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Religion & Politics  » New York signs Gay Marriage Law

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  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:11:53 PM#141
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

There is more to marriage than a legal contract. It is a social contract. If you are intent on entering into a marriage for legal rights to money or child access post break up, you haven't really got into the spirit of it.

 

 

A contract, any contract, has no meaning at all if there are no consequences for breaking the contract. If breaking the contract has no reprecussions at all, then why do you need a contract?

 

 

 There are consequences to breaking the social contract of marriage. The well being of your children not least amongst them.

Marriage is a social contract. You get married in front of all your friends and family and all your partners friends and family. At the very least you have to explain yourself to them. Face up to the humilation.

It's a social bond.

And then your mum is going to be angry with you becuase she wanted grandchildren and you didn't provide any, or you deprived any you did provide of a stable family enviroment, and not only will you get less access to them, but so will she... and the brides dad is going to be livid because he spent thousands on the wedding... and all your guests who financially chipped in to help you start up your new home...

And then there is you rown emotional state and the emotional state of your ex wife. All that wallowing in self misery.

There are consequences alright. The legal side is the very least of it.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:12:02 PM#142
Originally posted by baff

You might be discusssing the law, but for me that is the least important part of marriage.

The only legal part of marriage that I am really concerned with is immigration rights.

 

If you remove the legal aspects of marriage, then there is nothing to deny gays.

Gays already get married in Churches all the time, even in States that don't have legal gay marriage.

They get religiously married, for all the reasons you are talking about.

And who cares? It's their life, their Church, has nothing to do with me, or you, or the State.

Why would we even discuss it if there were no LEGAL aspects?

The issue is gays getting the same LEGAL rights as straight people.

if there are no LEGAL rights, there is no dispute.

Anyone can form a Church, and marry anyone if it's not a LEGAL marriage.

You can form a Church and marry your Mom, your cousin, your dog, your pet rock, a girl, a  guy, 10 girls or 10 guys.

No one will stop you. Why? Because it isn't LEGAL.

if the LAW is not involved, then who cares if you say you are the high priest of Lava Lava and you are marrying a rock?

Makes no difference to anyone, except you and the rock.

You can live with 10 girls if you want to. No one will stop you.

You can say you are forming the Church of girlygirly and marry all your ten girls. No one will stop you.

Because you're not going to get any LEGAL rights with that marriage.

That's the issue. LEGAL rights, and who can get them, and who can't. Only the STATE can give you LEGAL rights, and only the COURTS can enforce LEGAL rights.

If it's not a right given by the STATE and it's not enforceable by the COURT, it's your business, and no one gives shit what you do.

 

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:14:32 PM#143
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

There is more to marriage than a legal contract. It is a social contract. If you are intent on entering into a marriage for legal rights to money or child access post break up, you haven't really got into the spirit of it.

 

 

A contract, any contract, has no meaning at all if there are no consequences for breaking the contract. If breaking the contract has no reprecussions at all, then why do you need a contract?

 

 

 There are consequences to breaking the social contract of marriage. The well being of your children not least amiongst them.

Marriage is a social contract. You get married in front of all your friends and family and all your partners friends and family. At the very least you have to explain yourself to them. Face up to the humilation.

It's a social bond.

And then your mum is going to be angry with you becuase she wanted grandchildren and you didn't provide any, or you eprived any you did provide of a stable family enviroment... and the brides dad is going to be livid because he spent thousands on the wedding... and all your guests who financially chipped in to help you start up your new home...

And then there is yourown emotional state and the emotioal state of your ex wife. All that wallowing in self misery.

There are consequences alright. The legal side is the very least of it.

 

Nope.

Those are the exact same consequences if you split up with your girlfriend, that you have lived with for 10 years, and have children with.

Nothing to do with marriage.

The "marriage" doesn't create the conflict for the children, the break up does.

that's the same, married or not married.

Your Mum can get grandchildren, married or not married.

Marriage gets you Alimony.

That's it.

There are consequences of breaking up a relationship. that's true.

Those are the same married or not married.

EXCEPT if you are married, there's the addition of ALIMONY.

Got children?

You will pay child support, married or not married.

Custody will be determined, married or not married.

Got assets like a house?

Those assets will be divided, married or not married.

 

Got to pay Alimony? Only if you're married.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:17:54 PM#144

There is still a dispute I'm afraid.

Not from me personally but one I recognise to hold everybit as much validity as the rights of gay people. 

 

If you fuck around with what marriage means, you may devalue the concept in the minds of many people. Gay people aren't the only ones that feel strongly about it. It's not just their sensibilities you need to consider.

I see no reason to discriminate against traditionalists in favour of gays. I just don't see the point. Too little is gained.

 

In fact for the most part I see the whole debate as a vehicle to that end. To stick one in the eye to traditionalists. 

To me marriage is about love, the social contract, providing a stable enviroment for the raising of children And those are things I find to be cool and applaudable.

When it becomes instead a method of antagonising basically decent people, I have to say I find myself irritated by those selfish people who take pleasure in this.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:24:59 PM#145
Originally posted by baff

There is still a dispute I'm afraid.

Not from me personally but one I recognise to hold everybit as much validity as the rights of gay people. 

 

If you fuck around with what marriage means, you may devalue the concept in the minds of many people. Gay people aren't the only ones that feel strongly about it. It's not just their sensibilities you need to consider.

I see no reason to discriminate against traditionalists in favour of gays. I just don't see the point. Too little is gained.

 

I' ve heard this argument, but it is fundamentally flawed.

I think I can illustrate it fairly easily.

do you know anyone that is married, that will divorce because gays can get married? I do not. I don't think anyone has ever made that statement.

Well, I'm happily married now, but if gays get married, I'm going to divorce my spouse!

And why is it that no one says this?

Because the value of marriage does not change if gays can marry.

As I have explained in detail, the value of marriage is the LEGAL aspect of marriage.

Nothing about that legal aspect changes for straight people if gays can marry.

You can get Alimony now, if you are married.

You can get Alimony later, of gays can marry.

The value is the same.

Because LEGAL marriage, getting a Certificate from teh State, doesn't give you anything else.

It doesn't give you custody rights. You get those married or not married. It doesn't give you child support rights. You get those married or not married.

It doesn't give you property rights. You get those married or not married.

Marraige does give you a right to Alimony.

You still have that right, whether gays get married or not.

That's why no one says they are getting a divorce if gays can marry.

Because their marriage is still worth EXACTLY the same thing, either way. It's what the STATE gives you in LEGAL rights. That's why you get a certificate.

If there were no LEGAL rights, you wouldnt' need a certificate from teh STATE.

You'd just do a ceremony with your Priest.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:28:04 PM#146

If loads of people don't want gay marriage, becuase they feel it offends them, that is enough.

To cause offence where none is needed.

 

 Equally I might say to you

"Do you know any gay people who won't live together because they cannot get "married"?

 

It's like burning th Koran mate. If you know it will cause offence, you don't do it. There is no need.

 

Some people just delight in offending others. I say fuck all those miserable cunts. I will not advocate rewarding them.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:29:03 PM#147
Originally posted by baff

There is still a dispute I'm afraid.

Not from me personally but one I recognise to hold everybit as much validity as the rights of gay people. 

 

If you fuck around with what marriage means, you may devalue the concept in the minds of many people. Gay people aren't the only ones that feel strongly about it. It's not just their sensibilities you need to consider.

I see no reason to discriminate against traditionalists in favour of gays. I just don't see the point. Too little is gained.

 

In fact for the most part I see the whole debate as a vehicle to that end. To stick one in the eye to traditionalists. 

To me marriage is about love, the social contract, providing a stable enviroment for the raising of children And those are things I find to be cool and applaudable.

When it becomes instead a method of antagonising basically decent people, I have to say I find myself irritated by those selfish people who take pleasure in this.

 

If you just want love, social contract, and a stable environment for raising children, you don't need LEGAL marriage.

You can just go get your priest to marry you, and skip the MArriage Certificate.

That's what gays do in States that do not recognize marriage.

They go get married ina  Prostestant Church that recognizes gay marriage, and there are plenty of them.

They are religiously MARRIED. 

So they aren't fighting for the right to get religiously married. They already have that, everywhere, and there's really nothing you can do to stop them.

They are fighting for the same LEGAL rights as straight people.

If there were no LEGAL rights to marriage, there would be no discrimnation.

So it isn't a way to antagonize you.

It's a way to get the same LEGAL rights as you.

It's like saying blacks wanted the right to be free from slavery  just to antagonize you.

Really, it's not about you at all.

It's about the same LEGAL rights for everyone.

 

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:30:59 PM#148
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

There is still a dispute I'm afraid.

Not from me personally but one I recognise to hold everybit as much validity as the rights of gay people. 

 

If you fuck around with what marriage means, you may devalue the concept in the minds of many people. Gay people aren't the only ones that feel strongly about it. It's not just their sensibilities you need to consider.

I see no reason to discriminate against traditionalists in favour of gays. I just don't see the point. Too little is gained.

 

In fact for the most part I see the whole debate as a vehicle to that end. To stick one in the eye to traditionalists. 

To me marriage is about love, the social contract, providing a stable enviroment for the raising of children And those are things I find to be cool and applaudable.

When it becomes instead a method of antagonising basically decent people, I have to say I find myself irritated by those selfish people who take pleasure in this.

 

If you just want love, social contract, and a stable environment for raising children, you don't need LEGAL marriage.

 

 

 Exactly. I don't need legal marriage and nor do gay people.

Which is why all the fuss they make about it, to my mind, clearly roots from another motivation.

 

As it happens I believe that miotivation to be "sticking their finger up"  at people I fundamentally believe to be decent people who don't deserve the aggravataion.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:33:41 PM#149
Originally posted by baff

If loads of people don't want gay marriage, becuase they feel it offends them, that is enough.

To cause offence where none is needed.

 

 Equally I might say to you

"Do you know any gay people who won't live together because they cannot get "married"?

 

It's like burning th Koran mate. If you know it will cause offence, you don't do it. There is no need.

 

Some people just delight in offending others. I say fuck all those miserable cunts. I will not advocate rewarding them.

 

There is a difference between what you should do, and what is LEGAL.

In the US my freedom of speech is protected, which means I can burn the Quran if I want to.

Do I want to burn the Quran just to offend Muslims? No, I do not.

HOWEVER, I would be enraged if you took away the freedom of speech from American citizens if they want to do that.

Freedom of Speech is there to protect speech we DON"T like.

Speech everyone likes, doesn't need protection.

If you want to say "Babies are cute", you really don't need freedom of speech protection for that.

it's when people disagree, that we need protection of freedom of speech.

Then we let the market place of ideas decide who is right.

Not a government body that decides what ideas you can be exposed to, and what ideas you cannot be exposed to.

If someone wants to make a statement by burning the Quran, that's their right to free speech.

It's what our troops are dieing in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect. Our constitution,and our freedoms.

You can also burn the American flag.

that's your right to free speech.

I don't like it, but I suport your right to do it.

 

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:36:11 PM#150
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

There is still a dispute I'm afraid.

Not from me personally but one I recognise to hold everybit as much validity as the rights of gay people. 

 

If you fuck around with what marriage means, you may devalue the concept in the minds of many people. Gay people aren't the only ones that feel strongly about it. It's not just their sensibilities you need to consider.

I see no reason to discriminate against traditionalists in favour of gays. I just don't see the point. Too little is gained.

 

In fact for the most part I see the whole debate as a vehicle to that end. To stick one in the eye to traditionalists. 

To me marriage is about love, the social contract, providing a stable enviroment for the raising of children And those are things I find to be cool and applaudable.

When it becomes instead a method of antagonising basically decent people, I have to say I find myself irritated by those selfish people who take pleasure in this.

 

If you just want love, social contract, and a stable environment for raising children, you don't need LEGAL marriage.

 

 

 Exactly. I don't need legal marriage and nor do gay people.

Which is why all the fuss they make about it, to my mind, clearly roots from another motivation.

 

As it happens I believe that miotivation to be "sticking their finger up"  at people I fundamentally believe to be decent people who don't deserve the aggravataion.

 

Then you are supporting getting rid of LEGAL marriage for everyone.

there would be no State marriage license.

Marriage would simply be something you decide to do in your own religion if you choose to. 

People would never go to Court to divorce, because the State would not be involved in LEGAL marriage.

I would be ok with that.

Gays could marry in their churches, straight people could marry in their churches, Polygamists could marry in thier churches, whatever.

When you break up, that's not the business of the State.

You come to Court if you need help dividing assets, or child custody, or child support.

Just like you can do now, married or not married.

There would be no more Alimony.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:37:24 PM#151
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

There is a difference between what you should do, and what is LEGAL.

In the US my freedom of speech is protected, which means I can burn the Quran if I want to.

Do I want to burn the Quran just to offend Muslims? No, I do not.

 You might not, but then neither do you want to marry another man.

But there are still plenty of people out there who do.

 

People like to shock. They like to outrage society.

Punks, rockers, queens.

That rebellion is a significant factor of gay mentality.

 

 

For myself what is legal is not a big concern. If I do what I should do, and worry about that... then I don't have to worry so much about what is legal.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:43:08 PM#152
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

There is a difference between what you should do, and what is LEGAL.

In the US my freedom of speech is protected, which means I can burn the Quran if I want to.

Do I want to burn the Quran just to offend Muslims? No, I do not.

 You might not, but then neither do you want to marry another man.

But there are still plenty of people out there who do.

 

People like to shock. They like to outrage society.

Punks, rockers, queens.

That rebellion is a significant factor of gay mentality.

 

 

For myself what is legal is not a big concern. If I do what I should do, and worry about that... then I don't have to worry so much about what is legal.

 

Seriously? Get a grip.

Raising children is hard work, and so is child birth.

I seriously do not think Rosie O'donnell and her wife adopted 3 children, and birthed one naturally just to shock you.

You think they got married, and are taking care of all these kids, just to shock you?

 

Dude, really. They don't give a shit about you. They just want to live their lives, and have kids, and be married, like anyone else.

People are getting married because they love each other, not because they want to shock you. Get over it.

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:43:59 PM#153
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

Then you are supporting getting rid of LEGAL marriage for everyone.

 

 It's not a subject I feel strongly about.

For me it's question of proportionality.

 

If you want to get rid of legal marriage, and this offends no-one or offends far fewer than it pleases, I don't really mind.

If on the otherhand getting rid of legal marriage had dire consequences or garnered the ire of significant numbers of people I respect, then I would feel differently about it.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:47:45 PM#154
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

 

 Funny that you should talk about the hardships of childbirth and then show a picture of a load of adopted kids.

I have already conceded to you that i have no qualms about gay couples raising families and being afforded all the considerations and respect this warrants.

But I don't really think two gay men for example are going to experience much pain in childbirth. It's rather a non-issue in my opinion.

Neither do I feel there is any significant demand amongst the gay community to raise families. I find this to be counter intuative. 

 

As I said, I consider this to be a question of proportionality.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:56:57 PM#155
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

 

 Funny that you should talk about the hardships of childbirth and then show a picture of a load of adopted kids.

I have already conceded to you that i have no qualms about gay couples raising families and being afforded all the considerations and respect this warrants.

But I don't really think two gay men for example are going to experience much pain in childbirth. It's rather a non-issue in my opinion.

Neither do I feel there is any significant demand amongst the gay community to raise families. I find this to be counter intuative. 

 

They are not all adopted. The blond woman birthed the little blond girl, or at least one of the kids, I think it was the little girl.

So your argument is, gay marriage would be ok for lesbians, but not gay men?

 

In the US , the number of children in gay and lesbian homes was between six and 10 million in 2000.

 

that's a lot of children, don't you think?

 

One third of lesbian couples and one fifth of gay male couples have children.

 

I would call a third or a fith, significant. You might not.

It may be counter intuative, but those are the facts.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 5:00:00 PM#156
Originally posted by baff

Neither do I feel there is any significant demand amongst the gay community to raise families. I find this to be counter intuative. 

 

As I said, I consider this to be a question of proportionality.

 

Marriage does nothing for raising a family.

Child custody is the same married or not married.

Child support is the same married or not married.

40% of children today are born out of wedlock.

Marriage gets you ALIMONY.

None of the rights for taking care of children are dealt with by MARRIAGE.

Staying together in a committed relationship to raise children can be done without MARRIAGE.

Marriage gets you ALIMONY.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 5:03:40 PM#157
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

They are not all adopted. The blond woman birthed the little blond girl, or at least one of the kids, I think it was the little girl.

So your argument is, gay marriage would be ok for lesbians, but not gay men?

 

In the US , the number of children in gay and lesbian homes was between six and 10 million in 2000.

 

that's a lot of children, don't you think?

 

One third of lesbian couples and one fifth of gay male couples have children.

 

I would call a third or a fith, significant. You might not.

It may be counter intuative, but those are the facts.

 I would consider all those homes to be broken homes.

Where is the father?

 

Each one of those a tragedy.

 

Not the end of the world of course, not by a long shot. But certainly not my optimum outcome.

And certainly I am not looking to use marriage to encourage broken homes. As I said before, the role of the marriage contract in society is to encourage and support the exact opposite of this.

 

I would also say that though you may believe those to be the facts, I do not know a single gay couple with children. Your facts do not match my personal experience. 

How many of the gay couples that you know have children?

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 5:08:59 PM#158
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

They are not all adopted. The blond woman birthed the little blond girl, or at least one of the kids, I think it was the little girl.

So your argument is, gay marriage would be ok for lesbians, but not gay men?

 

In the US , the number of children in gay and lesbian homes was between six and 10 million in 2000.

 

that's a lot of children, don't you think?

 

One third of lesbian couples and one fifth of gay male couples have children.

 

I would call a third or a fith, significant. You might not.

It may be counter intuative, but those are the facts.

 I would consider all those homes to be broken homes.

Where is the father?

 

Each one of those a tragedy.

 

Not the end of the world of course, not by a long shot. But certainly not my optimum outcome.

And certainly I am not looking to use marriage to encourage broken homes. As I said before, the purpose of marriage is to encourage the exact opposite of this.

 

I would also say that though you may believe those to be the facts, I do not know a single gay couple with children. Your facts do not match my personal experience. 

How many of the gay couples that you know have children?

 

I don't currently know any gay couples.

According to your logic, I guess there are no gay couples.

We can simply end this discussion now, since gay couples don't even exist.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 5:09:48 PM#159
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

I don't currently know any gay couples.

 

 And boy does it show.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 5:11:48 PM#160
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

They are not all adopted. The blond woman birthed the little blond girl, or at least one of the kids, I think it was the little girl.

So your argument is, gay marriage would be ok for lesbians, but not gay men?

 

In the US , the number of children in gay and lesbian homes was between six and 10 million in 2000.

 

that's a lot of children, don't you think?

 

One third of lesbian couples and one fifth of gay male couples have children.

 

I would call a third or a fith, significant. You might not.

It may be counter intuative, but those are the facts.

 I would consider all those homes to be broken homes.

Where is the father?

 

 

Well, in the gay homes they have two fathers.

Studies show that having gay parents, offer children more stability than a single parent home.

In other words, it's good to have two loving parents, in the same home. Makes sense, two is better than one.

Doesn't really matter if those parents are a man and a woman, two men, or two women. Beats one woman, or one man taking care of a child.

Obviously one person is going to have a harder time taking care of a child than two people.

 

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