Leveling has been in almost every mmo I have played except Eve and Perpetuum. And even Eve and Perpetuum have a sort of leveling mechanic. Leveling has been a mmo cliché for far too long imo.

The number 1 reason leveling needs to be replaced is because it divides a games players and separates players into different tiers that are able to work together or even against each other. You see this in every mmo and really get the sense of it when as a new player you try to attack something or another player several levels higher than you and you have nothing in the way of choices to defend yourself. Allods tries to alleviate this problem to some extent in the 1st pvp area with emblems that 1 shot players over 29, but this does not lend to what I consider interesting battles. 1 or 2 shotting people does not add to a tab target type pvp game play.

I think it is better when players have options other than to flee for your life over and over. There should be some back and forth trading of blows there should be some time to react and counter attack and strategically chose from your options.

There is a division that I think is artificial and leaves an after taste that I can't shake from game mechanics that rely on levels.

We need a replacement for leveling game play. That is what developers need to be working on. Funcom has a good start on this with The Secret World imo. Gear and the journey or experience you get from playing should be more important than leveling and grinding out "xp" to get to max level just so you can compete or get to and end game content.

I think Eve and Perpetuum give you a good alternative game play where even low "level" new players can have a roll in battle as scouts and what not but the in game mechanics fail to directly reward such game play with tangible income to support themselves. We need to be solving these problems more completely.

I think there needs to be a focus on creating mechanics like territorial control that reward all participants monetarily and with other rewards that make the endeavor worth while.

Many games have this like Eve, Allods and Perpetuum but along with leveling mechanics and this is not conducive to fun battles where the higher level is wining simply because he is a higher level and not because of his choices in battle.

Shooter mmo's are the future because of the fun factor but also because there is no need for levels. Your skill and your learning speed replace leveling.

So leveling I think should not be a considered mechanic in the mmo's of the future.

Do you agree?

Levels serve to show a clear gain of strength or some sort of achievement (even if it is only fancy lights), as well as mark your readiness to attain new abilities. The whole system relies around there being something to look forward to (and thus keep you hooked). It's simply another method of advancing your character. I'm a pretty hardcore sandbox fan btw, though I like the classic levelling system (though there are many flaws with how it's implemented).

Getting to the point. While I see your arguments, I believe the reason we focus so much on levels is not because of the levelling system itself but because of the huge power gap between one level and the next; I'm specifically referring to the more recent MMOs.  The problem is, most recent MMOs not only make it ridiculously easy to level (so it almost seems worthless), but also provide HUGE power gains per level. In WoW for example, the diminishing returns on hit chance against players above you is significant. After 2 levels, for every level they are above you you gain 11% chance to miss. Not to mention the huge HP gains.

There is a middle ground where levelling conveys a visible benefit (very small power gain, access to new abilities) and where it doesn't apply a huge power gap so as to isolate players from one another. In my honest opinion it would be fine if MMOs refined their levelling system to something along these lines:

1) Have fewer total levels so players are less far away from eachother in terms of level gap,

2) Made levelling more steady and focus on it as a journey rather than a chore, and

3) Reduce the power gains (total HP, damage output & in the WoW example the miss chance penalty) per level to reduce the power gap between levels

In such a system you'd keep the accomplishment of gaining a level and power so often, and you don't have to become more powerful every level as to be able to decimate a creature or player that you struggled with last level.

MMOTomb had an article on this a few months ago, there's also a link to Tobold's article on it at around the same time.

http://www.mmotomb.com/character-power-progress/

At their core, MMOs are an empowerment fantasy.  Character advancement is how this is portrayed to the player,

Originally posted by maplestone

At their core, MMOs are an empowerment fantasy.  Character advancement is how this is portrayed to the player,

Exactly

Although I'd be specific and say MMORPGs, not MMOs.  There are non-RPG MMOs where progression has less of a role.

Originally posted by Torrent41

Levels serve to show a clear gain of strength or some sort of achievement (even if it is only fancy lights), as well as mark your readiness to attain new abilities. The whole system relies around there being something to look forward to (and thus keep you hooked). It's simply another method of advancing your character. I'm a pretty hardcore sandbox fan btw, though I like the classic levelling system (though there are many flaws with how it's implemented).

 

Getting to the point. While I see your arguments, I believe the reason we focus so much on levels is not because of the levelling system itself but because of the huge power gap between one level and the next; I'm specifically referring to the more recent MMOs.  The problem is, most recent MMOs not only make it ridiculously easy to level (so it almost seems worthless), but also provide HUGE power gains per level. In WoW for example, the diminishing returns on hit chance against players above you is significant. After 2 levels, for every level they are above you you gain 11% chance to miss. Not to mention the huge HP gains.

 

There is a middle ground where levelling conveys a visible benefit (very small power gain, access to new abilities) and where it doesn't apply a huge power gap so as to isolate players from one another. In my honest opinion it would be fine if MMOs refined their levelling system to something along these lines:

 

1) Have fewer total levels so players are less far away from eachother in terms of level gap,

2) Made levelling more steady and focus on it as a journey rather than a chore, and

3) Reduce the power gains (total HP, damage output & in the WoW example the miss chance penalty) per level to reduce the power gap between levels

 

In such a system you'd keep the accomplishment of gaining a level and power so often, and you don't have to become more powerful every level as to be able to decimate a creature or player that you struggled with last level.

 

MMOTomb had an article on this a few months ago, there's also a link to Tobold's article on it at around the same time.

 

http://www.mmotomb.com/character-power-progress/

I agree with this link as well as the Tobold link inside.

This is what happens when game developers can't think outside that small box for what's fun, interesting, and exciting. (It's funny too that developers tend to never talk about "interesting" and "exciting", just "fun" as it is dictated by their narrow view.)

It's dictated to gamers, by developers, that they shall climb a ladder. That along the way they will step off on floors tailored and controlled by them, and ye shall find the only "fun" they shall determine is "fun". That going back down the ladder to previous floors shall be unrewarding, and that going farther up the ladder before they say you shall will be equally unrewarding.

It's like that first gold piece you earned, the small rewarding feeling becomes meaningless in a few more levels. Everything you do becomes meaningless in a few more levels. Except as rungs on the ladder. Well worn rungs, if you decide to do it all again.

Wouldn't it be something if developers could open the lid on that box and climb out? And see other possibilities? But there's no need for a ladder to climb out of a box. Perhaps they have no rungs to climb themselves. A sad thing for an industry, when they are stuck in a box and getting stale in that place.

I like the way Ryzom does it: there are no classes, you just level skills. You can be several different skill levels at once, and be on teams of those levels. For example, say you are lvl 50 in melee, level 100 in healing, level 150 in range fighting, and level 200 in magic. You could join a team and fight at any one of those levels, so long as you stayed in that skill's powers. If you suddenly throw a lvl 200 magic spell during a lvl 100 fight, you won't get any xp, but otherwise you could be getting full XP at lvl 50, 100, 150, or 200. No need for alts. A true sandbox game.

Yeah I prefer skill based leveling to pure levels. Problem is, skill based leveling is harder to balance and leads to "FoTM" builds, much like pre-trammel UO and the Hally Mage. Darkfall had the right idea but the lack of skill cap makes everyone pretty much the same. While there isn't any FoTM builds, there really aren't any builds at all. I'd like to see future sandbox and like sandbox games (ArcheAge) do a better job of balancing to prevent this. Though ArcheAge seems to have taken a slightly different approach so we'll see what happens.

Originally posted by freejackmack

Leveling has been in almost every mmo I have played except Eve and Perpetuum. And even Eve and Perpetuum have a sort of leveling mechanic. Leveling has been a mmo cliché for far too long imo.

The number 1 reason leveling needs to be replaced is because it divides a games players and separates players into different tiers that are able to work together or even against each other. You see this in every mmo and really get the sense of it when as a new player you try to attack something or another player several levels higher than you and you have nothing in the way of choices to defend yourself. Allods tries to alleviate this problem to some extent in the 1st pvp area with emblems that 1 shot players over 29, but this does not lend to what I consider interesting battles. 1 or 2 shotting people does not add to a tab target type pvp game play.

I think it is better when players have options other than to flee for your life over and over. There should be some back and forth trading of blows there should be some time to react and counter attack and strategically chose from your options.

There is a division that I think is artificial and leaves an after taste that I can't shake from game mechanics that rely on levels.

We need a replacement for leveling game play. That is what developers need to be working on. Funcom has a good start on this with The Secret World imo. Gear and the journey or experience you get from playing should be more important than leveling and grinding out "xp" to get to max level just so you can compete or get to and end game content.

I think Eve and Perpetuum give you a good alternative game play where even low "level" new players can have a roll in battle as scouts and what not but the in game mechanics fail to directly reward such game play with tangible income to support themselves. We need to be solving these problems more completely.

I think there needs to be a focus on creating mechanics like territorial control that reward all participants monetarily and with other rewards that make the endeavor worth while.

Many games have this like Eve, Allods and Perpetuum but along with leveling mechanics and this is not conducive to fun battles where the higher level is wining simply because he is a higher level and not because of his choices in battle.

Shooter mmo's are the future because of the fun factor but also because there is no need for levels. Your skill and your learning speed replace leveling.

So leveling I think should not be a considered mechanic in the mmo's of the future.

Do you agree?

You really have not got a clue and I strongly disagree; MMOs are about longevity and progression as a core basis. You cannot afford to develop vast worlds with content when the content does no longer mean anything.

Hop in and out Arena game are just that they need a small grid to play in........

Think about the one sentence I have provided here. If you want Immediate self satisfaction go play the correct genre.

---

Originally posted by Isane

---

Originally posted by freejackmack

Leveling has been in almost every mmo I have played except Eve and Perpetuum. And even Eve and Perpetuum have a sort of leveling mechanic. Leveling has been a mmo cliché for far too long imo.
The number 1 reason leveling needs to be replaced is because it divides a games players and separates players into different tiers that are able to work together or even against each other. You see this in every mmo and really get the sense of it when as a new player you try to attack something or another player several levels higher than you and you have nothing in the way of choices to defend yourself. Allods tries to alleviate this problem to some extent in the 1st pvp area with emblems that 1 shot players over 29, but this does not lend to what I consider interesting battles. 1 or 2 shotting people does not add to a tab target type pvp game play.
I think it is better when players have options other than to flee for your life over and over. There should be some back and forth trading of blows there should be some time to react and counter attack and strategically chose from your options.
There is a division that I think is artificial and leaves an after taste that I can't shake from game mechanics that rely on levels.
We need a replacement for leveling game play. That is what developers need to be working on. Funcom has a good start on this with The Secret World imo. Gear and the journey or experience you get from playing should be more important than leveling and grinding out "xp" to get to max level just so you can compete or get to and end game content.
I think Eve and Perpetuum give you a good alternative game play where even low "level" new players can have a roll in battle as scouts and what not but the in game mechanics fail to directly reward such game play with tangible income to support themselves. We need to be solving these problems more completely.
I think there needs to be a focus on creating mechanics like territorial control that reward all participants monetarily and with other rewards that make the endeavor worth while.
Many games have this like Eve, Allods and Perpetuum but along with leveling mechanics and this is not conducive to fun battles where the higher level is wining simply because he is a higher level and not because of his choices in battle.
Shooter mmo's are the future because of the fun factor but also because there is no need for levels. Your skill and your learning speed replace leveling.
So leveling I think should not be a considered mechanic in the mmo's of the future.
Do you agree?

---

You really have not got a clue and I strongly disagree; MMOs are about longevity and progression as a core basis. You cannot afford to develop vast worlds with content when the content does no longer mean anything.
Hop in and out Arena game are just that they need a small grid to play in........
Think about the one sentence I have provided here. If you want Immediate self satisfaction go play the correct genre.
 

---

I think you can use space in an mmo more effectively if it has value at the start and as you progress. Perpetuum does a fine job of using space well imo. It was built on the idea that Eve was built on, where resources can be fought over and space can be valued for the resource and for the pve that provides tangible reward and gives an area value.

If you are purely into pve and consuming content then it is also beneficial to have a mechanic in place that allows a low level player to participate and be able to help a high lvl group out; something like mentoring would do.

What I would like to see is a superficial lvling mechanic that only allows access to better gear or one that gives you a lvl based on the gear that you have obtained. Jumpgate Evolution was going to have the lvl dictate the gear and that is fine as long as low levels can add damage in a battle and get rewarded accordingly.

You seem to be set on a perception that is fixed on the idea that there is only 1 way to make a progression mechanic in an mmo. I think we need to try some thing more in line with the concept of mmo's and get as many people progressing together as possible. Do not artificially separate people with a WoW cloned progression mechanic.

I think that clarifies my views a bit more. :)

If by "immediate self satisfaction" you mean fun then yes I would like that too please. :) I think playing together is the main source of fun in an mmo imo. All too often guilds will be split unable to enjoy playing together through the lvling process because of lvl gaps and that is not an optimal progression mechanic for a massively multi player type game. I think it's about time for an unboxing of the tired old WoW clone lvl progression mechanic.

Let us think on the outside of the box for the future of mmo's.

Originally posted by Torrent41

...

Getting to the point. While I see your arguments, I believe the reason we focus so much on levels is not because of the levelling system itself but because of the huge power gap between one level and the next; I'm specifically referring to the more recent MMOs.  The problem is, most recent MMOs not only make it ridiculously easy to level (so it almost seems worthless), but also provide HUGE power gains per level. In WoW for example, the diminishing returns on hit chance against players above you is significant. After 2 levels, for every level they are above you you gain 11% chance to miss. Not to mention the huge HP gains.

 

...

COMPLETELY agree.  People always focus on levels, but the problem is really the fact that a level 30 is ridiculously stronger than a level 20.  Levels are just a mechanic that shows progression, that's it.  They are almost necessary in a class based system.  What is NOT necessary is making someone 10 levels higher than you into a demigod.

---

Originally posted by Creslin321

---

Originally posted by Torrent41

...
Getting to the point. While I see your arguments, I believe the reason we focus so much on levels is not because of the levelling system itself but because of the huge power gap between one level and the next; I'm specifically referring to the more recent MMOs.  The problem is, most recent MMOs not only make it ridiculously easy to level (so it almost seems worthless), but also provide HUGE power gains per level. In WoW for example, the diminishing returns on hit chance against players above you is significant. After 2 levels, for every level they are above you you gain 11% chance to miss. Not to mention the huge HP gains.
 
...

---

COMPLETELY agree.  People always focus on levels, but the problem is really the fact that a level 30 is ridiculously stronger than a level 20.  Levels are just a mechanic that shows progression, that's it.  They are almost necessary in a class based system.  What is NOT necessary is making someone 10 levels higher than you into a demigod.

---

Yes demigods are a result of a failed level based progression system. There is no reason why a lvl 10 should not be able to help take down a lvl 50, even if he does very little damage he is helping and should get rewarded accordingly.

Well, I dont think it would be possible / fun / successful for some RPG that allowed a new charactre to compete with a 2 year old character... MMORPGs are about time invested = power /wealth gained..

I for one love having levels, and tier mechanics seperating players.  So I can get in early, find my peoples and ignore nuuuubs.

Disagree Strongly :-|

100% agree with the OP. There was nothing more frustrating than coming across a rare world-PVP fight in WoW and not being able to do jack because my char is a few lvls too low. It almost enforces solo-play because grouping is pointless for the one of the players.

I believe the soft-Levels + skills is the best approach. But I think this also comes down to where a player came to MMOs from. I'm an FPSer so I enjoy know that the uber player with 10,000 kills can go down just as easily as any nub if he's not switched on. MMOs obviously need some sort of lvl progression but a spear to the chest should still hurt no matter who threw it. 

I both agree and disagree. In many MMOs, this can be detrimental to communities in many ways and can disallow you from playing with friends.

On the other hand, games such as GW2 provide very simple solutions to this. In GW2, you still have level progression as a means to measure power and effort within the game. However, when playing with a higher levelled player, they have the option to sidekick you up to a power more relative to the area, making gameplay there viable. They also bring higher level players DOWN to the level of the area, effectively making the entire game endgame-viable. However, when brought down in power like this, those players are not brought down fully and as such still feel quite powerful.

Systems like this can help fix the levelling issues you've mentioned, and yet still keep the levels themselves as that psychological boost to make you feel more awesome than you were ten seconds ago.

But leveling is a main attraction for the MMO genre. Taking out the leveling system is almost like taking out the roller coaster in a themepark, whats the point? Theres a certain since of acheivement that progression through leveling gives the player. It almost fulfills some basic primal instinct. This is partially why MMO's have done so well.

However, I do see where your coming from and theres always room for evolution. I could just personally care less for the idea of no character leveling.

There are many good alternatives to leveling in pen and paper games, but MMO devs never get further than D&D unless they steal the mechanics from a FPS game instead.

Systems like BRP (CoC, DG, Runequest), Storyteller (vampire) or Warhammer FRPG would work very well in a MMO. I hope CCPs take on the storyteller system works out.