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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sandbox vs Themepark Discussion Thread

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470 posts found
  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/20/12 3:58:08 PM#161

"you used to play diablo 1 and it kind of sucked"

BUUUURN THE HERETIC!!!!1!!1!!11!1!eleven

:)

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/20/12 4:04:57 PM#162

Sandbox is just a much more fun time for me. Exploration on open worlds and player content is just fun and brings the community together. Notice most theme park games at end game just go stagnate. Only thing many do is raids, warzones, and dailies. Compared to a sandbox where you have untapped areas to have fun and just do what you want to make it more fun.

 

Theme parks games feel like im being led around like a dog on a leash.

Sandbox games ive never had the pleasure of standing around waiting for new content to be added.

 

Everyone likes their own thing, mine is a good sandbox, good crafting, good community, player housing for decoration, exploration, and so much more i just dont feel im getting from theme park games.

 

Hybrids though would be fun, huge open worlds with all the things i like but the story line you get from themeparks.

  Tokken

Elite Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 898

"I'm your Huckleberry!"

1/22/12 12:48:50 PM#163

Noob question:

So what is the definition of a Sandbox and a Theme Park game?

 

Can you give me games that fit those categories too Please.

UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, WOW, EQ2, CoH, CoX, VG, Aion, STO, CO, DCUO, LOTRO, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, DP, NW, TSW, MH, DDO, Rift, WS, ESO, Trove, LM

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/22/12 12:54:16 PM#164
Originally posted by Tokken

Noob question:

So what is the definition of a Sandbox and a Theme Park game?

 

Can you give me games that fit those categories too Please.

sandbox is more open, player content, real world stuff in a game, not tied down to one area or thing to do.

themepark is your more single player console style game, limited exploration, but good story line. Just more limited than a sandbox.

 

There is more to both but that should be good enough to understand.

 

Google has a good write up on both. Some like on, or the other, and sometimes both :)  Hybrids are mixing the two, do believe they are colled sandparks here.

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

1/22/12 1:00:24 PM#165

I prefer sandboxes but recently no big dev had the balls to make one

So the only hope for a sandbox is archeage

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

1/22/12 1:04:38 PM#166
Originally posted by dinams

I prefer sandboxes but recently no big dev had the balls to make one

So the only hope for a sandbox is archeage

there are a couple coming soon. But it all depends if they stick to their guns or turn it into another wow clone.

 

The repopulation is said to be like SWG and should be out this year

And i agree archeage looks so nice, it better stay true lol

And i think one more but forgot the name.

We have a chance for a sandbox soon, i hope.

  Shaydryn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 15

2/01/12 1:23:52 PM#167

Sandbox > Theme Park

End of story.

There is no comparison, really, for any serious gamer. Any game that a 1st or 2nd grader could jump right into without problems isn't the kind of game I (or the community of gamers with which I associate) have any interest in. To us, they are simply "mouthbreather" games. 

If you want to see what players can do with a sandbox, check out these videos:

The Lost Brotherhood: Episode I

The Lost Brotherhood: Episode II

This simply could not be done in a theme park game like WoW.

And I'm not advocating any specific game, either (I currently don't play a MMOG because I'm utterly disenfranchised and disappointed with the horrible, horrible selection). But, the flexibility and virtually limitless resources provided by the game in those videos is much more attractive than the relentless and stupifying "content" provided by 99.9% of the current MMOG market.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6668

2/20/12 9:40:05 AM#168
Originally posted by Tokken

Noob question:

So what is the definition of a Sandbox and a Theme Park game?

 

Can you give me games that fit those categories too Please.

A sandbox game will never have classes that straight jacket your avatar in a particular development path.  So if you see a game has classes it is a themepark game.  A sandbox game is usually skill based, where you select the skills you want.  They usually don't have character levels, but can if it is still skill based.

A sandbox game will usually have the economy rely on the crafters.  Usually the best stuff is made by crafters, not loot drops.  You kill a bear and it won't drop a sword of awsomeness.  Now you can kill a boss creature to get a rare item the crafters can turn into something unique.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/20/12 12:12:47 PM#169
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tokken

Noob question:

So what is the definition of a Sandbox and a Theme Park game?

 

Can you give me games that fit those categories too Please.

A sandbox game will never have classes that straight jacket your avatar in a particular development path.  So if you see a game has classes it is a themepark game.  A sandbox game is usually skill based, where you select the skills you want.  They usually don't have character levels, but can if it is still skill based.

A sandbox game will usually have the economy rely on the crafters.  Usually the best stuff is made by crafters, not loot drops.  You kill a bear and it won't drop a sword of awsomeness.  Now you can kill a boss creature to get a rare item the crafters can turn into something unique.

 A sandbox game can have classes.  Sandbox and themepark is strictly due to the level of freedom an individual is offered and the impact they can make on the world.

Istaria is one of the better sandboxes out there - economy, detailed crafting, housing/city building, things that need to be build/done that impact the world...  and it has classes.  Yes you can learn mutliple classes but they are still classes.

As opposed to Ryzom which doesn't have classes and for some reason is considered a sandbox despite nearly no economy, only a few styles of armor (you can have multiple and unique stats though), no way to impact the world at  all, and every magic style and fighting style work exactly the same way as every other magic and fighting style and crafting is all digging in the dirt.  Not very sandboxy IMO.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6668

2/21/12 3:23:47 AM#170

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

2/21/12 3:50:08 AM#171
Originally posted by Ozmodan

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

 

I think you can have classes to begin with, so long as the skills you can acquire are not limited, eg start as a fighter and then learn scouting skills or start as a scout and learn fighting skills etc
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/21/12 10:50:00 AM#172
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Ozmodan

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

 

I think you can have classes to begin with, so long as the skills you can acquire are not limited, eg start as a fighter and then learn scouting skills or start as a scout and learn fighting skills etc

 Refminor is righ tand Ozmodan is wrong.  You can have classes however you still need freedom of choice which is exactly what Istaria does.  It has classes however you can drop learn any class and the skills/abilities of them (many things anyway) stay with you.

So again having classes does not necessarily limit your choice, and therefore do not limit your freedom and so aare not the definiing feature of sandbox and themepark.   The definiting features are freedom and impact.  If the way the class system is set up limits your freedom it is not or is less of a sandbox, if it does not than it can still be a sandbox.

Istaria is most definately a sandbox.  You can learn every skill in the game, every fighting, magic, and craft.  It has a more indepth crafting system than probably every game on the market and it is one of the few games out there that actually lets the things you craft have an actual lasting impact on the world.  No doubt it is a sandbox.  The classes do not restrict your avatar as you can learn everything and so design your character any way you want.  Want to be a paladin with mage abilties, and monk dexterity  - no problem.

 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  psysention

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/11
Posts: 18

2/21/12 6:49:59 PM#173

you can not compare "themepark" and "sandbox" mmos

its total different ballpark

not to mention its even total different ballgame...

 

in themepark mmos there is generally 3 archetypes of class choice which are DPS/HEAL/Tank in certain cases there can be hybrids..

sandbox gives you freedom from level and class like Ultima Online or pre-cu SWG, where you can mix skills instead of choosing a class...

 

total different ballgame...

 

players who are casual and who don't have much time for gaming always goes for "themepark" mmos where they can sit in their major cities and use tools like battleground/warzone/warfront  or they can LFG for dungeons etc..

 

players who are hardcore gamers generally sick of themepark and waiting for the next UO where who plays more gets more cookies..

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/21/12 6:57:52 PM#174
Originally posted by psysention

you can not compare "themepark" and "sandbox" mmos

its total different ballpark

not to mention its even total different ballgame...

 

in themepark mmos there is generally 3 archetypes of class choice which are DPS/HEAL/Tank in certain cases there can be hybrids..

sandbox gives you freedom from level and class like Ultima Online or pre-cu SWG, where you can mix skills instead of choosing a class...

 

total different ballgame...

 

players who are casual and who don't have much time for gaming always goes for "themepark" mmos where they can sit in their major cities and use tools like battleground/warzone/warfront  or they can LFG for dungeons etc..

 

players who are hardcore gamers generally sick of themepark and waiting for the next UO where who plays more gets more cookies..

Are you totally sure that a sandbox cannot have classes and lvls? old SWG had classes. Are you sure you can't have a sandbox with the trinity? Or vice-versa is it possible to have a themepark without lvls and classes?

I'm not sure the definition of sandbox has been set this firmly yet.

What I've also noticed in sandboxes, is that although people don't HAVE to choose a class, they often build a badass tank, healer or dps, and judging from your logo, you might as well.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6668

2/22/12 8:22:20 AM#175
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Ozmodan

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

 

I think you can have classes to begin with, so long as the skills you can acquire are not limited, eg start as a fighter and then learn scouting skills or start as a scout and learn fighting skills etc

 Refminor is righ tand Ozmodan is wrong.  You can have classes however you still need freedom of choice which is exactly what Istaria does.  It has classes however you can drop learn any class and the skills/abilities of them (many things anyway) stay with you.

So again having classes does not necessarily limit your choice, and therefore do not limit your freedom and so aare not the definiing feature of sandbox and themepark.   The definiting features are freedom and impact.  If the way the class system is set up limits your freedom it is not or is less of a sandbox, if it does not than it can still be a sandbox.

Istaria is most definately a sandbox.  You can learn every skill in the game, every fighting, magic, and craft.  It has a more indepth crafting system than probably every game on the market and it is one of the few games out there that actually lets the things you craft have an actual lasting impact on the world.  No doubt it is a sandbox.  The classes do not restrict your avatar as you can learn everything and so design your character any way you want.  Want to be a paladin with mage abilties, and monk dexterity  - no problem.

 

 

What you are talking about in Istaria is not really classes.  I would have to say, it is a suggested skill design that the developers assigned a name to for starting players.  I was wrong about Istaria, it is a sandbox.  My apologies. 

I will refine my rule, you cannot have classes that restrict character development.  You are probably correct, any sandbox game would be foolish to not have at least initial class design because so many of today's players would be lost without it, as long as it did not restrict you from learning other skillsets.

Istaria is rather a bad example, it was a game with great potential that due to a bad development staff, never went anywhere.

 

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/22/12 8:26:32 AM#176
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Ozmodan

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

 

I think you can have classes to begin with, so long as the skills you can acquire are not limited, eg start as a fighter and then learn scouting skills or start as a scout and learn fighting skills etc

 Refminor is righ tand Ozmodan is wrong.  You can have classes however you still need freedom of choice which is exactly what Istaria does.  It has classes however you can drop learn any class and the skills/abilities of them (many things anyway) stay with you.

So again having classes does not necessarily limit your choice, and therefore do not limit your freedom and so aare not the definiing feature of sandbox and themepark.   The definiting features are freedom and impact.  If the way the class system is set up limits your freedom it is not or is less of a sandbox, if it does not than it can still be a sandbox.

Istaria is most definately a sandbox.  You can learn every skill in the game, every fighting, magic, and craft.  It has a more indepth crafting system than probably every game on the market and it is one of the few games out there that actually lets the things you craft have an actual lasting impact on the world.  No doubt it is a sandbox.  The classes do not restrict your avatar as you can learn everything and so design your character any way you want.  Want to be a paladin with mage abilties, and monk dexterity  - no problem.

 

 

What you are talking about in Istaria is not really classes.  I would have to say, it is a suggested skill design that the developers assigned a name to for starting players.  I was wrong about Istaria, it is a sandbox.  My apologies. 

I will refine my rule, you cannot have classes that restrict character development.  You are probably correct, any sandbox game would be foolish to not have at least initial class design because so many of today's players would be lost without it, as long as it did not restrict you from learning other skillsets.

Istaria is rather a bad example, it was a game with great potential that due to a bad development staff, never went anywhere.

 

So old SWG was a themepark because there were classes?

What makes you so sure the definition of sandbox is set that firmly? Where did you find this definition and what makes it more valid than any of the other definitions out there?

  psysention

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/11
Posts: 18

2/22/12 9:17:36 AM#177
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by psysention

you can not compare "themepark" and "sandbox" mmos

its total different ballpark

not to mention its even total different ballgame...

 

in themepark mmos there is generally 3 archetypes of class choice which are DPS/HEAL/Tank in certain cases there can be hybrids..

sandbox gives you freedom from level and class like Ultima Online or pre-cu SWG, where you can mix skills instead of choosing a class...

 

total different ballgame...

 

players who are casual and who don't have much time for gaming always goes for "themepark" mmos where they can sit in their major cities and use tools like battleground/warzone/warfront  or they can LFG for dungeons etc..

 

players who are hardcore gamers generally sick of themepark and waiting for the next UO where who plays more gets more cookies..

Are you totally sure that a sandbox cannot have classes and lvls? old SWG had classes. Are you sure you can't have a sandbox with the trinity? Or vice-versa is it possible to have a themepark without lvls and classes?

I'm not sure the definition of sandbox has been set this firmly yet.

What I've also noticed in sandboxes, is that although people don't HAVE to choose a class, they often build a badass tank, healer or dps, and judging from your logo, you might as well.

Old swg had "Skills" not classes

you had 250 skill points and you basically were able to grind skills.. there was around 34 skills... For example, marksmanship, teras kasi artist, scout, merchant, entertainer, dancer, bounty hunter, commando etc..

You can't have themepark without levels and classes bro.. because if you don't have level and classes than you give players the freedom of mixing skills.. there can be sandbox mmo with themepark mmo features like Tera Online.. But you can't have themepark  with sandbox features.. i am 95% sure..

whole point of themepark is there is no freedom in game.. whole point of sandbox is there are no boundries.. i think

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3496

2/22/12 9:32:21 AM#178

These models don't exist because everyone disagrees about the definitions of these models. Everyone has his/her opinion about it, but thats just it.

In most discussions about this, it roughly comes down to lineair vs freedom. But even the most sandy sandboxes have certain lineair gamemechanics or clear restrictions that limit freedom. At the same time certain themepark MMO's have added parallel progression paths for characters and non combat features that will give those games at least the impression of freedom.

I find it far more interesting how a lot of players who love to write about MMO's became set into a certain way of thinking. For example, how FFA PVP is now supposed to be a requirement for a sandbox MMO. Or on a different topic, how raiding automatically is associated with a gear treadmill. Or how holy trinity is the only way to have challenging PVE content.

The people who can actually think outside the box are getting flooded by posts of these badly programmed sheep who keep going through the same motions of 'mmo x is NOT a sandbox!' , 'yes it is!','no because it doesnt have FFA PVP!' etc

 

  Boanerges

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/04
Posts: 21

2/22/12 1:48:36 PM#179

 

This is an interesting discussion and one that I would have always answered “sandbox..!” without question.
 
However, now that I’m older and have a family, I’m finding it easier to hop on Themepark MMO’s to get that quick fix – feeling like I’ve accomplished something – and then being able to log off again with only a few minutes of game time here and there.  Then the occasional raid/instance with a group of friends once or twice a week.  As sad as that sounds, it’s all the time I can commit to these types of games any more.  I enjoy too many other things in life, not to mention other games as well.
 
But that being said, none of the new games in the last 8 years have replaced the experiences I had while playing the original MMORPG’s which I believe were closer to the Sandbox experience people talk about – creating game content with individual actions, no linear controls, etc. and something that was required back then - needing help from friends just to accomplish or even to figure things out
 
Sometimes a buddy would find something out and we’d all be like, “yeah, let’s go find it..!”  Now it’s right on your map.  
 
These games were based on friends sitting around a table with dice and pencils and paper in hand, creating, imagining and playing together.  Now games are single person storylines with kill tasks, and the ability to do just about any role alone - heal, DPS, tank. 
 
It’s a far cry from where they started and I’m not sure that Sandbox or Themepark is even as much of the problem as a loss of discovery, troubleshooting, investigation, exploration, consequence, risk and reward and the need for teamwork.
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

2/22/12 2:13:32 PM#180
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Ozmodan

No you are wrong.  A sandbox game cannot have classes.  Classes immediately take away choice which a sandbox game needs to be called a sandbox.

Obviously you don't understand what a sandbox is, it is freedom of choice to chose how your avatar develops.  Classes immediately restrict such choice.

I personally have never seen a game with classes that is essentially a sandbox.  Istaria is NOT a sandbox game although it does have elements of such with it's crafting.  It fails the test because it has classes which restrict your avatar.

 

I think you can have classes to begin with, so long as the skills you can acquire are not limited, eg start as a fighter and then learn scouting skills or start as a scout and learn fighting skills etc

 Refminor is righ tand Ozmodan is wrong.  You can have classes however you still need freedom of choice which is exactly what Istaria does.  It has classes however you can drop learn any class and the skills/abilities of them (many things anyway) stay with you.

So again having classes does not necessarily limit your choice, and therefore do not limit your freedom and so aare not the definiing feature of sandbox and themepark.   The definiting features are freedom and impact.  If the way the class system is set up limits your freedom it is not or is less of a sandbox, if it does not than it can still be a sandbox.

Istaria is most definately a sandbox.  You can learn every skill in the game, every fighting, magic, and craft.  It has a more indepth crafting system than probably every game on the market and it is one of the few games out there that actually lets the things you craft have an actual lasting impact on the world.  No doubt it is a sandbox.  The classes do not restrict your avatar as you can learn everything and so design your character any way you want.  Want to be a paladin with mage abilties, and monk dexterity  - no problem.

 

 

What you are talking about in Istaria is not really classes.  I would have to say, it is a suggested skill design that the developers assigned a name to for starting players.  I was wrong about Istaria, it is a sandbox.  My apologies. 

I will refine my rule, you cannot have classes that restrict character development.  You are probably correct, any sandbox game would be foolish to not have at least initial class design because so many of today's players would be lost without it, as long as it did not restrict you from learning other skillsets.

Istaria is rather a bad example, it was a game with great potential that due to a bad development staff, never went anywhere.

 

 Absolutely agree with you.  For a sandbox you cannot have classes that restrict character development, so it may be easier to just not have classes at all, but if they are there needs to be a way to mix/match them. 

And Istaria unforunately did have a very bad start and is only played by a few hundred/ few thousand?  people today.   Sigh.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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