Originally posted by Borick

Originally posted by zethcarn

It's a risk vs. reward thing.  You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you?  As for the value of the gear?  They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.  

 

Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?

The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.

So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?

I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do.  It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game.  Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.

Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game.  Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?

I don't think raiding is bad per se

but i hate when thats all a game has to do is raid.. if the only relevent *end game* event is defeat uber dragon / orc / pixie fairy princess (?) in a dugeon with 20+ people... it gets boring doing it repeatedly.

I like adventure... doing the same raid twice a week in a process then moving on to the next raid kind of destroys end game for me..

I don't like games to be formulaic.. i like spontaneity and suspense.

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by Borick

Originally posted by zethcarn

It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so).  You have your playstyle and I have mine.

If it's about the challenge and teamwork, then why do you need gear?  Specifically, why need or care about that gear having an advantage over what others who don't entertain your playstyle have?

It's all playstyle and opinion until the gear enters the equation, isn't it?  Otherwise why the 'silver platter' comment?

It's a risk vs. reward thing.  You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you?  As for the value of the gear?  They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.  

I think the point of better gear is also an archaic remnant of competitive PVE. PVE used to be huge and competitive, now it's mostly casual, because it's notthing new to anyone. Gear wise, GW and Lord of the Rings vanilla both had a good system.

GW has maximum gear easily attainable and customizable for a price, and people grind to get better looking gear. Lord of the rings vanilla had 3 equivalent armor sets at all time that had similar stats. You had the crafted set, the PVE set and the PVP set. All had relatively identical stats (Raid set might have had +1 str and -1 agi compared to the crafted set for instance).

As people have mentionned, gear is a reward to a feature of the game. Let's take rift, it has PVE quests with faction, PVE dungeons/raiding with a dungeon currency, PVP with a PVP currency and PVP sets, and PVE rifting which is basically open world PVEing.

Why should the guy that spent dedicated hours to become a high standing member of a faction shouldn't have access to a piece of equipment equivalent to what might have taken you a single raid run to attain?

Why should the guy that spent countless time and money on training his crafting not be able to craft master piece equipment? Could be made using extremely rare materials that would drop on average every hour or so.

And what has made people leave rift en mass, why people saving the world constantly by fighting rift invasion and rifts spawn/rift raids and expert rift not have access to their own set of armor?

Originally posted by Escargon

Originally posted by Wraithone 

Why can't there be world PvP and world bosses?  Because of the existence of people like the Goonies.  They are the main reason that every game that has had FFA PvP has changed its rule set, niched itself (or gone under).  The overwhelming majority of the western player market has rather little toleration for ganking and griefing these days. Which is why games that allow (let alone encourage) it find themselves in a narrow niche market. 

As far as raiding goes, its partly laziness on the part of the Dev's, and partly the fault of a small percentage of the player base, who eat such relatively easy to create end game content up.  But its a toxic feed back cycle at this point. Thats why I'll be fascinated to see how Guild Wars 2 deals with this.  Rather few people realize that many of the operational methods involved in on line gaming, come from the work of people like B. F Skinner, and his early work on what is known as operant conditioning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner

Moving beyond such an approach, would require much more talent, creativity and time, than most Dev's (and their investors) are willing (or able at this point...) to bring to the market. 

 I actually did enjoy chinese players hiding behind the cliffs one shoting players trying to attempt killing a world boss.

I dont care much about people ruining world bosses, every player attempting to do raids nowadays success and every player looks the same. Let there be griefing, just about anything, and let the world boss drop some enchant that makes your sword bleed as a cool effect and you will be one unique snowflake.

As for the world PvP- i actually find it funny, cause players enjoyed PvPing and griefing in Diablo 2 such as an assassin blocking uber diablo by puting traps one shoting players that wanted to have unique items. Nowadays, if that would happen, holy crap the forums would flood.

You know what pisses me off my friend? Players rolls PvP servers and whining about getting ganked. Its just better that the devs ignores them. They threath you that they will quit but they will just go PvE. They do enjoy getting attention.

Actually i did enjoy raids back in the days. Its not because of the time it took, its because of the extremely low drop chance items had. If you got a dragon bow, everyone would screenshot you. Now raids fails because its way too easy, way too boring, way too long, feels like a job and youll successfully get raid gear but you wont look unique, everyone attempting to do raids nowadays succeed.

They just cant make raid bosses funny anymore. Way too easy=whine, way too hard= qq. Imagine if Blizzard actually put up Diablo as a raid boss one shoting the raids with fire nova and channeling that one shot fire beam randomly across the room. The forums would be flooded with whine.

I want to add: The only really successfull PvP i played solo gotta be all vs all places where people had to fight in a arena for a chest. I so enjoyed it.

; I would enjoy raiding once again if the bosses were interesting and have extremely low chance to drop something really cool. It still exists in WoW, some bosses have an extremely low chance to drop mounts, and when you fly around with your phoenix, everyone will go after you and ask you where the hell you got that mount from. I think that most players enjoy looking unique.

So you do raids so you can do flex emotes in front of the auction house.

And what's the point of griefing a player trying to kill a boss in Diablo?

Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats.

Originally posted by Furor

If raiding is so unpopular why does world of warcraft still retain 11.4 million players worldwide???

answer me that? where is the proof that raiding is unpopular? World of warcraft is huge on end game raiding yet they retain those huge subscribers? are you sure that raiding is unpopular in mmos??? And perhaps raiding in your opinion is unpopular and not the opinion of general mmorpg players ??

Because WOW-clone is the only available game out there, and why play a WOW-clone when you can play the original.

Originally posted by Borick

Originally posted by zethcarn

It's a risk vs. reward thing.  You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you?  As for the value of the gear?  They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.  

 

Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?

The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.

So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?

I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do.  It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game.  Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.

Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game.  Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?

You speak TREASON!! It is the Divine Right of Raiders to lord over the great unwashed of the non raider population.  It is the natural order of things. It is how things have always been, and hence how they must always be.

Actually, when one starts to examine the background and details of the reason that raiding is such a big part of end game,  (for a small part of the total population...) you discover that its because its one of the most relatively easy and cheap content types to produce. ^^

In other words, its both time and talent effective.  Quality content is one of THE most expensive things time/talent wise to produce.   Given the broken dynamic of most end game systems, its pretty much all one can really expect, at this point in the evolution of MMO's. 

So you do raids so you can do flex emotes in front of the auction house.

And what's the point of griefing a player trying to kill a boss in Diablo?

 

Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats.

 I gotta say that the world boss was a bad idea but it was fun in WoW as long as it lasted. Atleast you could go to the world and have some fun with other players.

1. What do you mean? Well maybe you find it fun to look like everyone else but i want to feel unique. It feels rewarding. OFC you do raids to get raid gear, theres a reason why raid gear in WoW looked so freaking cool. Its because you got rewarded for raiding. Now, everyone got the same equipment, and Blizzard do not bother making unique raiding gear anymore. Just "put a sack on his face and make the cloths burn!" Im changing my mind here actually: Make raid gear as easy to get as nowadays but make every boss have an extremely small chance to drop the coolest badass looking weapon so i can /flex at the AH.

Thats what i mean really by replying this topic. Atleast i wont bother raiding anymore because i will still look the same as everyone else. Thats what made me love GW. The best gear could be obtained in almost the same easy mode, but you had to go far far ahead and do farms to make yourself looking unique. Why did i even bother to get a cannibal mask for my warrior in GW when i could buy an item easily with the same stat? I wanted to look unique.

Actually, as i know that most players just picks the easiest class and race combo to play with, i dont have a clue why noone bothers to raid anymore.

TLDR; If MMOs had unique or hard to get items i would raid again. And add keys and other hard to get stuffs so any player cant enter the raid instantly. So would my friends too that have rolled PvP. Thats the reason they wont raid, they want to look unique. I dont know hows with the other people.

2. Its fun cause many people cant play well. I myself entered the game as a paladin with lighting resistance and owned the assassin by charging bashing her away and pulling Diablo away to kill him in a safe place.

Okay, bad bad example. Ofc its exploiting when 40 frost mages guards a boss, this is an MMO, but its still not fun to see the devs change basic skills when you can play smart to get over something.

"Wow, every problem with MMOPG games comes from people like you, grats."

I cant argue against this. As players like you made Blizzard put up elite guards everywhere to prevent PvPing in PvP servers. Grats.

(As in i have no intention to ruin the MMO world, as you judge me for every bad thing ive done to your MMO (which is nonsense, i never QQ or whine atleast in the official forums) you might think its fine for me to judge you like that?

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by CalmOceans

*It's like having a second job

2-6 hours a week is hardly a second job. Where do you work?  I want your job.

*People who raid are often jerks and elites.

Largely depends on the guild.  I'd say about half are elites & half are laidback and cool.  Show some effort and find one that fits you.

*It takes away freedom

A lot of hobbies do, what's you point?

*It ruins Fantasy

Subjective.  

*You're no longer a hero, you're a sheep in the game answering to someone else.

You actually thought you were a unique snowflake in a game world filled with thousands of players?  Seriously?

*It's just not fun, only addictive.

Subjective.

Why did you ruin my post by posting crap under each line in red. Sigh.

I'm sorry.  I now understand that your opinion is absolute and cannot be questioned.  Please do not throw me into the snake pit, your majesty.

 Or throw you in an endless raid, where at the end you get no loot.

I can only speak of raiding experiences in WoW but for me the actual combat part of it wasn't fun enough to make up for the rest of the bs that goes hand-in-hand with raiding. Pounding out the same rotation hour after hour, week after week isn't enjoyable to me.

If the atmosphere in a new raid area was nice I'd get some pleasure out of going through it, still like Kara alot, but that usually diminishes over time. I'd feel a sense of communal accomplishment when we'd manage to get all 10 or 25 of us to simultaneously jump a hurdle and down a boss, but that too would fade after the first few times.

With the enjoyment of simply  being there and the feeling of accomplishing something gone, it just turns into work. Without having any fun in the process of putting out dps,heals or threat, that work isn't enjoyable and It it's time to give your two-weeks notice.

That being said i'd probably still play, and raid in, WoW if they'd never raised the level cap and I had all the raiding content they'd ever created available to new and old characters at max level. Keep the heroics for each expac for the badge/emblem grinds if you want to skip the previous xpacs raids for gearing and just turn people loose. It is a themepark, but it seems silly to have shut down all of the old rides just because they're not shiny anymore.

Originally posted by Painlezz

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Painlezz

Do you mean MMORPG.COM community?  Because that is one of the few places I notice raiding is really unpopular.

WoW, Rift, even EVE all have strong raiding communities. 

 Right, that's why EQ, the raiding king of games went through 2 million subs and never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak or WoW, whose developers admitted openly that no more than 20% of their player base participates in raids?  The anecdotal data is out there if you take the time to actually look for it or heck, if you even bother to talk to people when you play these games, the trend is obvious.

 How is EQ the raiding king?  2 million subs and only 450,000 left?  How does this have anything to do with people enjoying raiding?  Where does this 20% number come from?  Both smell like they were pulled out of an anus.

Raiding is huge in WoW.  Sure, out of the millions and millions of players it might only be a smaller portion who actually manage to do it.  But the argument here was why people don't like it.  Which I believe is a bad argument.  I think a large majority of players are just unable to do it.

Raiding in most games takes a LOT of time investment.  Average probably 4 hour solid play session multiple times per night.  Most normal humans have jobs, and other things they need to do each day/night.

 When SOE was making EQ2, they admitted the numbers of people who left EQ, due to two reasons, it being too hardcore and too raid centric end game, that's why they made EQ2 more casual.  Blizzard gave out those numbers when they first started getting such poisonous feedback from the community when they kept adding raid after raid in the first year and not enough casual content and decided to add more casual content due to the lashback.  These numbers were not made up, do any kind of research and you'll find this information.

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by Borick

Originally posted by zethcarn

Well raiding is a challenge and some just don't want any challenge in their games.  It's too much of a 'headache' for them and I can understand their point of few slightly.  However if all the rewards are handed to you on a silver platter...well that's incredibly boring and pointless isn't it?

As was pointed out above, what is the 'reward' of going to the beach?  What is the reward of tubing down a river, or riding Pirates of the Carribean?  What do I gain by sticking with my family and friends, even though they aren't capable of ever playing at a semi-pro level?

Take it a step further and consider -- what would pro sports be without the fans all the way down to the t-ball kids?  Am I having a less rewarding experience just because I'm not hitting for the green fence?

I don't think that this point is a slight one.  It's central to the argument.  The only folks who seem to care about a 'silver platter' are the people who are driven to fill the (in my opnion delusional) need for progression.

It's not really about the "need for progression" but, again, about challenging yourself & your teammates on overcoming a seemingly impossible task (and the satisfication of doing so).  You have your playstyle and I have mine.

 Yet your play style gets the lion's share of developer time and rewards over everyone else?  Screw that!

Pretty late to this discussion but speaking for myself what I hate about raid content (not that I hate it altogether) is that it basically becomes the only end game content.

Offering 10 man versions doesnt help. Offering 25 man versions doesn't help ... doesn't help me at least.

For me the purpose of an MMO is to carve out the story of a hero. A hero doesn't wuss out and not do the hard content.

I think with anything, especially on forums like this .. there is going to be reaction, and usually over-reaction to any news about anything. We are now in the 10s of millions of people. To expect them not to have differing opinions .. won't work essentially.

Originally posted by Borick

Originally posted by zethcarn

It's a risk vs. reward thing.  You aren't going to get the best gear in the game by doing "Pick 10 flowers" quests and why should you?  As for the value of the gear?  They are just merely trophies & required tools to get to the next step...tools that will be obsolete in 1 year maximum.  

 

Please explain how your rewards relate to the rewards of someone who 'picks flowers'?

The flower-picker wouldn't be able to complete a hardmode raid with any amount of gear, because the true difficulty in raiding is in not having any individual stand in something.

So how is your reward made more appreciable by denying reward to someone who cannot and isn't interested in competing with you?

I submit that your rewards are only appreciable BECAUSE of the comparison between with who do not have what you do.  It is this desire to stand above others that requires the loot awards cater to the raid game.  Even the leaders of Ensidia, in their interview about Star Wars: TOR made clear that a game with only a million subs couldn't support hardcore raiding.

Without scrubs to lord over, raiders have no game.  Can it be any wonder that the common scrub is tired of being taxed to pay for something completely irrelevent but fully dependent upon them?

 No matter how logical your arguments, you cannot convice people who feel entitled and truly believe they deserve superior gear to prove that they're better gamers than everyone else.

Originally posted by azmundai

Pretty late to this discussion but speaking for myself what I hate about raid content (not that I hate it altogether) is that it basically becomes the only end game content.

Offering 10 man versions doesnt help. Offering 25 man versions doesn't help ... doesn't help me at least.

For me the purpose of an MMO is to carve out the story of a hero. A hero doesn't wuss out and not do the hard content.  When the "hero" has a medical condition where "hero" needs to use the bathroom sometimes every 30 minutes, then it becomes a problem for the "hero" to do the "hard content".  

*does flex emotes in front of AH*

I think with anything, especially on forums like this .. there is going to be reaction, and usually over-reaction to any news about anything. We are now in the 10s of millions of people. To expect them not to have differing opinions .. won't work essentially.

I remember the days of 72 man raids. They were awful.

Originally posted by negacrowbar

Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....

YOU WIPE.

Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.

By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.

He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.

Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.

That's why I hate raiding.

If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).

Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.

If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.

This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.

Originally posted by Treephrog

Originally posted by negacrowbar

Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....

YOU WIPE.

Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.

By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.

He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.

Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.

That's why I hate raiding.

If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).

Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.

If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.

This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.

Well, thats pretty much SOP for raiding. But I'm not interested in a second job.  I've done 40 man raids (WAY too many times through MC) and at this point I'm not at all interested in raiding.  Doing the same raid over and over and over, in the faint hope of up grading my gear, so I can do the next raid over and over, isn't really appealing to me at this point.  But some people find it entertaining, to each their own <shrug>. 

But given the broken dynamics of most end games, raiding is pretty much all that can be expected at this point in MMO's evolution. Hopefully that will change over time. 

Originally posted by Wraithone

Well, thats pretty much SOP for raiding. But I'm not interested in a second job.  I've done 40 man raids (WAY too many times through MC) and at this point I'm not at all interested in raiding.  Doing the same raid over and over and over, in the faint hope of up grading my gear, so I can do the next raid over and over, isn't really appealing to me at this point.  But some people find it entertaining, to each their own . 

But given the broken dynamics of most end games, raiding is pretty much all that can be expected at this point in MMO's evolution. Hopefully that will change over time. 

Yep, pretty much. The thing with us though, we arn't always deadly serious with things, and it's the spontaneous, silly times that make the rest of the time worth it :). Though I really do enjoy raiding for the activity itself (I'm one that doesn't get bored trying to always improve my performance, which is a totally seperate thing from gear upgrades), and not looking at it strictly as what lootz can I haz. Upgrades are nice, but even more fun are nights when the warrior just can't beat the elevator boss no matter what, and then we get started on the drinking game whenever a certain person gets blown off Al'akir's platform lol. Finishing the raid kinda becomes secondary to a group of people just having fun and enjoying each other's company :).

Originally posted by Treephrog

Originally posted by negacrowbar

Your guild raids at 10 pm every night. It takes til 11 pm for 20 of 25 people to get ready. Now you are short tanks and haelers, with a butt load of hunters. So, everyone starts asking around for LFG through their social networks. By 11:30, you find the last 5 people and by then, 3 others have left. By 12 am, you are finnally ready, then....

YOU WIPE.

Everyone bitches, points fingers, you find out 4 people dont have vent so they get booted, 2 more people leave and the search goes out again.

By 1 am, you give it another try, managed to wipe two more times before you actually clear one wing. Everyone quits for the night, promises to meat tomorrow, but then your guild leader calls you to a side chat in ventrillo and explains what you did wrong. He tells you to go watch you tube, read the forums and understand all the fights coming up for the week.

He gives you advice on how you should play, on what armor you need.

Next day. Rinse. Repeat. And another talk from your guild leader about how you are supposed to play a game.

That's why I hate raiding.

If the raid is at 10, everybody should be on before then to be prepared and waiting for the invite, which usually happens 15-30 mins before start time. Enough people should be on the calendar invite to fill the raid, plus some for standby. If not then you should be doing 10man instead of 25. You don't do guild raids unless you have the required tanks/heals in your core, that should be a non-issue. By 10 (dsignated start time) you are standing at the first trash pull, flasked, buffed and fed. Everyone there is on vent/mumble (requirement to be invited in the first place, as it's the first sign that the person is actually raid worthy).

Wipes happen. It's part of the learning process. Nobody has any cause to complain unless that particular raid is on farm (meaning you can do it in your sleep). Getting back from a wipe should take very little time. 5 mins max.

If your guild leader has to tell you how to gear and what you did wrong (twice!) instead of you immediately recognizing your mistake and working to correct it, I'd have to say you're not ready for raiding. It's not his job to educate you about your class skills and gearing, that is part of being a good raider.. as is knowing about fights before you get to them. Sounds to me like you hate raiding becuse you are not prepared.

This is how my guild works, and we consider ourselves quite casual. That doesn't mean we can't do what we do correctly. We schedule raids when people can be there, and we keep on schedule as people enjoy raiding and are happy to be there. Else there is always someone that would be happy to have your spot.

So what did they do wrong, in Donkey Kong Deluxe?

i only care to do raids once or twice after that its boring to me.unless of course i get with a group of friends and we just drink and have fun messing up and joking. I do just fine with whatever armor and weapons i can find. I play to splore do some lite RP and just have some crazy fun=)