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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is Raiding so unpopular to the MMO Community?

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319 posts found
  Kwansei

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 336

7/10/11 12:05:26 AM#61
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

You have no real emperical evidence here and cannot suggest a generalizable trend... But meh.

  khamul787

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/11
Posts: 187

7/10/11 12:06:24 AM#62
Originally posted by prizm1234
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?


I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

 

because of the asstard mouthbreathers you are forced to raid with

you know who i am talking about, the loud obnoxious fuckwits who are always screaming in vent, or who always talk down to people, or who make raiding the sole focus of their miserable lives

  Kwansei

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 336

7/10/11 12:08:24 AM#63

Also I still want to see an MMO somehow incorperate asychronous grouping. Would be intersting to see a "raid" which could be done over a few days by 3-4 different groups.

  djvapid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 82

7/10/11 12:28:03 AM#64

Raiding is a time sink.  You can say all games are time sinks - but it's what you get out of it that makes the difference.  For example, I believe raiding is a time sink because I don't feel like I get anything out of it.  However, I love exploring new areas and old ones alike which someone who enjoys raiding might not appreciate as much as me.

 

Raiding is unpopular, I believe, because you're starting to see more gamers who are your regular, everyday people with lives and jobs which do not coexist very well with the hardcore standards you have to meet in order to raid effectively.

 

This means that those of us who used to raid because we were teenagers and it didn't matter what we threw our time away in as long as our homework was finished before the following day are growing up and putting gaming second to reality, while MMOs in general gradually begin to cater to more casual gamers to attract a new fanbase that may value reality more than a game as well as hold onto their old fanbase that is starting to grow up and get lives.

 

The loudest voices in support of the hardcore standards necessary to meet in order to successfully raid (and effectively with something to show for it) are usually the younger generation gamers who don't have anything better to do - and the sweaty fat adults that still live in their parent's basement and work at McDonalds to meet the 15 dollars a month subscription fee.

 

There will always be a consumer who will want hardcore raiding and such.  There will always be a developer who will meet that customer base.  You just won't see it as often anymore with the mainstream developers because the most solid business plan is one that caters to the casual gamer.  That's how World of Warcraft has done so well - an increasingly smooth and headache free gameplay process and a genius marketing team.  

 

If you want to stay true to your hardcore values (such as real PvP death consequences and raiding hours on end everyday for a month for an item) I recommend you keep your eyes out for the second-rate developing teams coming out with the less known themes.   I'd recommend some if I knew any off the top of my head, but I gave up my support of hardcore difficulty and grindy games when I discovered there was a world outside of my bedroom and computer screen.  (Which didn't happen till I was passed 22 years old, so there you go.)

 

At 29, I'm the perfect example of what I am talking about.  Once upon a time, I loved those oldschool games.  Organizing and meeting up with the guild for hours and endless hours at a time.  Dieing and losing gold/gear.  Getting corpse camped.  All that jazz.  But when I finally started thinking about a career and stuff, I evolved into a more casual gamer. 

 

To sum things up, there is room for raiding in all games because there will always be a consumer base who is interested in it.  So expect most games to include atleast something to that extent.  But mark my words, as it has already begun: gradually over the years MMOs are getting easier in comparison to how it used to be and it will continue to do so as the pool of gamers grows larger and larger. 

 

It's not that it's unpopular - raiding, that is.  It's just that people don't want to work that hard or long anymore.  They're starting to recognize the fact that it's a game and not a career.  And since that attitude is the majority of voices to what developers are hearing and listening to, they are catering toward that standard. 

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

7/10/11 12:37:25 AM#65

For me there are multiple reasons coming together.

A) It's stress. I need to play lots of attention a long time, I need a long time following other people's commands, and it just feels not so cool.

B) Loot & reward are usually given in ways I feel I waste my time for nothing. It's too much of a hassle.

C) I hate it that in many MMOs the best gear is from raids, so that one personal preferrence is higher rated, and when I don't like raids, I am second best equipped only.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Murashu

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1397

7/10/11 12:47:06 AM#66

I believe the majority of people like the concept of raiding. I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and never met anyone in game that said they disliked raiding. Some people do not have the time for it. Some do not like that a raid may take 40 people to complete but only 3 items drop. And there is a whole slew of people who think raiding is too hard and spend hours whining about it on the WoW forums :) but they still do it. There are a lot of people who don't want to deal with the drama of loot, or being told they need to change their spell rotation to increase their DPS or that they just aren't prepared for a certain raid so someone else will take their spot. Some people are scared to make mistakes in front of a large group of people especially strangers.

 

There are a ton of different factors that turn people away from raiding, and normally it is not the raiding they dislike, just all the little stresses we put on ourselves.

www.agonysend.org

  psyclum

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/10
Posts: 800

7/10/11 12:51:02 AM#67
Originally posted by Kwansei

Also I still want to see an MMO somehow incorperate asychronous grouping. Would be intersting to see a "raid" which could be done over a few days by 3-4 different groups.

interesting concept, however "hinged" type of quest tend to not work cuz if 1 part of the quest isnt done, nobody gets the end reward:D   besides there is no instant gratification with this concept so it's likely not going to be popular

  User Deleted
7/10/11 1:26:48 AM#68
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

"I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more."

For me: the first big MMORPG I played was WoW. There I got very well acquainted with raiding. As the years went on I grew tired of it and one day I just "snapped out of it".

Why am I running an instance, to get loot, to get to the next instance? For the story? It wasn't that interesting to begin with.

And what's the use if I had to research and memorize the stupid fights beforehand? It felt like a job, more than anything else.

I was on a rat wheel and I just can't stomach it for any prolonged periods of time anymore.

 

"Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?"

Not in its current incarnation. To me it doesn't promote true community sense and unity. It's all about the pixels.

 

"Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?'

I wouldn't care how big/small, where and how as long as it's meaningful and not supportive of elite behaviour.

  Celcius

Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 929

7/10/11 1:32:43 AM#69
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I noticed the mmo community for some reason cheered Anet on, when they announced no Raid Dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Well I want to ask. Why is Raiding so unpopular now days to the MMORPG community?

Isnt Raiding, a Massively Multiplayer element of PvE combat?

Would you rather future MMO to be balanced for 1v1 PvE rather than 1v20+?

I want to know why the community doesnt like Raiding any more.

Note:
Wasnt calling out Guild Wars 2, that was simply an example.

People like raiding obviously because the most popular MMOs are based upon it now a days. The reason people would get excited about the prospect of no raiding is that it is innovative and different..as well as allows a different approach to end game content. I do not really feel like GW2 "won't" have raiding though. Sure, they don't have lockout timers ect, but when that big bad final boss of a dynamic event comes out after a few different ones chain to it...people will flock to it. The essence of that is what will be the "raiding" in GW2. If I had to guess, bosses in dynamic events would involve similar mechanics to some of the bosses you see in raids today. 

There is a key difference here though. In GW2 you can just be walking through and "oh hey a dragon!" and join right in. That is the major draw to GW2's take on bosses which would be considered raids in other games. I don't think it is that people don't want big bad epic raid encounters, they just want them to be challenging and EASILY ACCESSIBLE. Thats the key word there. The problem with raids is that most have a pretty high bar to entry in both time and gear.

  User Deleted
7/10/11 1:36:57 AM#70

Because all MMOs (that I've played at least) are centrally driven by the concept of progress addiction. When you hit level cap, the only thing developers can think of to keep you in the game is a new 'winter collection' of purple gear that can only be obtained through 5 hours in a 10+ player instance being shouted at by someone who's fifteeen years younger than you with a high pitched voice, a fluffy partial moustache and a Napoleon complex. Upgrade to a new gear tier every few months with better stats, bigger shoulderpads and bingo, you have them by the balls. This format has been going on such a long time that no one would dream of breaking the cycle and providing some other form of challenge to keep people in the game.

Personally, I hate it and I think that, far from being a logical, heavily marketed understanding that this is what players want, it's pure laziness on the part of developers to try and come up with a new format to keep people in the game. The only thing I can't quite figure out is what exactly  do you provide to keep people interested long after level cap? 

Some ideas might include:

1) Well implemented open world pvp - hasn't been done well in an MMO so far as far as I've seen, Warhammer Online was about 10% of what this format could be and it was pretty good. Not enough variety though and always fell back to purple gear tiers.

2) Storyline-based class quest content that takes ages to complete and is updated regularly - and I dont mean collecting 20,000 boar skins or farming reputation by killing gazelles for 200 hours.  

  pierth

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1515

7/10/11 1:49:30 AM#71

Many good responses in this thread. Personally, I dislike raiding for many of the same reasons that have been stated but also because I've already done that to death.

 

After spending a lot of time endgame raiding in WoW I've found that of all the elements of MMORPGs I've encountered it is my least favorite aspect (even further down the list than maxing out meaningless crafting skills and selling items via trade chats) so I simply choose to opt out now. Unfortunately this leaves me very, very little in the way of progression at endgame so my game turnover rate has gone up quite a lot since I left WoW.

  A.Blackloch

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 836

"Choke on the smoke from my quill."

7/10/11 2:02:12 AM#72
Originally posted by negacrowbar

If you have never raided in WOW, then you wouldn't understand.

If you have ever raided in WOW, then you wouldn't have asked this question.

I don't know how raiding used to be, but raiding today can be a big waste of time if you are not a dedicated hardcore player with a solid guild with people who have a lot, and I do mean a lot of free time on their hands.

First issue is having the right gear. To do most raids these days (in WOW) you need the proper gear to get in if you dont plan on doing some serious wiping. Sure, you can pick up a PUG, but unless you have a crap load of gold to repair armor every hour and the patience of a priest, this is a futile gesture. Getting the proper gear can take up a whole bunch of your time, especially if you have to to PUG dungeons.

The second is the ANNOYING COMMITMENT TO WAITING. Yes, you have to be committed to doing nothing every night for hours. For example:

Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....

YOU WIPE.

Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.

By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.

He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.

Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.

That's why I hate raiding.

Lol, poor guy! :D But yeah, I have similar reasons as the scenery you painted here. :)

  midmagic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 617

7/10/11 2:05:02 AM#73

I love raiding. But the forced repetition brought on by "tiered" content that made me quit raiding. I'd much rather have a choice in what I'm going to do then be "told" that I must raid boss X 50 times to outfit the guild so we can kill boss Y 50 times to outfit the guild for boss Z and so on.

Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  GrumpyJester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 96

7/10/11 2:18:13 AM#74

Raiding content (or perhaps endgame-content in general) needs to keep players busy, resulting in some unfortunate characteristics.

 

One of them is that it has to be hard. And because it is hard, players need to play as efficienctly as possible, revealing the ugly and boring nature of MMORPG mechanics: that wacky hybrid spec you've been having so much fun with just isn't acceptable anymore.

 

They need to take up a lot of time, you can't have people finishing your endgame content in under an hour. As a result, the schedule becomes more restrictive...you're no longer free to play whenever you just happen to have the time, you need to commit X hours per week or you'll never finish the raid.

 

It has to be repeatable. Better known as grindy. Developers will make sure you'll never get everything you want out of an endgame instance in just one run. Or ten.

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

7/10/11 2:28:54 AM#75
Originally posted by GrumpyJester

Raiding content (or perhaps endgame-content in general) needs to keep players busy, resulting in some unfortunate characteristics.

 

One of them is that it has to be hard. And because it is hard, players need to play as efficienctly as possible, revealing the ugly and boring nature of MMORPG mechanics: that wacky hybrid spec you've been having so much fun with just isn't acceptable anymore.

 

They need to take up a lot of time, you can't have people finishing your endgame content in under an hour. As a result, the schedule becomes more restrictive...you're no longer free to play whenever you just happen to have the time, you need to commit X hours per week or you'll never finish the raid.

 

It has to be repeatable. Better known as grindy. Developers will make sure you'll never get everything you want out of an endgame instance in just one run. Or ten.

And it has to be unfun. Otherwise, people would hope and dream and expect things again from MMO developers.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  User Deleted
7/10/11 2:29:04 AM#76
Originally posted by MMOExposed

So was it a good idea for Anet to leave out Raid Dungeons as a feature for GW2?

 

If they have other endgame systems available, that's good.  MMOs need diversity at endgame.

 

I'm not thinking eliminate raiding completely.  Many like it.  I'm just not one of them, nor am I alone in feeling the way I do.

  psyclum

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/10
Posts: 800

7/10/11 3:18:01 AM#77

it's amusing to see people who admit to being in a "raiding guild" in WoW and thinks it's hardcore:D   whats the avg raid size of WoW these days?  10 people? with biggest raids being 20 people?:D   do WoW even make 40 man raids anymore?

how do people even qualify those numbers as being "raids" is really the issue here.   back in the day, a 24 to 48man raid is just a pickup raid or something to do while you wait for the real raid to start:D  a real raid doesnt even start till you going into the 60+ people range:D   the "raids" of today's mmo are of such small size that there is no way the developer/designers can include enough complication and stress to push the players. 

the REALLY complicated raids REQUIRE a large number of players because the "raid" would actually need to split into sub raids at different parts of the script.  these days, the "sub raid" is consist of like 1 or 2 people:D  whereas the old raids NEEDED a few "balanced groups" to tackle each sub raid while the main tank and cleric crew keeps the boss busy.  heck in one of the anguish raids(Jelvan) in EQ1 you have to split the raids into 3 equal sized balanced sub raids with each side while not killing the sub boss faster then any other side. (within 5% of eachother)   EACH side had over 20 players in it and we all had to coordinate with the raid leader to make sure we arent killing "too fast" :D   each side had "specialists" that really cant be transfered easily to another side(since their skills are fairly useless in other sides) even if 1 side is suffering.  so if 1 side collapse, it's time to drag corpses:D

the higher the number of raiders, the more complicated a raid script can become.  small raids are limited to what CAN be brought to the raid, hence the complexity of the script is limited to the resources that CAN be brought into the raid.

i'm not saying WoW doesnt have well written raids.  i'm just saying it's only a watered down versions of what it CAN be. 

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1882

7/10/11 3:24:50 AM#78

Because it's the ultimate hamster wheel. Pointless, monotonous and too little reward for the effort except for the lucky one or two out of the forty who were suckered into playing that crappy kind of content.

  kishe

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 1947

firefighter lvl90

7/10/11 3:26:24 AM#79

Because raiding these days are about "Spend 5 hours grinding on trash mobs to get to enlargened version of the trash mob that takes 3 hours to kill."

 

Call me when raid bosses difficulty is based on something else than ridiculous amount of HP and some "special" attack that takes 15 seconds to figure out.

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5022

7/10/11 3:36:15 AM#80

Raiding is far from unpopular, its kept EQ1 alive for quite a few years now, and is widely regarded as the primary focus of most other fantasy based MMO's.... so what will a GW2 have instead of raiding... PvP can be popular, but not widely popular, so that isnt a replacement, so the game must have some PVE content for the 'masses' even if its 'raiding' by another name..  the games longevity will suffer otherwise..  too often now we're seeing MMO's reduce group sizes to ridiculously small numbers, we need to see more games cater to group sizes of 20+  even GW2's WvW PvP would be a waste of time if it was limited to a group of 4 - 6 vs the same kinds of numbers.. its the same with PVE really.. or else why bother calling a game a MMO...

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