Originally posted by Dolmong

Here is the chance for CCP to strike back....

with signing an agreement there will be no vanity items for RMT.

BOOOM !!!!  There goes the subscriber again and with more positive influence !! Then drawing more New people!!!

=)

Honestly I doubt if they promised their first borns there would be no game changing items in their MT the vocal minority would still complain and say CCP will eventually add it. :\

Originally posted by Dolmong

Here is the chance for CCP to strike back....

with signing an agreement there will be no vanity items for RMT.

BOOOM !!!!  There goes the subscriber again and with more positive influence !! Then drawing more New people!!!

=)

Why would they sign an agreement like that? What's their motivation?

The vocal minority in these games that gets emotionally invested enough to post on the boards and to nerdrage about RMT or whatever ALSO turn around and spend TEN TIMES as much on RMT as the silent majority. A few canceled subs and some people flipping their shit online isn't enough for a company to cut themselves off at the knees and promise to never, ever, ever do something that the vocal minority claims to hate, especially when those same players tend to spend the most money anyway.

That would be stupid. CCP might be doing some damage control now to get the PR back under control, but I highly doubt they're going to change course. 

Also, signing an agreement like that would shift control of the game from CCP to the vocal minority. Won't happen. Ever. I can't think of a single game development studio that would put that much power over their game in the hands of message board posters.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Paradigm68
Even as someone who did cancel in protest, I'm sure the numbers in that list are probabaly way over stated. You know how people are.

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The protest makes no sense, especially against MT.

Leave forever or just stop overreacting.

"Over reacting"?... Thats a rather subjective value judgement, that really only applies to you. It would seem that to several thousand people(at least), that this was the straw that broke the camels back.  One of the most fundamental principles of the exchange involved in various markets sectors, is the on going examination of value. As long as the good/service being offered is considered to be of more value than that which is being exchanged(in this case money), the transactions continue.  Once that changes, consumers take their time and money to ones competitors, or to an entirely different market sector.  Voting with ones wallet is seldom "over reacting". 

As I've stated, I suspect that their Chinese partners have been telling them of the Sweet Profits to be had in cash shops in Asia. The problem is that even these days, the easterm markets and western markets are still rather different in that regard.  It remains to be seen how this turns out, but for now, many in the west do not take well to the idea of cash shops. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Unshra

Now you are playing semantics. ;)

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ROFL

Avatar Creations might be nice guys but they really following the path of Aventurine and StarVault rather than CCP...

My point is you said what I said but worded it differently. lol

Yes they are like them and over time they will realize that when you show your balls people tend to kick them. However for now they will continue to do so and I like that, it's refreshing to have a company be that transparent but only time will tell if they change (and they always do.)

So yes it was a game of semantics. ^_^

Edit: The middle paragraph is in replay to your second point. I should have made that clearer.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Ceridith

Fine, semantics, that doesn't change my point.

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It does change everything as it makes your 'point' moot because it isn't semantics.

Any game change is affecting your game experience, thus they should not make any game change ever so some of their subscriber isn't affected in some unfortunate way...

You're arguing that everything is fair game because someone will be upset no matter what you do.

Going by that logic, then the line of acceptable MT exists nowhere, and CCP can freely start selling overpowered ships to players to one shot other players who have no way to defend against it... short of buying their own overpowered ships from the item store. People would be upset by it, but it doesn't matter, because people would be upset about something no matter what so might as well make money off it, right?

Just because you might draw the line at combat affecting MT, others may draw it at vanity MT. You're no more right or wrong than they are. They have every right to be unhappy about vanity MT as you do about combat affecting MT being added to the game.

Which is my point, the line of acceptability varies per individual, and each individual has every right to be upset over a change, no matter the change. Whether it's adding new content, to needed balance nerfs, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if they should choose to stop playing because of vanity MT being added to the game, then they're no more 'ridiculous' or 'throwing a fit over nothing' than you would be if you chose to stop playing were combat impacting MT added to the game.

Originally posted by DarkPony

I think the massive response was amazing and actually a big selling point for EVE as a game. Obviously people love it deeply; as most people unsubbing really did it to protest, not because they didn't like playing EVE anymore. I see them mainly as concerned citizens.

I agree with DarkPony above.  Also, I am troubled with that internal memo that was leaked.  Even it it was hypothetical, or for fun, it showed a sort of disregard for the players that I never imaged this developer could have.  

On a side note, a horse = a carrot :)

Still the funniest image I've ever imagined LOL

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Originally posted by Wraithone

Voting with ones wallet is seldom "over reacting". 

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Sure, and I explicitly said that they should leave forever.

The act of leaving as a demonstration of their opinion - the protest, is pointless as I thoroughly explained later.

I encourage voting with wallets, by all means. But there are times when it makes sense and you can achieve something and then are times where it makes no sense.

Originally posted by rashhero

Originally posted by Raxeon

 so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

 

When we say the market corrects itself, what is it correcting? Greed, greed it a negative effect of market activity. I get good pay at the telecom company I work for, why? Retainablity. My company shut down alost all of its low paying outsourcing centers because of high turn around. I am being paid more because they need me there. IF for instant you live by an industral plant; one day a few children die because of lead poisoning from contaminated water in your community because the plant has a high lead runoff; people in the community go ape and respond accordingly, the makert corrected itself because the plant refused to keep it clean, not that it cost to much, just because they were to greedy to spend to dispose of the contanimation. The damage is done (the company is eliminted due to outrage, or they know not to get caught doing it again, or correct it by disposing of the lead in a safe way)

 

If my company paid me less, and got tax breaks, and as well as found better technology to keep internal cost down, do you really think they will pass that savings to the consumer? why should they, I would not. My company has no need for more reps, and innovation for telecom services are going well enough for them

 

If companies can get away with it, and it increases their bottom line even if its at %.0000001, Greed would be putting poison in your kids candy and not think twice about it; free market corrections keep greed in check. And im not crying about government regulations on clean water can somehow put people out of jobs either

Originally posted by Illyssia

CCP and Blizzard need to learn that mmo players aren't dumb morons who will pay for virtual nothings beyond their monthly sub. Both of these are old games and there is only so far you can go with an old game before needing to re-write from the ground up. CCP probably have EvE 2 in secret early internal prodcution for release in 3-5 years time. They need to get the golden goose to extract as much cash as they can between now and then.

Actually we are dumb morons, because people DO buy the stuff ESPECALLY if its a mmo with PVP and cash shop/MT items can make them do 1 more damage than someone without the cash shop items. I'm not kidding pvptards as I like to call them will pay anything even for a 0.5% advantage over their enemy. Look at it this way, if there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't put it in. To the 1 mil CCP lost in subs? I guarnteed they gonna make that up and them some in less than a month after their MT stuff is in full swing. So in reality CCP just wins in the end, plus with less people player=less bandwith costs which = more profit for CCP.

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by Illyssia

CCP and Blizzard need to learn that mmo players aren't dumb morons who will pay for virtual nothings beyond their monthly sub. Both of these are old games and there is only so far you can go with an old game before needing to re-write from the ground up. CCP probably have EvE 2 in secret early internal prodcution for release in 3-5 years time. They need to get the golden goose to extract as much cash as they can between now and then.

Actually we are dumb morons, because people DO buy the stuff ESPECALLY if its a mmo with PVP and cash shop/MT items can make them do 1 more damage than someone without the cash shop items. I'm not kidding pvptards as I like to call them will pay anything even for a 0.5% advantage over their enemy. Look at it this way, if there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't put it in. To the 1 mil CCP lost in subs? I guarnteed they gonna make that up and them some in less than a month after their MT stuff is in full swing. So in reality CCP just wins in the end, plus with less people player=less bandwith costs which = more profit for CCP.

Going head to head with Blizzard has rarely resulted in a Win for anyone but Blizzard. Just Sayin'

Originally posted by Gdemami

"A document has surfaced with the names of over five thousand players "

Not 5k players but 5k accounts.

Actual numbers for the time being are:

Players: 2318
Accounts: 5257

Yep, that sounds about right most players have more than one account. But what I'm waiting for is for them to stick to their convictions. If they believe CCP aren't listening then they should delete their characters and never return to EVE.

Originally posted by qazyman

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by rashhero

Originally posted by Raxeon

 so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

Not really.  Believe it or not, some people actually do the things they do because they want to, NOT because they're compelled to make as much money as possible.

I assure you, people don't play music because they're greedy.  Or write books that will most likely yield them maybe 22 cents per hour invested, if anything.  Or become firemen.  Or cops.

If greed was truly the main motivating factor for productivity, people would all do the same thing:  whatever it is that makes the most money.  And they also wouldn't have any of those nasty, resource leeching kids...

Most could argue that point quite well.

 

Fire, the wheel, Penicillin, irrigation, agriculture, linguistics, and Art these thing where developed as a result of motivations more complex than greed.

 

Kim Kardashian, Red Bull, American Idol……….These things are more in the greed sphere of influence. 

Not really. I seldom use the word "greed", because its been badly abused by various collectivists.  But self interest(enlightened and other wise) is indeed one of the major motivators in most areas of human activity.  Its as true in business, as it is in science, the medical fields, technology, music, writing ect.  Fire was likely an accident, which was seized upon for its utility(self interest...).  "Greed" tends to be (in the popular mind at least) considered to be "negative" and one dimensional.  But in reality its more complex than what would fit into a sound bite or on a bumper sticker. 

The wheel made transport easier and less back breaking(self interest...). Peniclliin was a wonderful accident, and the result of observation into that accident. But its development was very much a matter of self interest. Irrigation made farming much more productive(self interest...).  In other fields its the search for fame, pleasing ones audience, or being accepted by ones peers that is one of the major motivators(again self interest).  Charges of "greed" are meant to be discussion/thought stoppers, much as "racism" and other such are. The trick is to see beyond the surface, and examine things in more than a single dimension. 

Originally posted by Aki_Ross

Originally posted by Gdemami

"A document has surfaced with the names of over five thousand players "

Not 5k players but 5k accounts.

Actual numbers for the time being are:

Players: 2318
Accounts: 5257

Yep, that sounds about right most players have more than one account. But what I'm waiting for is for them to stick to their convictions. If they believe CCP aren't listening then they should delete their characters and never return to EVE.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Paradigm68

 

Why does it make no sense? 

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What will happen once the cash shop is implemented:

1) Shop content sells well.

2) Shop content sells poor.

If they sell well, protest is pointless and shop content will be expanded.

If they sell poor, protest is pointless and shop content will have little use only.

In either case, protest is pointless as it will not make the cash shop go away. The cash shop will stay because as you said, CCP listens to numbers(thank god), which means they need get shop sales first. Thus once again, quitting as in a protest now makes no sense.

 

And as for reasons for protest:

You protest against something that is not affecting you but you still do not want someone else to have it? ....for real? Don't you feel a bit silly about it?

 

 

 It's not *currently* affecting me. It's the direction CCP is going in: The lying about never having non-vanity items in the shop. You don't pay much attention to the real reason behind the protest or why people are upset. It's not the stupidly priced vanity content. That's just CCP stupidity rearing its stupid head. It's the lying (Again) from CCP, who is notorious for lying and then asking for trust.

Originally posted by Aki_Ross

Originally posted by Gdemami

"A document has surfaced with the names of over five thousand players "

Not 5k players but 5k accounts.

Actual numbers for the time being are:

Players: 2318

Accounts: 5257

Yep, that sounds about right most players have more than one account. But what I'm waiting for is for them to stick to their convictions. If they believe CCP aren't listening then they should delete their characters and never return to EVE.

 

 Why delete? You a bit envious of the protester's moxie? Perhaps CCP gets new management in a year or two and cleans house, making people willing to give the game another shot. But you want them to delete? Spite much?

Originally posted by qazyman

Originally posted by Aki_Ross

Originally posted by Gdemami

"A document has surfaced with the names of over five thousand players "

Not 5k players but 5k accounts.

Actual numbers for the time being are:

Players: 2318
Accounts: 5257

Yep, that sounds about right most players have more than one account. But what I'm waiting for is for them to stick to their convictions. If they believe CCP aren't listening then they should delete their characters and never return to EVE.

All accounts are not created equal. Some generate 50K worth of activity, some 50 mil, and some even more. CCP probably doesn't want to do the math on the level of activity generated by these accounts.

Most likely, they already have. Running those kinds of analytics would be easy for CCP, since they have all the numbers.

Originally posted by eric_w

 Why delete? You a bit envious of the protester's moxie? Perhaps CCP gets new management in a year or two and cleans house, making people willing to give the game another shot. But you want them to delete? Spite much?

That will be the end of CCP and EVE. Might as well play STO or Battlestar Online at that point. LIke I said, going head to head in the PVE model is a graveyard with a long history.

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by Aki_Ross

Originally posted by Gdemami

"A document has surfaced with the names of over five thousand players "

Not 5k players but 5k accounts.

Actual numbers for the time being are:

Players: 2318

Accounts: 5257

Yep, that sounds about right most players have more than one account. But what I'm waiting for is for them to stick to their convictions. If they believe CCP aren't listening then they should delete their characters and never return to EVE.

 

 Why delete? You a bit envious of the protester's moxie? Perhaps CCP gets new management in a year or two and cleans house, making people willing to give the game another shot. But you want them to delete? Spite much?

People have been quitting these games in a nerdrage since UO, and having all sorts of grandiose dreams of management being fired over it. Oddly enough, it has never happened, at least IIRC.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Unshra

Now you are playing semantics. ;)

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ROFL

Avatar Creations might be nice guys but they really following the path of Aventurine and StarVault rather than CCP...

Not really. They have demonstrated that they have principles, and in more than five months I've never had a client crash. The most I've seen is a few disconnections, and over the last few days major lag because of the massive influx of players from EVE. But they are working VERY hard to fix that. Thats LEAGUES away from the two groups you mention. 

Originally posted by Malickie

I'm interested in seeing how many that say they will quit, actually quit. We've seen this in MMO's for years, so many claim to quit yet within a week are playing again. They try new games realize they are no longer at the top and go back to where they were.

Most of the people who have cancelled a sub didn't do it because they hate the game, or CCP they did it because they are angry and frustrated but ultimately they did it because they care.

The care about the game and the community and don't want to see it ruined but the only way they can see of getting through to CCP, and its investors is to hit the unsub button.

Many will come back after a week or a month or even a few months, and some will come back if they can get some solid feedback from the devs or the CSM.

Some people say its just people who cant get their own way having a tantrum but in reality its the only way many of us can see of telling CCP enough is enough and they need to make some changes.

Because if they don't those kind of cancelled subs will happen and will permanently stay cancelled. CCP is already in a minor amount of difficulty financially and the way they have neglected the game has come back to haunt them as the growth of subscribers has dramatically dropped.

At the moment they see MT and item shops as the solution to their problems when the reality is very different, all CCP needs to do is produce more expansions of the same quality as Apocrypha and the growth will come back.