CM

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1797

www.croatian-maniacs.com

7/10/11 11:55:39 AM#132

The main problems about raiding is that it's hard to find a good group or any group at all, some raids are just boring (clear your way trough dozens of mobs until you get to the boss) and also people get really angry at any mistake you make during raiding (specially if healer or tank dies)...

gw2 will eliminate all this problems, just saying...

  Sarla

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/06
Posts: 26

7/10/11 12:00:04 PM#133

Personally I just avoid games that have many raids in them

  psyclum

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/10
Posts: 800

7/10/11 12:08:27 PM#134
Originally posted by just1opinion

Here lies the problem....you couldn't get 60+ players to cooperate to do ANYthing these days. Some of us WERE around "back in the day," but that doesn't mean that modern raids don't have their own set of challenges. You just TRY to get 25 people to cooperate now and you'll see WHY there are no more 60+ player raids.

hence the "post WoW generation" term is coined:D  Human evolution has not changed THAT drasticly in the last 11 years:D  

those of us who LEARNED to cooperate isnt dead yet:)  and the newer generation of gamers CAN learn to cooperate.  

the fault is the content that is being designed not the human ability to cooperate. 

it WASN'T easy to organize 72 people into a raid.  god forbid if you were on Rallos Zek server killing the sleeper, which numbered well over 200 players:D  all things considered that was one of the pinnacle moments in MMO history.  on THE most hostile server(full fledge open PVP server), raiding the hardest mob ever in a game, that is KNOWN to be the hardest raiding MMO in history(also the game that created the whole concept of raiding).  3 RIVAL guilds came together to COOPERATE in the one epic fight that no other can in a live server.  to understand the difficulty of this accomplishment, the CLERIC assigned to heal the tanks CAN kill the tank if they hit the wrong button:D  it was OPEN PVP server:D  ANY AE dmg a wizzy cast WILL damage the the whole raid:D

so... excuse me when i laugh at what you claim as an impossible task of getting 25 people to work together to kill a mediocer mob when EQ1 have accomplished raids 10 times the size in an environment that is at least 10 times the difficulty:D

  Mothanos

Elite Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1849

7/10/11 12:15:28 PM#135

Hmm there was a time when i liked raiding, but it was insane to keep up with the guild i was in at that time.

 

Requirements before stepping into a raid.

1.Pots

2.Flasks

3.Food buffs

4.all gear enchanted

5.All gear socketed

Now these are just normal requirements when you are doing hard contend.

But now we gonne take a look at the shedules of raid times.

 

Raid stats at 20:00 ends on 00:00

3 or 5 days a week

 

Not doing so can mean no gearing up and end up falling behind and getting guild kicked.

Sure you got casual playing but thats even worse in my opinion.

Nothing worse then wanting to raid and half the guild not comming online as they dont feel ike raiding that night.

 

Iam done with strict pve raiding mmo's where you need to accept a second job or being outgeared by a mile if you dont.

 

Anet is going to push out contend without raiding and i love them for it.

Gone are the days of hardcore versus casuals :)

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/10/11 12:23:38 PM#136


Originally posted by psyclum


Originally posted by just1opinion

Here lies the problem....you couldn't get 60+ players to cooperate to do ANYthing these days. Some of us WERE around "back in the day," but that doesn't mean that modern raids don't have their own set of challenges. You just TRY to get 25 people to cooperate now and you'll see WHY there are no more 60+ player raids.


hence the "post WoW generation" term is coined:D  Human evolution has not changed THAT drasticly in the last 11 years:D  
those of us who LEARNED to cooperate isnt dead yet:)  and the newer generation of gamers CAN learn to cooperate.  
the fault is the content that is being designed not the human ability to cooperate. 
it WASN'T easy to organize 72 people into a raid.  god forbid if you were on Rallos Zek server killing the sleeper, which numbered well over 200 players:D  all things considered that was one of the pinnacle moments in MMO history.  on THE most hostile server(full fledge open PVP server), raiding the hardest mob ever in a game, that is KNOWN to be the hardest raiding MMO in history(also the game that created the whole concept of raiding).  3 RIVAL guilds came together to COOPERATE in the one epic fight that no other can in a live server.  to understand the difficulty of this accomplishment, the CLERIC assigned to heal the tanks CAN kill the tank if they hit the wrong button:D  it was OPEN PVP server:D  ANY AE dmg a wizzy cast WILL damage the the whole raid:D
so... excuse me when i laugh at what you claim as an impossible task of getting 25 people to work together to kill a mediocer mob when EQ1 have accomplished raids 10 times the size in an environment that is at least 10 times the difficulty:D



There is no "fault", as if somebody deliberately killed raiding. A large influx of new players who didn't want to spend a half hour or an hour waiting for people to get their stuff together to get into a raid, much less actually raid joined the games. These people, with money in their pockets let it be known that they wanted to play the game, not sit around waiting on other people so they could play the game. The developers listened. At the same time, developers kept the idea of tiered content and 'elite' gear or status via raiding. It's not really a mystery.

Raiding is fun when you can actually raid. Mostly I remember sitting around waiting for other people so I could raid.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  psyclum

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/10
Posts: 800

7/10/11 12:28:05 PM#137
Originally posted by Mothanos

3 or 5 days a week

pfff weak:D   real guilds raid 6 days a week and you need at least 65% raid attendance to stay in the guild:D  only time you catch a break is when new expansion comes out and you got 1 month to max your lvl/AA's :D

  DrWookie

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 248

7/10/11 12:29:29 PM#138

I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, and I"ll be honest and say I haven't read all the posts on this thread...

For me it isn't the "raid" that I don't like. I'm fine with a dungeon that requires 20 people to fight a truly "epic" enemy. What has always bugged me about "endgame raids" in MMOs, and which is the primary reason why I have yet to really find an MMO that I've stuck with once I hit the cap, is that the game is designed around doing thoes same "epic" dungeons dozens of times.

I'm fine with raids. I've seen some that are really cool. But once I do it once and complete it I have no desire to repeat the content. It seems silly....On a different character maybe...but just like any quest...if I've already completed the objective I dont' really want to have to go do it again. If I'm tasked with killing a boss and I do so, why should I have to go back to kill him again?

The design of MMOs around repeating the same dungeons over and over again to get gear to then complete a different dungeon over and over again is more problem. Not the dungeons themselves, but their use as an "easy" endgame mechanic and wants us to continually repeat content over and over again chasing some "carrot on a stick" that we never quite reach.

  Cik_Asalin

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/04
Posts: 3091

7/10/11 12:30:57 PM#139
Originally posted by psyclum
Originally posted by Mothanos

3 or 5 days a week

pfff weak:D   real guilds raid 6 days a week and you need at least 65% raid attendance to stay in the guild:D  only time you catch a break is when new expansion comes out and you got 1 month to max your lvl/AA's :D

And it replaces your real-life job, but dont get paid for it, though some governments support these folks with welfare.

  psyclum

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/10
Posts: 800

7/10/11 12:31:25 PM#140
Originally posted by lizardbones

Raiding is fun when you can actually raid. Mostly I remember sitting around waiting for other people so I could raid.

 

aye, tis the cost of enjoyable raids.   the more "expensive" the raid is(time wise) the sweeter the victory when you finally beat the encounter:)

kinda like the concept of no pain, no gain:D

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