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Religion & Politics  » New York signs Gay Marriage Law

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227 posts found
  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 8:21:16 PM#121
Originally posted by baff

Of all the married couples I know.

Only one does not have children. But I fully expect them to soon.

 

So the courts can't do anything about child support and child custody unless they are married?

Marriage has nothing to do LEGALLY with children.

Courts determine child support and custody every day.

Married, not married, you still gotta pay child support, you still have to argue for custody.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 8:24:15 PM#122
Originally posted by Zindaihas

Unfortunately, polygamists, incestuous couples and bestialists are still being left out in the cold.  Maybe someday true equality will come to all.

'

This is not an accurate statement. Bestiality laws apply equally to all, gay and straight.

Polygamy laws apply equally to all, gay and straight.

It is a specious argument that because gay marriage is legal, anything else should be legal.

you might as well say if they legalize gay marriage they will have to legalize murder because it will discriminate against murderers.

True equality is coming to all. It already has in New York.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 8:35:08 PM#123
Originally posted by C-B-M

There is no basis for preventing any of the above conditions, based on the arguments of homosexuals.

Bestiality is not harming the animal.  If we have to go on the argument of "non-consensual," then we should not have any pets, either, as there was no consent, regardless of whether YOU personally think it benefits the animal.  It is established that we don't need consent from animals.  Therefore, the question only hangs on whether it is acceptable to marry an animal.  Since it "doesn't affect you," I don't see why not.

Polygamy is also acceptable because "who are you to stop people who love each other from getting married?"  The fact that YOU think that multiple people cannot sustain such a relationship is irrelevant.  You are not here to judge the quality of a relationship.  Therefore, multiple people can get married.

Incest is also acceptable, since it is irrelevant whether the children will have any higher rate of problems.  Proof?  It is permissible for people with Down's syndrome to get married and have children, KNOWING that their offspring will have a high rate of having Down's syndrome.  Women are permitted to have children at any age they want, even though we KNOW that the older a woman is, the higher risk she has of having a complicated pregnancy or a baby with medical problems.  Therefore, incestuous relationships are to be allowed to culminate in marriage.

 

Incest is acceptable in some states, and has been for a very long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest

According to the Max Planck Institute for Foreign and International Criminal Law,

The systems without criminal incest provisions include France (in accordance with the Napoleonic Code of 1811) and the legal systems influenced by French law (the Netherlands, Turkey, and the modern law of the Ivory Coast), Russia, China, Spain, Israel, and the US states of Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Michigan.

 

The only real concern is the LEGAL aspects of marriage. That's the "affect you" part. Like, should someone get a tax break, which affects everyone that pays taxes.

If you want to start your own religion, and marry your dog in that religion, no one is going to stop you. When you go to put your dog on your employers health insurance plan, or try to file joint tax returns, that's going to be a problem.

Gay people get married all the time in Churches where they have a religious ceremony, but the State doesn't LEGALLY recognize the marriage.

 

I think there is no good argument for LEGAL marriage.

It only gets you a very few things you cannot get  otherwise. 

1. Alimony

2. Tax breaks

3. Health insurance through your spouses employer.

 

I think we can find better solutions to all of these issues than marriage.

If we get rid of these three things, there is no need for LEGAL marriage.

We could simply leave it up to religions, or philosophical movements.

Get married, don't, whatever, hat's up to you,  the State doesn't need to spend resources on it to make it "Legal".

 

1. With no alimony in place, people will know that they must prepare for their own future. It's their responsibility to have a career or a way to make money if something happens to their relationship. Hell, spouses die not just divorce, so this just makes good sense no matter what.

2. I support the Fair Tax.

3. Health insurance should not be tied to employment. Your employer doesn't buy your groceries for you, why should they buy your health insurance?

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/28/11 9:00:25 PM#124
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

Of all the married couples I know.

Only one does not have children. But I fully expect them to soon.

 

So the courts can't do anything about child support and child custody unless they are married?

Marriage has nothing to do LEGALLY with children.

Courts determine child support and custody every day.

Married, not married, you still gotta pay child support, you still have to argue for custody.

 Not really a big issue for gay marriages.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 9:14:28 PM#125
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

Of all the married couples I know.

Only one does not have children. But I fully expect them to soon.

 

So the courts can't do anything about child support and child custody unless they are married?

Marriage has nothing to do LEGALLY with children.

Courts determine child support and custody every day.

Married, not married, you still gotta pay child support, you still have to argue for custody.

 Not really a big issue for gay marriages.

 

It's not an issue for marriage, period.

Courts deal with child custody and child support every day.

Doesn't matter if you are married or not.

Married or not, you still have to pay child support.

Married or not, the Court can take yoru kids if you don't take care of them, or determine who should have custody.

Children are not an issue of LEGAL marriage.

the issue of children is dealt with by laws of custody and child support. Marriage not required.

 

  Zindaihas

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 5109

'If you put govt in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 yrs there'd be a shortage of sand'~M. Friedman

6/28/11 9:16:07 PM#126

Oh and necrophiliacs too.  I forgot about them.  Stop persecuting them please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tK6YIAX1jg

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/28/11 9:30:08 PM#127
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

It's not an issue for marriage, period. 

 Clearly it is an issue for many marriages.

Things that are "not an issue" don't go to court.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 9:37:14 PM#128
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

It's not an issue for marriage, period. 

 Clearly it is an issue for many marriages.

Things that are "not an issue" don't go to court.

 

The children make it an issue, not the marriage.

You can sue for child custody, no marriage required.

You can sue for child support, no marriage required.

The issue is the children, not the marriage.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/28/11 9:42:54 PM#129

You seem to fail to grasp the connection between marriage and children.

Almost every marriage has children.

 

So issues involving children can reasonably be expected to occour in hetero sexual marriages, just as they can reasonably be expected not to occour in gay marriages.

 

 

 

It's one of the more obvious and major differences between the two.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/28/11 9:55:01 PM#130
Originally posted by baff

You seem to fail to grasp the connection between marriage and children.

Almost every marriage has children.

 

So issues involving children can reasonably be expected to occour in hetero sexual marriages, just as they can reasonably be expected not to occour in gay marriages.

 

 

 

It's one of the more obvious and major differences between the two.

 

THe marriage is irrelevant.

the laws for child custody and child support apply whether you are married or not.

You don't need "marriage" for issues involving children.

Judges every day decide cases fo child support and child custody, and the parents are not married.

It's like saying you need marriage for laws against domestic violence.

You don't.

You can't beat someone you're living with. Doesnt' matter if you're married or not.

Marriage is not required for issues involving children.

You can sue for child custody, no marriage required.

You can sue for child support, no marriage required.

 

If the issue is children, then the issue is children.

has nothing to do with being married.

Couples that have children also tend to celebrate Valentines day.

Valentines day has notthing to with child support, or child custody.

 

"WASHINGTON — Unmarried mothers gave birth to 4 out of every 10 babies born in the United States in 2007, a share that is increasing rapidly both here and abroad, according to government figures released Wednesday. "

 

That's 40% as of 2007, and rising. Marriage is not required for having children. Marriage is not required for child support, or child custody.

 

 

You are living in the past:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/03/AR2007030300841.html

As marriage with children becomes an exception rather than the norm, social scientists say it is also becoming the self-selected province of the college-educated and the affluent. The working class and the poor, meanwhile, increasingly steer away from marriage, while living together and bearing children out of wedlock.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 1:41:27 AM#131
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

You don't need "marriage" for issues involving children.

 

 You don't "need" marriage if you are gay either. Or if you are a lorry driver.

It doesn't change the fact that almost all married couples have children and almost no gay marriages do.

 

Putting your head in the sand won't make this change. Thinking marriage is old fashioned, doesn't change that hundreds of millions of people worldwide have done it and enormous amounts of people will continue to do it.

Marriage is synonymous with raising a family. It goes hand in hand. Not because it "has to". .But because it does.

Grass doesn't have to be green. It doesn't "need" to be. I can dye it blue if I like. But almost all grass will still be green. Because it is.

People who go to pubs drink tend to drink beer. they don't have to, many of them choose not to, but it would be a pretty shit pub that didn't stock it. When people go to pubs, they expect to be able to buy beer. It's not a requirement for being pub. A pub doesn't "need" to sell beer. But that's just how it is. Pubs sell beer.

Married people raise families.

 And if you wanted to start a bar that did not serve beer or catered for people who typically didn't want beer, you would call it by a different name. A wine bar or cocktail lounge for example. Or a coffee shop perhaps.

 

The world isn't going to stop getting married and raising familes because you think it's old fashioned. your views are quite irrelevant to the matter. It's all those people who get married and raise children that are the decider in this. Not your siily arguments.

 

Sure, it doesn't "have to". sure, tt isn't "a requirement" of marriage to raise a family, it's just what almost all married people do and what almost all gay married people do not do.

The difference is still there as bright as day.

 

What kind of a twisted loveless individual thinks people get married because they want alimony? Honestly mate, you don't half talk some shit.

 

I take it you haven't found the right girl yet?

  generals3

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/04
Posts: 3306

6/29/11 6:17:56 AM#132
Originally posted by C-B-M

Bestiality is not harming the animal.  If we have to go on the argument of "non-consensual," then we should not have any pets, either, as there was no consent, regardless of whether YOU personally think it benefits the animal.  It is established that we don't need consent from animals.  Therefore, the question only hangs on whether it is acceptable to marry an animal.  Since it "doesn't affect you," I don't see why not.

Are you seriously comparing the ownership of animals with marriage? Come on, even you could do better than that. There is no point even arguing here because you made 0 point. Try comparing marriage with marriage. I see no consent neither any legal use for the marriage with an animal.

And yes consent is a part of the modern day marriage concept. We don't live in a society with forced marriages anymore.

How am i even supposed to take people who make such ridiculous comparisons seriously.

Polygamy is also acceptable because "who are you to stop people who love each other from getting married?"  The fact that YOU think that multiple people cannot sustain such a relationship is irrelevant.  You are not here to judge the quality of a relationship.  Therefore, multiple people can get married.

Well go petition in favor of it. Honestly i don't care. I won't stop you. Personally i view marriage as a way to celebrate a commitment to a relationship. After all isn't that the point of marrying? bringing your relationship to a next level?

Incest is also acceptable, since it is irrelevant whether the children will have any higher rate of problems.  Proof?  It is permissible for people with Down's syndrome to get married and have children, KNOWING that their offspring will have a high rate of having Down's syndrome.  Women are permitted to have children at any age they want, even though we KNOW that the older a woman is, the higher risk she has of having a complicated pregnancy or a baby with medical problems.  Therefore, incestuous relationships are to be allowed to culminate in marriage.

So? they are permited to do it. Doesn't mean i agree with it.

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 9:59:38 AM#133
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

You don't need "marriage" for issues involving children.

 

 You don't "need" marriage if you are gay either. Or if you are a lorry driver.

It doesn't change the fact that almost all married couples have children and almost no gay marriages do.

 

Putting your head in the sand won't make this change. Thinking marriage is old fashioned, doesn't change that hundreds of millions of people worldwide have done it and enormous amounts of people will continue to do it.

Marriage is synonymous with raising a family. It goes hand in hand. Not because it "has to". .But because it does.

Grass doesn't have to be green. It doesn't "need" to be. I can dye it blue if I like. But almost all grass will still be green. Because it is.

People who go to pubs drink tend to drink beer. they don't have to, many of them choose not to, but it would be a pretty shit pub that didn't stock it. When people go to pubs, they expect to be able to buy beer. It's not a requirement for being pub. A pub doesn't "need" to sell beer. But that's just how it is. Pubs sell beer.

Married people raise families.

 And if you wanted to start a bar that did not serve beer or catered for people who typically didn't want beer, you would call it by a different name. A wine bar or cocktail lounge for example. Or a coffee shop perhaps.

 

The world isn't going to stop getting married and raising familes because you think it's old fashioned. your views are quite irrelevant to the matter. It's all those people who get married and raise children that are the decider in this. Not your siily arguments.

 

Sure, it doesn't "have to". sure, tt isn't "a requirement" of marriage to raise a family, it's just what almost all married people do and what almost all gay married people do not do.

The difference is still there as bright as day.

 

What kind of a twisted loveless individual thinks people get married because they want alimony? Honestly mate, you don't half talk some shit.

 

I take it you haven't found the right girl yet?

 

You're missing the point, either purposely, or because you can't grasp it.

You can get married for any reason you want, including love, your religious beliefs, etc.

None of that is a law that applies to other people.

We're discussing laws that apply to everyone.

Because the law allows gay people to get married, does not mean  you cannot marry for love, or any other reason.

Because teh LAW only provides for Alimony in a marriage, does not mean that is the REASON people get married.

The argument about children is specious.

It has nothing to do with children.

Marriage is not a requirement for child support.

Marriage is not a requirement for custody rights.

Why do you keep bring up children, when discussing the LEGAL rights of marriage.

LEGALLY marraige does not give you the right to child support.

LEGALLY marriage does not give you the righ to child custody.

CHILDREN give you the right to custody, or child support.

Marraige is not part of the LEGAL issue involved in having  a child with someone.

So what are you talking about?

You are not forced to pay child support because you are married.

You are not forced to relinquish custody of your child because you are married.

Those issues are dealt with, by LAW, regardless of whether you are married or not married.

Some married couples have children, some don't have children.

Elderly people taht get married in their 60's for example (happens all the time) typically do not have children.

Some people that have children get married some do not.

I've shown you the statistics, 40% of births occur OUT OF WEDLOCK. So it isnt' marriage creating babies.

Some gay couples have children, some do not, JUST LIKE MARRIED COUPLES.

Some gay couples have children through adoptions,  or previous marriages. some lesbians make them the old fashioned way by getting pregnant, or gay men make them the old fashioned way by getting a woman pregnant. Yep, they can still do that even though they are gay. Gay doesn't mean sterile.

 

 

There is nothing special about marriage when it comes to children. The LAWS that relate to children do not require marriage.

The LAWS that relate to marriage, do not require children.

 

The ONLY thing you can do if you are married as opposed to NOT being married, is sue for ALIMONY.

 

The need for marriage for gays is the exact same as the need for straight couples.

They get the exact same thing, the right to Alimony.

 

All the issues about children are not handled by MARRIAGE LAWS. They are handled by CUSTODY LAWS, and CHILD SUPPORT LAWS.

Marriage is not an issue in determing CHILD SUPPORT, or CUSTODY. 

CHILDREN are not an issue when determing ALIMONY. Children are handled by CHILD SUPPORT, no marriage involved in that.

 

 

  Ihmotepp

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Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 10:10:14 AM#134
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

You don't need "marriage" for issues involving children.

 

 You don't "need" marriage if you are gay either. Or if you are a lorry driver.

 

This is simply not correct.

Gay people get married for all the exact same reasons as straight people, and that includes raising a family.

Here's a picture of Rosie O'donnell, her wife, and her kids. Three of the kids are adopted, one of them was born to Rosie's wife with artificial insemination.

 

they married for the exact same reasons any straight couple would marry. Saying otherwise doesnt' make it true.

 

If you disagree, then why do you think they got married?

 

  Ihmotepp

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Posts: 14557

6/29/11 10:22:16 AM#135

Ok, this raises an issue I didn't think about, so I'm going to have to admit I was wrong on some issues.

 

I think marriage can give you some child custody rights, which means gays and lesbians need marriage more than ever. Although I'm not sure, not really an expert in gay child custody battles.

 

For example, a lesbian couple has a child with artificial insemination.

they raise the child for 10 years, both act as the child's Mom, and they both love the child very much, as any parents would.

then they split up.

Does non biological Mother have a right to visitation, and or custody?

I'm thinking marriage will help with this issue, but not really sure.

 

  baff

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Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 1:31:44 PM#136
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

You don't need "marriage" for issues involving children.

 

 You don't "need" marriage if you are gay either. Or if you are a lorry driver.

 

This is simply not correct.

Gay people get married for all the exact same reasons as straight people, and that includes raising a family.

 
I wouldn't dream of disputing that. However, it's seems intuative that this is the exception rather than the norm.  
Just as straight people getting married and not having kids is the exception rather than the norm.
 
I'm not attempting to say that gay people raising a family shouldn't be able to enter into a formal institution that recognises this and that other people should not pay them the usual respects accorded to people who seek to.
It's all the other ones that are taking the piss.
All those who wish to receive the tax breaks and kudos associated with marriage (not to mention expensive weddings!) without actually engaging in the core expectations/obligations of the social contract implicit in the use of that word.
  baff

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Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 1:48:57 PM#137
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Ok, this raises an issue I didn't think about, so I'm going to have to admit I was wrong on some issues.

 

I think marriage can give you some child custody rights, which means gays and lesbians need marriage more than ever. Although I'm not sure, not really an expert in gay child custody battles.

 

For example, a lesbian couple has a child with artificial insemination.

they raise the child for 10 years, both act as the child's Mom, and they both love the child very much, as any parents would.

then they split up.

Does non biological Mother have a right to visitation, and or custody?

I'm thinking marriage will help with this issue, but not really sure.

 

 I think really, that if you are looking for marriage as a method to confer legal obligation for the purpose of post nuptial courtroom dispute, that you have missed the whole point of marriage. I also think that as many have said including I think you, common law marriage infers all the same legal rights already. The act of "getting married" doesn't increase those.

There is more to marriage than a legal contract. It is a social contract. If you are intent on entering into a marriage for legal rights to money or child access post break up, you haven't really got into the spirit of it.

 

The idea is that we use marriage as a social contract that encourages us and supports us in staying together, not as a method of legal adjudication for when we have split up. 

Married people do split up of course. But that is not an example of marriage so much as it is an example of a failed marriage.

  Ihmotepp

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Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 3:52:18 PM#138
Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Ok, this raises an issue I didn't think about, so I'm going to have to admit I was wrong on some issues.

 

I think marriage can give you some child custody rights, which means gays and lesbians need marriage more than ever. Although I'm not sure, not really an expert in gay child custody battles.

 

For example, a lesbian couple has a child with artificial insemination.

they raise the child for 10 years, both act as the child's Mom, and they both love the child very much, as any parents would.

then they split up.

Does non biological Mother have a right to visitation, and or custody?

I'm thinking marriage will help with this issue, but not really sure.

 

 I think really, that if you are looking for marriage as a method to confer legal obligation for the purpose of post nuptial courtroom dispute, that you have missed the whole point of marriage. I also think that as many have said including I think you, common law marriage infers all the same legal rights already. The act of "getting married" doesn't increase those.

There is more to marriage than a legal contract. It is a social contract. If you are intent on entering into a marriage for legal rights to money or child access post break up, you haven't really got into the spirit of it.

 

The idea is that we use marriage as a social contract that encourages us and supports us in staying together, not as a method of legal adjudication for when we have split up. 

Married people do split up of course. But that is not an example of marriage so much as it is an example of a failed marriage.

 

We're discussing the LAW, and what should be the LAW.

That has nothing to do with teh "spirit of marriage".

If you don't want the courts involved, then marriage can be whatevr you want.

We're talking about WHEN SHOULD THE COURTS BE INVOLVED IN MARRIAGE.

And I am telling you, the ONLY reason for the Courts to be involved is ALIMONY.

There  is nothing else for the COURTS to do for Marriage.

They can't enforce the "spirit of marriage".

They don't need marriage for CHILD CUSTODY, and CHILD SUPPORT. Those laws are generally the same, married or not married.

 

What should be the LAW?

that doesn't have anything to do with the spirit of marriage.

Police nor Courts enforce the "spirit of marriage".

If the COURT is not involved, then it's not an issue because no one is denying anyone rights, no one is forcing anything on anyone.

It's only when the COURT is involved, that someone is being denied a right, or forcing something on someone else.

 

Why are you mixing the two issues?

The only LEGAL thing you get from Marriage is ALIMONY.

That's what the Courts can enforce.

If it's not enforceable by the Court, then it's none of my business what you do in your marriage, or what the spirit of it is, etc., etc.

Whatever you want the "point" of marriage to be is irrelevant if it's not enforceable in a COURT.

Make marriage about support, love, rainbows, devil worship, disco dancing, raising children together, whatever.

Why would I care if you're not going to enforce it in court?

that has nothing to do with me, or anyone else.

 

the LEGAL system affects everyone. What you want to make of your marraige only affects you and your spouse.

 

Common law marriage is different in every Jurisdiction.

It does not exist at all in California, for example. Either you are married, with a marriage certificate from the State, or you are not married. PERIOD.

In my Jurisdiction, you must hold yourself out to be a married couple. You must act married, and tell people you are married.

If you say, we are not married, we are not husband and wife, we just live together, then you are not married, no matter how long you live together.

If however, you tell everyone you're married, you can be deemed by the State to BE married. Filing joint returns as married can do it too.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/29/11 4:05:10 PM#139

You might only be discusssing the law, but for me that is the least important part of marriage.

The only legal part of marriage that I personally have any real concern with is immigration rights.

  Ihmotepp

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Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/29/11 4:05:20 PM#140
Originally posted by baff

There is more to marriage than a legal contract. It is a social contract. If you are intent on entering into a marriage for legal rights to money or child access post break up, you haven't really got into the spirit of it.

 

 

A contract, any contract, has no meaning at all if there are no consequences for breaking the contract. If breaking the contract has no reprecussions at all, then why do you need a contract?

You don't. Because you are essentially in the exact same state with the contract, or without it. The contract in that case would be pointless.

Say we remove all legal aspects of marriage, including Alimony.

What would a marriage certificate from teh State be required for?

There would be no reason to get it.

You could use it to prove you are married. For what? There's no legal recourse for being married, so why would you need to prove it?

Why would the State even spend the money on paper to print the certificate in that case? What would be the point?

 

You go get the certificate and you're married. NOTHING legally changes at all. You get divorced. NOTHING legally changes at all.

What would be the point of the marriage certificate?

Why would you get it from the State if NOTHING legally changes with or with out it?

 

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