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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Wizardry Online = Permadeath+Horror-Setting+Mazes (New details from E3)

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153 posts found
  centkin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 785

6/09/11 12:50:53 PM#21

I always "cheated" and made backup files for my wizardry games.  They were too long a games to have death be permanent and start over. 

What scares me here is the PVP aspect.  Losing your character to a hard and unlucky fight, or even a chest that turns you into a statue is one thing.  Being griefed and losing your character is quite another.

If this turns into -- the hardest monsters on the first floor of the dungeon are the players ready to kill you the second you step out of town then the game will fail.  It also is NOT very wizardry.  I did not see that kind of deceit portrayed anywhere.

Permadeath would definitely make for very strong guilds because if you wanted to get past any passable level you would need the backup -- plus if you died you would need to get back on your feet and be carried along for a while.

Another thing I would hope is that you could have significant numbers of alternate characters in such a game.  If you only get one character slot and you start from the beginning each time it would really stink.  I mean if you had several you could at least get a couple of characters up to mid-level so if your main character died it would not be a fallback to nothing.

----

For permadeath I would rather it be more like it was in the real wizardry.  You COULD send a rescue party after your old party that died in the dungeon and then try to revive them. 

----

If characters are disposable (few of them live more than a few hours each) I wonder if they will go with the old rolling methods where if you were really lucky or sat there rerolling long enough you could end up with some really superpowered stat characters.

  Gudrunix

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 147

6/09/11 1:00:40 PM#22
Originally posted by centkin

What scares me here is the PVP aspect.  Losing your character to a hard and unlucky fight, or even a chest that turns you into a statue is one thing.  Being griefed and losing your character is quite another.

Totally agreed.

I am open to a permanent death MMO, but perma-death and free-for-all PvP (read the articles, they have effectively no limitations on PvP) is a total non-starter.  That's a griefer's paradise.  Join the Mafia guild or die the second you step outside of town; but even if you join the mob, watch your back.

No thanks.  Next MMO concept please.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

6/09/11 1:21:33 PM#23

Sorry to burst bubbles (not really) but this is NOT the only MMO to talk about 'perma-death' and they ALL ended up toning down the concept until it was so watered it wasn't even worth mentioning. The reason is simple, it doesn't work. Not in an MMO.

 

Have you guys even considered for instance, being in a large guild. You're friends, you're family, then suddenly your guild leader dies in a tragic mix of bad decisions and lag. Poof. Head of your guild is now gone, maybe someone wants to step in maybe not. It sounds fun, if it were a book. The hero dies and all the people left behind get to pick up the pieces of move on. But in a persistant world? Not so much.

 

Also take cultural differences into account. In the East, they're fine with the most extremes of...actually, they're pretty extreme with just about everything from gaming to fetish alike, but that's another subject. In any case! They like uber grind, they like uber death, uber pvp, all that. It's not popular in the West. If a game like Aion is too 'hardcore' for people, do you really think a game like Wizardry will work? I know some of you yearn for the experience, but unless you're fine with playing the game practically by yourself (because that's about what the population will quickly be reduced to) you are going to need a big community and that, if nothing else, is something a game like this will lack. I suggest you guys learn another language and play overseas games. I did! Though for single-player games, not MMOs ;p

 

Also for those talking about the awesome that is Wizardry, take that 'is' and make it 'was'. Once again, those concepts were popular in an age where that was the only option. As more games got introduced, new playstyles and concepts were created and 'improved upon' (whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant, thus the quotes) and the likelihood of players going backwards is slim to none, no matter how jaded they are with what we have now.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  Kalafax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 501

6/09/11 1:25:42 PM#24

The fact that to this day Permadeath Multiplayers like Diablo are still up and running and have a very loyal hardcore base disproves what you say.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

6/09/11 1:37:05 PM#25
Originally posted by Dalgor

The fact that to this day Permadeath Multiplayers like Diablo are still up and running and have a very loyal hardcore base disproves what you say.

No, it doesn't. Diablo is not an MMO. It's not a persistant world with constantly updating content. It's a single-player game that people can join and play with or against you in. That's a huge difference from an MMO. Furthermore, Diablo's non-hardcore players FAR outnumber those who are hardcore, and if you actually played Diablo you would know this, so I don't know how you could even use this as an example. Diablo isn't entirely permadeath, only the highest set difficulty players have perma-death and most people don't play at those settings.

Further, most people who do have made use of item duping and hacking to get themselves uber gear and stats. So really, I'm not sure where you were going with that example.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

 
OP  6/09/11 1:46:51 PM#26

For those interested, this bit of Massively article is interesting:
To blunt the pain of a permanent character loss, players can stash gear, weapons, and valuables in a "cloak room" that is accessible to their next toons.

basically you can still retain your valuables if you manage your inventory well and do not play around the places for weeks with crowded inventory :)

Also:
Wizardry allows you to create small parties or groups of up to 100 players to tackle dangerous dungeons.

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

6/09/11 1:49:59 PM#27
Originally posted by Yuui

For those interested, this bit of Massively article is interesting:
To blunt the pain of a permanent character loss, players can stash gear, weapons, and valuables in a "cloak room" that is accessible to their next toons.

basically you can still retain your valuables if you manage your inventory well and do not play around the places for weeks with crowded inventory :)

I knew it! I knew they'd do something to make it a bit less harsh, but I actually think that's a good idea. That's a little like Salem's idea of perma-death, with your children being able to make use of all that you acquired over your last character's lifetime. To me, this makes a lot more sense.

The only issue is people will end up leaving all their Uber gear at home so as not to lose it, but that's sort of to be expected. Still, I see this is a reasonable compromise. I still think it will have a niche audience, but I see a lot less rage-quitting with this as a feature.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  Kalafax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 501

6/09/11 1:50:22 PM#28
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by Dalgor

The fact that to this day Permadeath Multiplayers like Diablo are still up and running and have a very loyal hardcore base disproves what you say.

No, it doesn't. Diablo is not an MMO. It's not a persistant world with constantly updating content. It's a single-player game that people can join and play with or against you in. That's a huge difference from an MMO. Furthermore, Diablo's non-hardcore players FAR outnumber those who are hardcore, and if you actually played Diablo you would know this, so I don't know how you could even use this as an example. Diablo isn't entirely permadeath, only the highest set difficulty players have perma-death and most people don't play at those settings.

Further, most people who do have made use of item duping and hacking to get themselves uber gear and stats. So really, I'm not sure where you were going with that example.

 Im specificaly speaking of the Hardcore players, which is why I stated it originally but you seemed to miss that, and I do play Diablo 2 LoD, imo if your not playing hardcore servers, your not really playing the game. Also duping and hacking is done on the open servers, not the b.net servers.

Is Diablo a complete MMO, no, but it was more a matter of showing that it can and does work, even looking at Wizardrys Perma Death, its still Perma Death lite, you can run back to your body your good, if you dont die in your ghost form, its not perma death.

Here I guess for you I will be a bit more specific, SWG Jedi system had a form of perma Death thats pretty similar, except it was based on if you died 3 times within a week you lost your jedi character permly. This system was amazing, and made your accomplishments mean something, it was even in a world with no perma death, those specific character still had it. To add to it, there were Player Bounty Hunters hunting them all across the galaxy because of NPC bounty missions to kill player jedi, so theres your PvP involved with Perma Death.

This required people to play smartly, or risk losing alot of work, thats what perma death is supposed to be getting across to the player.

Admittedly most people would not play their jedi if they had died 2 times that week untill it reset to avoid the perm death, but with the running back system Wizardry is showing that doesnt even need to be considered.

 

P.S. I just saw the post about the stash box for gear to be carried to other characters, this is a decent compromise, and while I do see people leaving because their best gear to keep it safe, by doing that they are just increases their chances of being killed themselves. Also I'm assuming that gear will have stat requirements if not level requirements, so you generally wont get to use it right off that bat on new characters. Smart players will stock up on lowbie items, and gold, and whatever other materials you can so that if a character perm dies you can remake and hit the ground running, this is the strategy used in games like Darkfall and Mortal albeit a little diffrently.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

 
OP  6/09/11 2:01:26 PM#29

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  Hekket

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 921

6/09/11 2:05:18 PM#30

It looks like Final Fantasy...

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

 
OP  6/09/11 2:08:08 PM#31


Originally posted by Hekket
It looks like Final Fantasy...


Well, both ff and this has same roots :)

CRPGS and JRPGS started off pretty much from Wizardry and rogue-like dungeon crawlers :)


EDIT:

Wizardry Online: Dungeon fly-through video

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  Kalafax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 501

6/09/11 2:17:21 PM#32

And further back from table top RPGs

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

 
OP  6/09/11 2:29:28 PM#33

Town Fly-through

REALLY loving the art style so far.

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1384

6/09/11 2:54:18 PM#34

sweet looks like from the character creation video, you can spend hours just rerolling for more starting points, I wonder about classes....

  Onigod

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/07
Posts: 692

6/09/11 3:04:32 PM#35

always wanted a game like this but i just watched some gameplay videos and the graphix animations are bad and combat is slow seems like another game not knowing how to make a true action game just adding dodge abilities does not create one if you tank every mob with your armor / buffs and heals

  snoocky

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/10
Posts: 494

6/09/11 3:04:40 PM#36

OMG I am shocked!!

Wizardry, such nice historic game, i loved the series....They could have made a good MMorpg of it...wait...

Now there's gonna be a mmorpg, made in Asia ?

 

Why? It's just like Aion, FF etc...

This is a real petty.....

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

 
OP  6/09/11 3:08:22 PM#37


Originally posted by snoocky
OMG I am shocked!!
Wizardry, such nice historic game, i loved the series....They could have made a good MMorpg of it...wait...
Now there's gonna be a mmorpg, made in Asia ?
 
Why? It's just like Aion, FF etc...
This is a real petty.....

Thats because Wizardry Even now is one of THE biggest things in Japan, so it makes sense for japanese company to make wizardry mmo.

EDIT:
Wizardry Online; Combat demo

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  UOlover

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/10
Posts: 331

6/09/11 3:26:06 PM#38

I like the dungeon design, tight corridors is what i think of when i think of a dungeon, not these huge open spaces

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

6/09/11 3:36:53 PM#39
Originally posted by Yuui

 

Thats because Wizardry Even now is one of THE biggest things in Japan, so it makes sense for japanese company to make wizardry mmo.

I would say that the Japanese love for the grind is directly attributable to copying that particular design aspect of Wizardry. :D

It's funny that the kind of Western created gameplay people found hardcore in games like Wizardry and Bard's Tale become referred to as 'Asian grindfest' in modern days.

  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1384

6/09/11 3:39:46 PM#40

meow great point

in the 80's if some of you actually played the originals we used to do  things like

Grind Greater demons for hours on end

Grind 4 groups of berserkers x99 for hours

Grind City Guards for hours on end aboard our frigates.

Grind Jousters for hours on end

AND WE LOVED IT!!!!!!

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