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Religion & Politics  » New York signs Gay Marriage Law

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227 posts found
  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/25/11 3:36:35 PM#21
Originally posted by Hekket
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket

Meh.

I'm neutural on gay marriage. I guess i'm  happy for'em. Yay?

 

you know the saying, beware what you wish for.

5-7 years from now there are going to be gays in divorce court thinking, stupid gay marriage law!

 

Here's a question.

You get gay married. You stay together for a long time. You split up. Judge awards one of the spouses Alimony.

Spouse moves to State that doesn't not recognize gay marriage.

No more alimony?

 

Don't move to another state? 

I don't care really because I'm not gay. Why should I care?

 

It's just an intellectual exercise. I don't live in NY, and I'm not gay, so none of it applies to me personally.

but you kind of missed the hypothetical.

The person PAYING the alimony would move to get out of paying, not the person RECEIVING the alimony.

 

Ah. Well...I suppose then gays shouldn't be eligible for alimony then as there's no real answer to it. Unless you legalize gay marriage on a federal level. (and we all know that'll never ever happen)

 

Actually, it's pretty much gauranteed. We know when it will happen, just not if it will happen sooner than that.

The under 30 crowd, those people right now that are under 30, overwhelmingly approve of gay marriage.

Once the over 30 crowd dies, that's that.

It is a markedly generational issue. The younger generation doesn't even blink an eye at gay marriage. it's no big deal for them, and they feel no need to stop it.

  Hekket

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 921

6/25/11 3:44:45 PM#22
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket

Meh.

I'm neutural on gay marriage. I guess i'm  happy for'em. Yay?

 

you know the saying, beware what you wish for.

5-7 years from now there are going to be gays in divorce court thinking, stupid gay marriage law!

 

Here's a question.

You get gay married. You stay together for a long time. You split up. Judge awards one of the spouses Alimony.

Spouse moves to State that doesn't not recognize gay marriage.

No more alimony?

 

Don't move to another state? 

I don't care really because I'm not gay. Why should I care?

 

It's just an intellectual exercise. I don't live in NY, and I'm not gay, so none of it applies to me personally.

but you kind of missed the hypothetical.

The person PAYING the alimony would move to get out of paying, not the person RECEIVING the alimony.

 

Ah. Well...I suppose then gays shouldn't be eligible for alimony then as there's no real answer to it. Unless you legalize gay marriage on a federal level. (and we all know that'll never ever happen)

 

Actually, it's pretty much gauranteed. We know when it will happen, just not if it will happen sooner than that.

The under 30 crowd, those people right now that are under 30, overwhelmingly approve of gay marriage.

Once the over 30 crowd dies, that's that.

It is a markedly generational issue. The younger generation doesn't even blink an eye at gay marriage. it's no big deal for them, and they feel no need to stop it.

 

We'll see. But I still have my doubts.

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 2012

6/25/11 4:25:20 PM#23
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Hekket

Meh.

I'm neutural on gay marriage. I guess i'm  happy for'em. Yay?

 

you know the saying, beware what you wish for.

5-7 years from now there are going to be gays in divorce court thinking, stupid gay marriage law!

 

Here's a question.

You get gay married. You stay together for a long time. You split up. Judge awards one of the spouses Alimony.

Spouse moves to State that doesn't not recognize gay marriage.

No more alimony?

 

That's just humans for you, and gays should have the same right to be miserable as the rest of us.  Congrats to all the same-sex couples crazy enough to want to get married, it was never any of my business or anyone else's, and I'm happy for you.

 

As for the second part, good question, as far as where the divorce probably would have to take place, pretty sure safest bet would be to divorce in New York, but after that, there are laws that require states to acknowledge the laws of other states (interstate commerce?  Others?  I forget and I'm too lazy to look it up.)  Alimony  might or might not fall under it.  It's an important issue, too, especially when child support might also be involved.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/25/11 9:14:31 PM#24
Originally posted by Hekket

We'll see. But I still have my doubts.

It's a 50-50 proposition, actually.  For example, liberals thought that once they used the Supreme Court to legislate abortion, that would be it because everyone would just gradually accept that abortion was no big deal.  Instead, the opposite has occurred.  Certainly in the years immediately following abortion did become more normalized.  But now, decades later and a generation afterwards, the public support for abortion has reversed.

It's probably true that in the immediate future, gay marriage will become normalized, as well.  And in the same way, the first few states to have it had it in place via the judiciary, not via legislation or referendum.  Then again, California has a gay marriage ban (that is currently under appeal).

If we go by "what the young generation" feels, they don't even care about marriage in general.  Meaning, it's unsurprising they don't defend marriage because they have been so indoctrinated that divorce is no big deal that they actually don't think much of marriage.  They just shack up.  But there's no telling what will happen a generation from now.

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/25/11 9:56:32 PM#25

Actually the majoirty of people still support reproduction rights for women.

The anti-abortion crowd are just extremely violent. Once the old guard are out of the way I think fairness will win.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  Zindaihas

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 5109

'If you put govt in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 yrs there'd be a shortage of sand'~M. Friedman

6/25/11 10:09:54 PM#26
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

Actually the majoirty of people still support reproduction rights for women.

The anti-abortion crowd are just extremely violent. Once the old guard are out of the way I think fairness will win.

 The first half of you name is very appropriate because you are the king of exaggeration.  Gays have been more persecuted than native Americans, slaves or women?  People against abortion are extremely violent?  Wake up and smell reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tK6YIAX1jg

  C-B-M

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/11
Posts: 2661

6/25/11 11:07:59 PM#27

Actually, polls now show a majority of Americans as being anti-abortion, but that's OK if you think otherwise.

  Finwe

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/03
Posts: 3112

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

6/26/11 9:37:12 AM#28
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

Actually the majoirty of people still support reproduction rights for women.

The anti-abortion crowd are just extremely violent. Once the old guard are out of the way I think fairness will win.

 

Reproduction rights? Abortion is the extermination of possible reproduction...God. Damn pro-abortion people coming up with more and more ridiculous terms each time.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979

  Finwe

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/03
Posts: 3112

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

6/26/11 9:48:08 AM#29
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/25/us-gaymarriage-newyork-idUSTRE75N5ZA20110625

About time if you ask me. 

The King would never make the claim: "For liberty and justice for all*." and leave such a huge footnote. What America did to the aboriginal people, slaves, women, and workers pales to the persecution of the LGBT community; based mostly on the time line of it all.

Welcome to the 21st century America.

The King welcomes you, and will bide his reign of total subjugation.

 

To reiterate what Zind said two posts above me. That is one of the most asinine, absurd, and completely ridiculously retarded statements I've ever heard. Native americans were exterminated in large part by genocide. Even before the foundation of the U.S. as a sovereign nation. Their lands were stolen, culture destroyed, people murdered. But...Oh yah. That's soooo what the gay's are going through. Native Americans, slaves. But women and workers? One because their pay is shit, the other because they can't vote? What weird comparisons... But really? Comparing the gay movement to the suffering that many native americans and blacks went through? Fucking really? Are you that much of a jackass to not see such a huge difference? Native americans...Genocide, rape, cultural destruction, land stolen and destroyed. Gays...Cultural intolerance. Slaves. In many cases incapable of acquiring freedom, lifelong indebtment to their master. In some situations mistreatment via physical beatings, rape, and death. Gays...Can't marry. My God...You're a moron. I really hate personally insulting somebody in a fairly civil discussion. But you really compared a group of people that rally together based on their sexual orientation and haven't been culturally accepted, to groups of people that have gone through horrible atrocities to in some situations, themselves and their family, or to expand to their entire culture. You're a fucking moron. None of my family has native american ancestry, or to indentured servants nor slaves. But to me...Even me...That's damn offensive. P.S. Welcome to the twenty first century? Ancient aboriginals, greeks, romans, gauls, all had cases of same sex sodomy in their culture? How is this anyway new?

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/26/11 11:07:50 AM#30
Originally posted by C-B-M

Actually, polls now show a majority of Americans as being anti-abortion, but that's OK if you think otherwise.

Prove it. I've seen otherwise.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/26/11 11:16:53 AM#31
Originally posted by C-B-M

Actually, polls now show a majority of Americans as being anti-abortion, but that's OK if you think otherwise.

 Really? I'd always assumed that it was just the Catholics.

 

I'm not a particular fan of gay marriage, but I can't honestly imagine it not being adopted across the entire U.S.A. within the next 3-8 years. The ball is already well in motion.

  King_Kumquat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/26/11 11:22:22 AM#32
Originally posted by Finwe
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/25/us-gaymarriage-newyork-idUSTRE75N5ZA20110625

About time if you ask me. 

The King would never make the claim: "For liberty and justice for all*." and leave such a huge footnote. What America did to the aboriginal people, slaves, women, and workers pales to the persecution of the LGBT community; based mostly on the time line of it all.

Welcome to the 21st century America.

The King welcomes you, and will bide his reign of total subjugation.

 

To reiterate what Zind said two posts above me. That is one of the most asinine, absurd, and completely ridiculously retarded statements I've ever heard. Native americans were exterminated in large part by genocide. Even before the foundation of the U.S. as a sovereign nation. Their lands were stolen, culture destroyed, people murdered. But...Oh yah. That's soooo what the gay's are going through. Native Americans, slaves. But women and workers? One because their pay is shit, the other because they can't vote? What weird comparisons... But really? Comparing the gay movement to the suffering that many native americans and blacks went through? Fucking really? Are you that much of a jackass to not see such a huge difference? Native americans...Genocide, rape, cultural destruction, land stolen and destroyed. Gays...Cultural intolerance. Slaves. In many cases incapable of acquiring freedom, lifelong indebtment to their master. In some situations mistreatment via physical beatings, rape, and death. Gays...Can't marry. My God...You're a moron. I really hate personally insulting somebody in a fairly civil discussion. But you really compared a group of people that rally together based on their sexual orientation and haven't been culturally accepted, to groups of people that have gone through horrible atrocities to in some situations, themselves and their family, or to expand to their entire culture. You're a fucking moron. None of my family has native american ancestry, or to indentured servants nor slaves. But to me...Even me...That's damn offensive. P.S. Welcome to the twenty first century? Ancient aboriginals, greeks, romans, gauls, all had cases of same sex sodomy in their culture? How is this anyway new?

Look here you fucking case work file proof of the need for abortion.

You hypocrite who probably uses God's name in vain constantly as you flail violently at your inadequate sized penis to try and reason why you loathe your pathetic self and to justify your inequated hate towards those you don't understand.

Discrimination, supression of rights, and demonizing of others is probably the only fucking grasp of equality you're even half way aware of.

Is marriage a part of the American culture? Is the right to marriage equal to people in this land? No. The answer to both is not. Gays and lesbians, who are Americans, many great Christians- & more so than you'll ever be, are denied a basic human right on their native soil. So your first ramble decimated, thanks for playing. But the King isn't done yet.

Next... Have gays been raped by straight people? Happens a lot in Texas as a way to show'em. Have they been murdered? Have they been forced to commit suicide? Yes. Have you not paid attention to the things happneing around you in the year 2011? No. You're one of those people who is purpousfully ignorant. And I hope you fucking die.

Still if you're ass enough to read this through.

Your offended because you're stupid.

I stand by my statements and I'm willing to have you check them against their equals. Homosexuality isn't something that's "okay" to have a bias against. The Native Americans, the Blacks, women, and workers know what it's like to have people who mis-read the bible and twists God's word to justify their own bigotry first hand. 

But the twentith century showed progress on their struggles.

Thus, why I'm excited to see that there are people fighting against hate in the 21st century. That footnote I was talking about wasn't a direct comparison, but then again you're a well proved idiot. It was stating oversight for leaving the LGBT community out the last century.

I'm happy to do my part, and I'd be willing to make you choke on your own fucking teeth if it meant that I could spare someone who has a different sexuial orientation other than my own any sort of petty judgement an internet fuckwit like you. You're going to go to hell a hateful little child molester with a hard drive filled with gay lolicon. Because it's always your type who do the true evils in this world.

Now quit hating, leave your tiny penis alone, and please shut your fucking mouth before you try and talk with adults again. You're terrible at debate, and probably every thing else in life too. Get a job. It'll fix that desire you have to spout off like an uneducated halfwit in the productive hours of the day.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/26/11 11:37:16 AM#33
Originally posted by C-B-M

Actually, polls now show a majority of Americans as being anti-abortion, but that's OK if you think otherwise.

 

Jeff Brumley's Blog

A recent poll shows that anti-abortion activists have their work cut out for them and that some of their historic supporters — among them Catholics — are some of the areas they have the most work to do.

This stuff is pretty stunning. The Public Religion Research Institute poll found that a majority of religious Americans favor abortion rights in some way. Here's a paragraph from the study:

"At least two-thirds of religiously unaffiliated Americans (69%), white mainline Protestants (67%), and black Protestants (66%) say abortion should be legal in all or most cases. A majority (54%) of all Catholics say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, including 51% of Latino Catholics."

The only religious grouping whose majority opposes abortion rights, the study says, are white evangelical Protestants.

 

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/26/11 11:47:24 AM#34

I don't think it's to do with human rights matey. I think it's to do with civil rights.

Marriage offers you a certain amount of civil protection under the law. It recognises the family unit.

 

For myself I'm not really up for it.

I have two core reasons behind this.

The word "marriage" as opposed to say "civil partnership" is deeply connotated with religipon. And despite that there are many gay religious people, or that historically the church has offered sanctuary to gay people throughout those less tolerant ages...

There are a lot of religious people out there that consider this sort of thing heretical. It offends them in a similar sort of way that burning the Koran offends many muslims. It's a form of heresey to them as it cuts against some of their very core beliefs. It shows them a level of deliberate disrespect that they have done nothing to deserve.

 

I just see no point in riling up so many people just so a few gay people can have their moment of drama. It really isn't a point of civil rights or human rights because they can still be married in all but name. Their rights to live together in a state recognised union, or their rights to live together in a union recognised by their own church and religious group remain unaffected.

All they have to do is call it something else. Call it marriage and insist that cermonies by law have to take place in any church and you are denying the human rights of those religious people to have freedom of worship. It's quite unecessary. it's just more gay drama. Gay people wantiing to stick their gayness up other peoples noses because they love attention.

So that's my first concern.

The second would be that I believe extra civil rights should not be granted for wanting to live with another person,. Only for starting a family.

If I live with my mum and we wish to formalise our comitment to eachother till death do us part etc... I get no tax breaks. But two gay guys doing the same do.

The difference between us is that the two gay guys are sticking their cocks in each other and i am not sticking it to my mum. (Honest).

 

I do not believe the act of putting your knob in makes you more deserving than me. I do not recognise that someone having a sexual relationship with another member of the same sex makes them a more important member of society than me.

I think gay marriage is an injustice.

 

If anyone could have a civil partnership, that would be fine. But as long as it is dependant on sexual relations, it's wrong. It's a question of civil rights. Being gay and making a big fuss about it... the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil. But complaining a lot isn't enough reason to give somone more than the others.

So STFU please.

Gay people in my country are hardly an oppresed minority. They don't need me to stick up for them. Should they ever, most likely I will. This is not one of those occasions that warrants it.

 

 

 

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/26/11 11:52:18 AM#35
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
The only religious grouping whose majority opposes abortion rights, the study says, are white evangelical Protestants.

 Catholics mate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

"Every sperm is sacred".

 

Abortion is legal in all the protestant countries.

  King_Kumquat

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Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/26/11 11:58:15 AM#36
Originally posted by baff

 

I do not believe the act of putting your knob in makes you more deserving than me. I do not recognise that someone having a sexual relationship with another member of the same sex makes them a more important member of society than me.

I think gay marriage is an injustice.

  

You don't get murdered for doing that tho' do you?

As for religion, even when Christianity was at it's most pure~ religion was second to legal issues.

Marriage entitles a partner a lot of legal rights; that you as a son with your mother are entitled to regardless.

I agree it's civil, but the attack against those who think just a little different is a human rights issue. It really doesn't matter what the difference is. 


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  Ihmotepp

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Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/26/11 12:14:45 PM#37
Originally posted by baff

I don't think it's to do with human rights matey. I think it's to do with civil rights.

Marriage offers you a certain amount of civil protection under the law. It recognises the family unit.

 

For myself I'm not really up for it.

I have two core reasons behind this.

The word "marriage" as opposed to say "civil partnership" is deeply connotated with religipon. And despite that there are many gay religious people, or that historically the church has offered sanctuary to gay people throughout those less tolerant ages...


The difference between us is that the two gay guys are sticking their cocks in each other and i am not sticking it to my mum. (Honest).

 

I do not believe the act of putting your knob in makes you more deserving than me. I do not recognise that someone having a sexual relationship with another member of the same sex makes them a more important member of society than me.


 

 

I think these points are incorrect.

 

Marriage. LEGAL MARRIAGE, that is marriage recognized by a GOVERNMENT has nothing to do with religion.

Athiests can get married. Buddhists can get married. In Europe in most countries,  you have TWO ceremonies. One is the LEGAL marriage. Two is the RELIGIOUS marriage. One is done by a government official. The other is done by a religious authority.

The term marriage, therefore, has TWO meanings, like many words do. There is a RELIGIOUS meaning, and aa LEGAL meaning.

For a long time gays have been getting married in religions that allow it, but in States that do not. They are having a RELIGIOUS marriage only, but not a LEGAL marriage.

Many people get LEGALLY married, but have no religious ceremony.

So marriage (LEGALL MARRIAGE) already equals civil partnership (like when athiests get married). There is no need for a new word.

 

Second, gay couples getting married are different than you and your Mom, by more than just the fact that they have sex.

Some people may get married, and NOT have children, or even be able to have children. For example, elderly couples in their 60's often marry, but cannot have children. Therefore marriage is NOT only a bout children.

What marriage is about is SUPPORT.

There are very few advantages of marriage. Child custody and child support does  not require marriage. Owning and dividing property, leaving property in a will does not require marriage.

 

What does marriage provide? SUPPORT.

You can get someone's pension by being a spouse, you can get on someone's insurance by being a spouse, you can get ALIMONY by being a spouse.

We can reform health insurance so that it's accessible to everyone, and being someone's spouse isn't necessary to get afforable health insurance.

But the difference in the gay couple, and you and your Mom, is that you are not likely to want ALIMONY from your Mob, or vice a versa if you two split up.

You might want the insurance or pension benefits, or tax breaks, and I don't see any reason not to have a "civil union" for these things.

But ALIMONY is reserved for MARRIAGE, when two people are committing to SUPPORT each other.

The gay couple would need Marriage, just like a straigth couple, not civil union.

You and your Mom could argue now the Straight couples are discriminating against you by getting married, and getting benefits.

So your argument for "civil unions" is the same, whether gay marriage exists or not.

However, the gay couple would need marriage, not civil union, becaues they are committing to SUPPORT each other, with the possiblity of ALIMONY.

 

  frodus

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/06
Posts: 2397

Justification is an event. Sanctification is a process.

6/26/11 3:24:39 PM#38

Well, six down and 42 to go.

It would have been proper to allow a vote by the people instead,probably would have had a different out come tho.

I really don't have a dog in this fight.since I'm a big state rights fan,they are more than welcome to do as they see fit.

Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.

  King_Kumquat

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Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 532

Seeking Talented Court Jesters.

 
OP  6/26/11 4:56:33 PM#39
Originally posted by frodus

Well, six down and 42 to go.

It would have been proper to allow a vote by the people instead,probably would have had a different out come tho.

I really don't have a dog in this fight.since I'm a big state rights fan,they are more than welcome to do as they see fit.

Well we're technically a represenative republic. So the people who voted for their state houses and the governer "did" technically vote for this outcome.

It can be confusing.

That's why I laugh at people like the Pauls, Rand and Ron, who are all anti government this and that. But technically they're hating themselves.

Seems appropriate.


Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.

  baff

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 9470

6/26/11 5:03:56 PM#40
Originally posted by King_Kumquat
Originally posted by baff

 

I do not believe the act of putting your knob in makes you more deserving than me. I do not recognise that someone having a sexual relationship with another member of the same sex makes them a more important member of society than me.

I think gay marriage is an injustice.

  

You don't get murdered for doing that tho' do you?

 

 For doing what?

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